Using Layers for Cold Weather Riding
11-30-12, 06:39 PM
#52
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stage in this thread. If you haven't tried it, and you're willing, give it a shot and let me know.
When I did try it, each layer twisted and bunched (despite my efforts to mitigate it) on the others, creating a really uncomfortable sensation. On top of this, the layers bound in the crook of my arm (elbow area) and armpits. It drove me nuts. I also found that the relative lack of wind blocking did not work for me (mainly in the colder temps). I still produced plenty of sweat, and though it did evaporate I still needed to shower at work, so pretty much the same situation for me.
That was my experience with it, and it sounds like you have had a different experience. Cool. Ride on.
Last edited by canyoneagle; 11-30-12 at 06:45 PM.
11-30-12, 06:52 PM
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And for people not caring? This thread has a number people caring enough to reflexively dismiss off hand something they've never tried. That's a complete lack of critical thinking, and it's unhealthy. It's a classic symptom of roadie disease. God help the newbies.
And I might have gotten through to 1 or 2.
11-30-12, 07:01 PM
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In an earlier post I'd mentioned that I had tried the multi-layer wool route and found it to not work for me, and the whole different strokes for different folks thing. I like wool. I really do. I wear merino under and mid layers, but thin. I simply prefer a thin shell rather than thicker wool on top.
When I did try it, each layer twisted and bunched (despite my efforts to mitigate it) on the others, creating a really uncomfortable sensation. On top of this, the layers bound in the crook of my arm (elbow area) and armpits. It drove me nuts. I also found that the relative lack of wind blocking did not work for me (mainly in the colder temps). I still produced plenty of sweat, and though it did evaporate I still needed to shower at work, so pretty much the same situation for me.
That was my experience with it, and it sounds like you have had a different experience. Cool. Ride on.
When I did try it, each layer twisted and bunched (despite my efforts to mitigate it) on the others, creating a really uncomfortable sensation. On top of this, the layers bound in the crook of my arm (elbow area) and armpits. It drove me nuts. I also found that the relative lack of wind blocking did not work for me (mainly in the colder temps). I still produced plenty of sweat, and though it did evaporate I still needed to shower at work, so pretty much the same situation for me.
That was my experience with it, and it sounds like you have had a different experience. Cool. Ride on.
11-30-12, 07:06 PM
#55
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It's funny you chimed in. This morning I wore 4 layers. I tried every possible movement and twisting I could think of with hands and bars and riding no hands. No binding whatsoever. Zero. So while I take you at your word, I wonder what it is you're doing differently that results in that problem.
I still experience a little inter-layer twisting on my thinner layers when I use more than one (typically below freezing) but it is not as pronounced and is tolerable.
So, my guess is variation in the wool weave makes a difference.
EDIT: I wonder if a flat weave outer layer would work better.
I'd still have the wind penetration issue, which I prefer to avoid - particularly as the temps get to 0F
Last edited by canyoneagle; 11-30-12 at 07:10 PM.
11-30-12, 08:03 PM
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I have no idea where your post came from. You must be having a very bad day.
If you spend any time here at all, you quickly realize the commuting "culture" (your term) will take function over looks any day. Have you seen some of the bike pics posted here?
If you spend any time here at all, you quickly realize the commuting "culture" (your term) will take function over looks any day. Have you seen some of the bike pics posted here?
No one's asking you to wear the number of layers I suggest. Sounds like many of you think fewer layers are necessary. Fine, try it out and see. What I've listed works for me, and I've used layering this way a long time. I've worn the shells with 1-2 layers like all those here who think it's the only right way to do it, and it's way less comfortable for me, hands down.
It's not "the only way to do it." People are disagreeing with your assertion of the most comfortable. If that works for you...cool.
I was part of roadie culture for many years. I've raced road and track, done many, many centuries, challenge rides, and fast club rides with people who race. I still do on occassion. So I know the drill. (Though I suspect that some of the loudest voices in this thread are something less than roadies--i.e. wannabes).
This makes no sense at all. Because I prefer a wind stopping outer shell (that's cut longer in the back for cycling), this makes me a roadie wannabe? LOL Am I (as you post) "immersed in roadie wannabe cycle geekdom"?? I should post some pictures...
Sure there are good ideas that come out of that culture, but many poor ones that are driven by the need of the bike industry to get people to constantly buy more stuff, the marketing for that stuff and advertising platforms like Bicycling ragazine that will pretend to objectively tell you how badly you need it.
Many of the threads I read here discourage cycle specific gear simply because of the price, and present alternatives at regular stores that are similar function. Also, look up some of the creative methods for crates, baskets, homemade panniers, etc. here. Fascinating stuff.
So I've seen a lemming-like, emperors-new-clothes mentality in that culture for years, and it has become worse over time. Problem is, it creates a barrier to people who aren't in that bubble, both in terms of looking silly and laying out cash for expensive specialized equipment most people simply don't need, especially commuters. I feel bad for the newbies here if mouthy roadie wannabes dominate this subforum.
Have you been here long? No group "dominates" this forum. I see an eclectic mix of hard core racers to retro grunge fredness. I think most of us fall somewhere inbetween.
Roadies and their wannabe followers are an insular group--friendly to their own, but reactive to anything challenging the roadie dogma, as this thread demonstrates so well. Just scan the posts here--it's not just that people are rejecting something they've never tried out of hand, they're being infantile about it (and their mother's dress them funny). That's typical roadie attitude. It sucks the fun out of cycling.
wow.. I'm sorry people disagreed with your chart.....
.
It's not "the only way to do it." People are disagreeing with your assertion of the most comfortable. If that works for you...cool.
I was part of roadie culture for many years. I've raced road and track, done many, many centuries, challenge rides, and fast club rides with people who race. I still do on occassion. So I know the drill. (Though I suspect that some of the loudest voices in this thread are something less than roadies--i.e. wannabes).
This makes no sense at all. Because I prefer a wind stopping outer shell (that's cut longer in the back for cycling), this makes me a roadie wannabe? LOL Am I (as you post) "immersed in roadie wannabe cycle geekdom"?? I should post some pictures...
Sure there are good ideas that come out of that culture, but many poor ones that are driven by the need of the bike industry to get people to constantly buy more stuff, the marketing for that stuff and advertising platforms like Bicycling ragazine that will pretend to objectively tell you how badly you need it.
Many of the threads I read here discourage cycle specific gear simply because of the price, and present alternatives at regular stores that are similar function. Also, look up some of the creative methods for crates, baskets, homemade panniers, etc. here. Fascinating stuff.
So I've seen a lemming-like, emperors-new-clothes mentality in that culture for years, and it has become worse over time. Problem is, it creates a barrier to people who aren't in that bubble, both in terms of looking silly and laying out cash for expensive specialized equipment most people simply don't need, especially commuters. I feel bad for the newbies here if mouthy roadie wannabes dominate this subforum.
Have you been here long? No group "dominates" this forum. I see an eclectic mix of hard core racers to retro grunge fredness. I think most of us fall somewhere inbetween.
Roadies and their wannabe followers are an insular group--friendly to their own, but reactive to anything challenging the roadie dogma, as this thread demonstrates so well. Just scan the posts here--it's not just that people are rejecting something they've never tried out of hand, they're being infantile about it (and their mother's dress them funny). That's typical roadie attitude. It sucks the fun out of cycling.
wow.. I'm sorry people disagreed with your chart.....
.
11-30-12, 08:20 PM
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Thanks. That's the whole point. Wore 4 layers wool layers on this morning's 14 mile commute (2 base thin layers, 1 thin sweater, and a medium weight sweater). I stayed warm and dry. You wouldn't know I was wearing 4 layers--I looked like I did in the photo in the OP. It just looks like I'm wearing a sweater.
As for freakishness, I'd say these guys look like Santas Elves,
but I wouldn't want to insult Santa's Elves.
And that's how every one else sees you who isn't completely immersed in roadie wannabe cycling geekdom.
As for freakishness, I'd say these guys look like Santas Elves,
but I wouldn't want to insult Santa's Elves.
And that's how every one else sees you who isn't completely immersed in roadie wannabe cycling geekdom.
Look, I have the mouth breather who rides with the Power Rangers saying I'm freakish for wearing layers. The irony compels me to respond. And the Power Ranger mouth breather guy keeps repeating "I don't need to try it" as if that proves a point.
And for people not caring? This thread has a number people caring enough to reflexively dismiss off hand something they've never tried. That's a complete lack of critical thinking, and it's unhealthy. It's a classic symptom of roadie disease. God help the newbies.
And I might have gotten through to 1 or 2.
And for people not caring? This thread has a number people caring enough to reflexively dismiss off hand something they've never tried. That's a complete lack of critical thinking, and it's unhealthy. It's a classic symptom of roadie disease. God help the newbies.
And I might have gotten through to 1 or 2.
I'm an outdoorsy guy. I've spent 48 winters in what is probably the coldest state outside of Alaska. Over those many years I've worn all sorts of things outdoors in the winter including multiple layers without a wind proof outer layer. Did that a lot of that while I was high school. The thing is that while layers work really well, a downside for me is that it takes longer to get dressed. Is it a big deal? No. But it's inconvenient enough that I don't want to wear any more layers than I need to stay warm.
That is why your idea is a non-starter for me. It's not a reflexive dismissal, it's one based on experience.
As for the Power Ranger/roadie wannabe deal, well, I've already established that I'm a freak. I not only ride bikes when it's well below 0 *F, I ski, snowshoe, spend weekends camping on frozen lakes without a tent, and I jump through holes in the ice, - all in the same kind of weather. Given that, I take a very pragmatic view of winter clothing choices. I'm actually wearing very little in the way of cycling gear in that pic. The coat is a running jacket I paid about $10 for at at thrift shop. Underneath that I'm probably wearing a fleece pullover I got at Old Navy (one of my favorites), and underneath any one of several base layers I have.
On my legs I'm wearing a base layer. On top of that my preferred choice is a pair of XC ski pants but if it's real cold I might put something on top of those or choose my Pearl Izumi Amfib bibs. Those are the one piece of expensive winter cycling gear I have. I tend to avoid wearing them unless it's pretty cold because they make a scritch-scritch sound when I walk. I can't tell if I'm wearing those or not in the pic.
The rest of the Rangers? They are a mixed group of guys who really like to ride. Many compete. None are pure roadies and some are about as far from a roadie as you can get. It's hard to tell but if you look close you'll see the bearded guy is riding a Pugsley. Never seen him on road bike. Some of those guys commute as well and tend to wear knickers rather than cycling shorts or tights. I'm riding a rigid framed mountain bike with drops. One of the guys who's not in the picture wears galoshes and rides a cruiser.
To me it's better for the newbies if you choose pragmatism over dogma. Natural and synthetic materials each have things to offer. Same with cycling and non cycling clothes.
Finally I leave you with one of my favorite winter cycling pictures featuring a fellow Ranger wannabe during a cyclocross race.
Last edited by tjspiel; 11-30-12 at 09:59 PM.
11-30-12, 09:48 PM
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It is quite possible that in my experience, my choice of sweaters made the difference. Many of the sweaters I own are the "irish" or "norweigan" type with heavy patterning in the weave, are "lumpy" in appearance, and I would bet dollars to donuts that contributed to it.
I still experience a little inter-layer twisting on my thinner layers when I use more than one (typically below freezing) but it is not as pronounced and is tolerable.
So, my guess is variation in the wool weave makes a difference.
EDIT: I wonder if a flat weave outer layer would work better.
I'd still have the wind penetration issue, which I prefer to avoid - particularly as the temps get to 0F
I still experience a little inter-layer twisting on my thinner layers when I use more than one (typically below freezing) but it is not as pronounced and is tolerable.
So, my guess is variation in the wool weave makes a difference.
EDIT: I wonder if a flat weave outer layer would work better.
I'd still have the wind penetration issue, which I prefer to avoid - particularly as the temps get to 0F
I also wonder if the layers are too tight? Everything I wear is knitted wool, and while not loose, they aren't tight either. I have a hand-knit Irish sweater. It has to be a half inch thick. I don't use it for cycliing. Good for shoveling snow, however.
I rode home tonight with three layers. I rode hard, and I sweat, but I was warm and dry throughout the ride. When I got home, dinner happened to be ready. I walked in, took one layer off, and sat down and enjoyed dinner with my family--no shower, no change of clothes. I wasn't sweaty, I didn't stink. I wasn't dressed funny. It works for me.
I don't think this is horse beating.
Last edited by Mercian Rider; 11-30-12 at 10:05 PM.
11-30-12, 10:13 PM
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11-30-12, 10:19 PM
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If you don't mind me asking. Which lights were those? It's getting dark really early over here and think it's time to buy some real lights if I am going to keep riding in traffic.
11-30-12, 10:50 PM
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11-30-12, 11:01 PM
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I use Dinotte lights. Although very nice, their taillights are expensive and not necessary. Their headlights are competively priced, bright and most importantly, reliable. A more reasonably priced suggestion for a taillight would be the "hotshot" from cygolight or planet bikes turbo (have both - work great).
11-30-12, 11:34 PM
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Veteran cyclist Ashley Molk mentored me when I first started riding with the local AYH club in the early 1970s at age 12--13. One of the things he taught me was to wear layers of wool for cold weather riding. Ashley would show up for a winter ride and exclaim, "this is a three sweater day." I've followed his advice in the years since and finally wrote down how I do it about 12 years ago. It works beautifully for me, YMMV. Here it is, FWIW.
It boils down to adding a layer for each 10 F degree drop in temperature.
65° long sleeve top, shorts
55° 2 long sleeve layers, pants
45° 3 layers, gloves, balaclava, wool socks, pants
35° 4 layers, etc., + 2 pr. socks, pants + 1 pr. long underwear
25° 5 layers, etc. + ear band (over balaclava), pants + 2 pr long underwear
15° 6 layers, etc. , pants + 2 pr. long underwear
● 1 layer = breathable long sleeve top. Layers can be thin base layers, combined with lightweight wool sweaters and medium weight sweaters as the outer layers.
● I prefer wool, especially a merino wool base layer.
● I don’t use windproof shells such as nylon jackets.
● If you aren’t a little cold the first 5-10 minutes of a winter ride you’re probably overdressed.
100% Merino Italian wool sweater on left was $1.99 at the local VOA.
Almost looks normal:
It boils down to adding a layer for each 10 F degree drop in temperature.
65° long sleeve top, shorts
55° 2 long sleeve layers, pants
45° 3 layers, gloves, balaclava, wool socks, pants
35° 4 layers, etc., + 2 pr. socks, pants + 1 pr. long underwear
25° 5 layers, etc. + ear band (over balaclava), pants + 2 pr long underwear
15° 6 layers, etc. , pants + 2 pr. long underwear
● 1 layer = breathable long sleeve top. Layers can be thin base layers, combined with lightweight wool sweaters and medium weight sweaters as the outer layers.
● I prefer wool, especially a merino wool base layer.
● I don’t use windproof shells such as nylon jackets.
● If you aren’t a little cold the first 5-10 minutes of a winter ride you’re probably overdressed.
100% Merino Italian wool sweater on left was $1.99 at the local VOA.
Almost looks normal:
I agree with you in general; I've recently discovered that wool pretty much beats every other cool weather fabric ever invented.
12-01-12, 12:26 AM
#65
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My goal is always the fewest layers that will work. Has done ok for me these last 40 years or so.
12-01-12, 12:33 AM
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Extremities are the key for me - hands, feet, and head. Take care of those and the rest are fine.
Best purchases I made were the Gore bikeware balaclava, and neoprene shoe covers. I rock the ski goggles when it's below freezing, but my core gets so warmed up that as long as the endpoints are cozy, i'm good.
One takeaway from the OP - cold weather need not be a deterrent to riding.
Best purchases I made were the Gore bikeware balaclava, and neoprene shoe covers. I rock the ski goggles when it's below freezing, but my core gets so warmed up that as long as the endpoints are cozy, i'm good.
One takeaway from the OP - cold weather need not be a deterrent to riding.
12-01-12, 04:20 AM
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I don't think it's really necessary to be so structured about it, or so serious about a method. What I wear depends on what's in the laundry and how energetic I feel, and only out 30 to 45 minutes you don't really have to be that careful unless it's really cold. Coming home today, low 50's, I was dressed the same as 95 degree summertime. Yesterday at around 28 degrees, about half the layers recommended in the original post. I was a little chilled, but half an hour who cares? I'll bundle up more if it's cold and raining or wet, mainly because I'll be going slower.
What I'm getting at is the chart may be fine if you're going an easy recreational pace or just like to be toasty, but it's a very individual thing. As others mentioned, it seems like a lot more layers than most people prefer.
What I'm getting at is the chart may be fine if you're going an easy recreational pace or just like to be toasty, but it's a very individual thing. As others mentioned, it seems like a lot more layers than most people prefer.
