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  1. #51
    tsl
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    I don't have these calipers, but I've been thinking about them. I haven't read the installation sheets either.

    So take this as speculative.

    From what I've seen in the sales material, the calipers are compatible with both older (flying shift cable) Shimano levers and newer (9000/7900/6800/6700/5700 under the bartape shift cables) Shimano levers.

    These two lever types have two different cable pull ratios. From what I've read, the TRP HY/RD accomplishes compatibility with either lever by means of having two different cable anchor points. Your experience sounds very much like using newer levers with the older brake anchor point. (Done the opposite way--older levers, newer brake anchor point--should fling you right off the bike with a light squeeze.)

    Again, don't consider this authoritative.

    I don't own them and am going only by the sales material I've seen. But it's something worth looking into, at least so that you can check it off the list.
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  2. #52
    Team Water Andy_K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsl View Post
    These two lever types have two different cable pull ratios. From what I've read, the TRP HY/RD accomplishes compatibility with either lever by means of having two different cable anchor points. Your experience sounds very much like using newer levers with the older brake anchor point. (Done the opposite way--older levers, newer brake anchor point--should fling you right off the bike with a light squeeze.)
    Well, I do have the newer Shimano levers (4600-series Tiagra), but I just looked at the anchor bolts and it isn't obvious to me what I could do differently. I assume it's something like the hubbub trick used on rear derailleurs, but it isn't clear to me which way would improve things and I can't find any specific information.

  3. #53
    tsl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
    Well, I do have the newer Shimano levers (4600-series Tiagra), but I just looked at the anchor bolts and it isn't obvious to me what I could do differently. I assume it's something like the hubbub trick used on rear derailleurs, but it isn't clear to me which way would improve things and I can't find any specific information.
    Your 4600s may be recently manufactured and purchased, but they are still the older design, using the "flying" shift cables rather than running the shift cables under the bar tape.

    IME with dual-pivot road brakes, calipers designed for either cable pull work well. The newer calipers (when used with older-style levers) just require less squeeze.

    So what I speculated on in my post above does not apply.

    I've since reviewed the installation sheet, the technical bulletin, and the installation video. None of them make any mention of how compatibility with the different leers is achieved. I wish I could remember where I saw mention of it.

    Hey look! Wild geese!

    Meanwhile, thank you for taking the bleeding edge position on this, and reporting your experience.

    Edit: Found it!

    Cable fixing position options optimize performance with 2.0 or 2.5 ratio levers -- Universal Cycles, product details, TRP HY/RD
    Doesn't say what those positions are, and frankly, since the manufacturer makes no mention of them, I'd want additional citations before completely trusting this one. But at least I know I wasn't hallucinating.
    Last edited by tsl; 10-01-13 at 04:04 AM.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsl View Post
    Your 4600s may be recently manufactured and purchased, but they are still the older design, using the "flying" shift cables rather than running the shift cables under the bar tape.
    Yeah, I know they have the old shift cable routing, but I could have sworn I read somewhere that they had the new brake cable pull ratio. I can't find it now and I'm starting to think I misinterpreted something. Shimano barely has any info about the 4600 stuff on their website.

  5. #55
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    Worked at home the past two days, so this morning was my first ride with the new and improved set up. The roads were damp but no rain. Braking performance was excellent, in keeping with my original glowing review.

    I contacted TRP and they tell me, "There was some confusion when they were first announced about different cable fixing options, but there is only one." They also say I could possibly improve the lever throw by opening up the reservoir and topping it off with mineral oil, but I'm not particularly keen on cracking open a sealed system as long as it's working well. If the performance stays strong I'll be happy with things the way they are.

  6. #56
    Capt Sensible
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    Di2 or Red 22 on a commuter bike? Better have a safe place to keep it. I'll wait for the technology to trickle down.
    SRAM have the S700 10 speed product, which is at a cheaper price point than the Red 22.

  7. #57
    tsl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
    I contacted TRP and they tell me, "There was some confusion when they were first announced about different cable fixing options, but there is only one."
    Thanks for getting that cleared up.
    My two favorite things in life are libraries and bicycles. They both move people forward without wasting anything.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
    I contacted TRP and they tell me, "There was some confusion when they were first announced about different cable fixing options, but there is only one." They also say I could possibly improve the lever throw by opening up the reservoir and topping it off with mineral oil, but I'm not particularly keen on cracking open a sealed system as long as it's working well. If the performance stays strong I'll be happy with things the way they are.
    Have you tried the "topping off" method? I'm about to do it (when I get some mineral oil) as my lever for the rear caliper is touching the handlebar without getting decent braking power.

    Got this link on howto: http://youtu.be/LNaj5l8hUEY?t=2m5s

  9. #59
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    I haven't gotten around to topping them off yet, but as the weather got colder the problem got worse so I'm pretty sure that's the issue. I picked up a bleed kit and I'm going to try the bleed instructions rather than "topping off" since the manual says you should bleed the brakes any time you open the system anyway. I hope to get to that this weekend.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tietze View Post
    Got this link on howto: http://youtu.be/LNaj5l8hUEY?t=2m5s
    I did this yesterday and the results are outstanding. I tried bleeding the front brake first, but I screwed it up (entirely my fault). I ended up going through the "topping off" procedure anyway. On the rear, I just went with topping off the reservoir and that was sufficient.

    He mentions re-installing your pads toward the end of the video, but I didn't hear any mention of removing them. Maybe that goes without saying. I had removed my pads and I'm kind of surprised I didn't manage to contaminate them anyway because I spilled a pretty good amount of mineral oil.

    Some pictures will clarify the potential difference this can make. Before doing this I was having a problem where the little bit of difference in lever travel resulting from a drop in temperature was causing me to lose braking.

    These pictures show my brake lever where it bottomed out after a 10-mile ride in 35-degree (F) weather.



    These pictures show my brake lever where it bottomed out after sitting in a warm room for a few hours.



    Note that I took those at a slight angle so that the gap between lever and bars would be visible.

    Here's where the lever bottoms out after I topped off the reservoir.



    So, yeah, I'm pretty happy with the results!

    I will say that it was a bit of a pain to do this. You need to position the bike in a stand such that the top of the reservoir is level with the floor. A very small amount of fluid makes a big difference, so it's pretty important to get as close to level as you can. If you have a workstand and an assistant that's probably not too bad. I did it on my own with just the workstand, but it was still manageable.

  11. #61
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Hmm , never had to touch my Magura HS 33's, once installed, just replaced brake shoes .

    I'm forewarned , thanks..

    Mechanical BB7 doesn't seem so fussy.. after all ..

    Of course, now I really dont have far to go * and so braking wear is reduced.

    * cut off a couple miles , in relocating where live, now the bikes I like most are overkill
    for where I use them.
    Last edited by fietsbob; 12-01-13 at 09:11 AM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
    I did this yesterday and the results are outstanding. I tried bleeding the front brake first, but I screwed it up (entirely my fault). I ended up going through the "topping off" procedure anyway. On the rear, I just went with topping off the reservoir and that was sufficient.

    Thanks, this is a great teaser for using some of the newly arrived mineral oil today!

    Regarding bleeding I recently got the following reply from TRP, when contacting support about the difference between the bleed and the topping off procedure:

    It is not necessary to bleed the brakes as the owner's manual suggests. That is something we recommended to the factory that they remove from the owner's manual, but they decided to leave it in. Topping off the system will remove some air that may be in the reservoir as long as you add enough oil so that when you replace the gasket and top cap there is some oil that spills out.

    The Tektro bleed kit will work with the HY/RD, but you shouldn't need to use it.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    Mechanical BB7 doesn't seem so fussy.. after all ..
    Well, I think the difference between these and the BB7's is that it's possible to get these set up just right. With the BB7's you just have to settle for close enough and then turn the dials regularly to keep them that way. I wouldn't go back.

    That said, it is a bit disappointing that these took so much work. If they were properly adjusted from the factory they should never have needed attention. From reading various comments in other places it sounds like there's a bit of variation in how they are out of the box. It seems almost a fluke that my front and rear were so similar. I'd like to hope TRP has this dialed in by now.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tietze View Post
    "Topping off the system will remove some air that may be in the reservoir as long as you add enough oil so that when you replace the gasket and top cap there is some oil that spills out."
    So as long as you spill oil everywhere you did it right. That's comforting because I did spill some oil.

  15. #65
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    Hmm , never had to touch my Magura HS 33's, once installed, just replaced brake shoes .

    I'm forewarned , thanks..
    More warning;you need to periodically maintain hydros. The pistons travel further than in disc calipers,exposing more of them to the elements. Had a women bring a Euro bike to my clinic with those to get the rear pads swapped. The caliper was filthy,and after swapping the pads,the brake made constant contact with the rim. The piston on the right side wouldn't retract fully. Wound up putting the old right pad back in and sending her to a shop. This is commonplace in the motorcycle world;riders run their pads down too far,corrosion gets on the pistons,then when the pads are changed the corrosion tears up the seals and you get leaks or stuck pistons. Hydro systems are low maintenance,not maintenance free.

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  16. #66
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Just saw in one of the mags that Diamondback is speccing a bike with these:
    http://www.diamondback.com/bikes-pav...ury-sport-disc

    Looks like a really nice bike for the price.

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  17. #67
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    OK, so here's my 1000 mile update on these brakes (actually, 1172 mile update).

    As I said above, topping off the hydraulic chamber restored braking functionality to the way it was when it was new. Then a while later a friend who also has a set of these asked me about them and mentioned that he had done the topping off thing but still had some issues. So I started watching them closely and sure enough I noticed that after 300 miles or so the levers were gradually, over time, pulling closer to the bars again. Both this and the original problem seemed an awful lot like the brakes just weren't adjusting for pad wear. But that's supposed to be one of the magic things about hydraulic brakes, right?

    So, I sent another e-mail to TRP and described my problem. Their response was something along the lines of "Oh yeah, we've got a redesigned gasket that will fix that for you." And a few days later the gaskets showed up in my mailbox.

    I'm a little sorry I don't have pictures to share at this point. The old gasket was a vaguely bowl-shaped rubber piece that sat on top of the hydraulic chamber. The new gasket is wedge shaped and slightly stiffer. I was a little skeptical, but after a couple of weeks I got around to installing the new gaskets. I put everything back together, gave one of the levers a squeeze and it went almost all the way to the bars. Then I squeezed it again, and it was a bit better. Then I squeezed it a third time and it was as it should be. The same thing happened with the other lever. It took me a second, but then it clicked -- that was self-adjustment, they're actually working now! At least, I think that's what's going on.

    I haven't put on enough miles since installing the new gaskets to have complete confidence, but I'm very hopeful. Braking performance is the best it's ever been and both levers are engaging at the same point in the pull with plenty of space between lever and bar but enough pull for good lever feel. Once again I feel like these brakes are the best thing since pneumatic tires.

    The original pads are already starting to wear thin. I don't think the front pad will last more than 1500 miles. This isn't entirely unexpected as I've read that even TRP recommends swapping them out in sloppy conditions and these pads have seen quite a bit of rain. Frankly, I'd be more than happy to replace them every 1500 miles for brakes as quiet and powerful as these have been. I'll probably try Kool Stop pads next, to support a local company as much as anything else, but if they're noisy I'll be looking for whatever TRP put in the box.

    I'll update again once I see whether or not the latest fix sticks. For now, I definitely recommend these brakes but I would suggest having the LBS verify that you're getting calipers with the new gaskets installed if you're buying them new.

  18. #68
    Team Water Andy_K's Avatar
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    So, bad news again. The brakes did not continue self-adjusting after the above update. At 1325 miles, the front pad was almost completely gone and the lever was pulling all the way to the bar. Hoping that this was just a problem of having worn the pad to the point wear the piston wouldn't adjust, I pushed the piston back in and installed new pads. The pads were close enough to the rotor that they scraped a little, but the lever pulled all the way to the bar without generating enough braking force to stop me on the bike. I repeated the previously recommended bail out measure but they had no effect. As an experiment, I put the old pads back in and the full lever pull didn't even get them in contact with the rotor.

    Once again I reached out to TRP tech support, and once again they were very helpful. This time they just decided to set me up with a new set of calipers. I'd heard rumors that they had fixed something since the first production run, so this didn't surprise me terribly much. I can't see any external differences from my old brakes, so I'm not entirely certain I've got the new ones even now. That said, I installed them last night and the brake feel is good right out of the box -- no need to open the hydraulic chamber, so that's something. Of course, the fact that I'm happy about not having to do extraordinary maintenance on day 1 is a good indication of how things have gone up to now.

    By this point, I've probably scared away anyone who was considering getting these brakes, but I have to say that in spite of how much trouble they've been I still love these brakes. TRP support has been great, and if they manage to get all the bugs worked out this will be a great product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
    So, bad news again. ... That said, I installed them last night and the brake feel is good right out of the box -- no need to open the hydraulic chamber, so that's something. Of course, the fact that I'm happy about not having to do extraordinary maintenance on day 1 is a good indication of how things have gone up to now.

    By this point, I've probably scared away anyone who was considering getting these brakes, but I have to say that in spite of how much trouble they've been I still love these brakes. TRP support has been great, and if they manage to get all the bugs worked out this will be a great product.
    Andy_K,

    After 3 months of running the new set of the TRP HY/RDs, how have the replacement set of brakes been working out? One of 2 bikes I'm considering purchasing comes with these.

  20. #70
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Andy, FWIW I put new K-S Disc pads in my BB7's and they've been quiet

    part of job, a lot of additional clean up of disc and caliper was done ..




    Raleigh Bike rep came by LBS with a Spyre equipped Bike ,

    so I did see they are more compact than the BB7..
    didn't take a test ride , they seatpost and frame were tall ..

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aragorn0404 View Post
    After 3 months of running the new set of the TRP HY/RDs, how have the replacement set of brakes been working out? One of 2 bikes I'm considering purchasing comes with these.
    I've put just over 500 miles on them and they're still functioning perfectly, but the weather has been relatively dry over that time so I'm not sure how much the pads have worn. A couple of times I've found myself wondering if they were requiring a little more lever pull, but they're still at the point where I'm measuring it by how much I can wiggle my fingers around behind the lever while the brakes are fully engaged and the difference (if any) is still small enough that I think it could just be my imagination.

    As a decision in buying a new bike I think I'd still prefer HY/RD's over any of the purely mechanical options (except maybe the Spyres), but if I were replacing brakes I'd be leaning toward the Gevenalle full hydraulics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    More warning;you need to periodically maintain hydros. The pistons travel further than in disc calipers,exposing more of them to the elements. Had a women bring a Euro bike to my clinic with those to get the rear pads swapped. The caliper was filthy,and after swapping the pads,the brake made constant contact with the rim. The piston on the right side wouldn't retract fully. Wound up putting the old right pad back in and sending her to a shop. This is commonplace in the motorcycle world;riders run their pads down too far,corrosion gets on the pistons,then when the pads are changed the corrosion tears up the seals and you get leaks or stuck pistons. Hydro systems are low maintenance,not maintenance free.
    i have tens of thousands of miles on shimano hydraulics and have never had and issue with corrosion. then again i change pads 2-3 times a year.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  23. #73
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    you need to periodically maintain hydros.
    not al hydros are disc brakes..

  24. #74
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Yeah,that was concerning hydro rim brakes.

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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Yeah,that was concerning hydro rim brakes.
    heh. i sometimes forget that there are other kinds of hydros.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

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