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Bike lane ends, almost right hooked Lesson learned

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Bike lane ends, almost right hooked Lesson learned

Old 07-29-13, 11:28 AM
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Thanks for taking my comments constructively. One skill I've learned through the years is how to overcome my shyness on the road and become more assertive. I now take about a third of the lane whenever the shoulder becomes too dangerous and narrow for me to ride on. That way I also have the shoulder as my bailout in case things get dicey and some jerk still tries to push me out of the way. Also, it sends a message to those drivers about my presence. There have been numerous reports in the past wherein the driver thought it was safe for them to pass the cyclist who is riding on the shoulder, but later on turned out that the shoulder is either too narrow or have debris that the cyclist needs to avoid, hence the collision. Thankfully that hasn't happened to me and I pray it stays that way.

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Old 07-29-13, 12:00 PM
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All's well that ends well!
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Old 07-29-13, 01:01 PM
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Maybe I'm a lot more cautious, but I would have been slowing down quite a bit before passing that van on the right. I've been right-hooked in a bike lane before, but I only consider it a right hook when the car passes me then immediately turns right.

I'm glad everyone's OK.
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Old 07-29-13, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzzatronic
Well signaling a turn doesn't mean they still don't have to yield to traffic in the bike lane. Rules of the road would dictate that the bike has right of way in the bike lane and the car needs to stop and wait for the bike to pass before crossing over into the bike lane for their turn.

I take some responsibility for not getting out of the disappearing bike lane sooner, but to say it's "totally" my fault I think is a little harsh.
It's not harsh, it's correct, the van was clearly ahead of you and clearly had it's turn signal on, you're at fault.
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Old 07-29-13, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by curly666
It's not harsh, it's correct, the van was clearly ahead of you and clearly had it's turn signal on, you're at fault.
Sorry but you are wrong. See page 78 of the Washington State Driver Guide.

"Bicycle lanes are marked with solid white lines. You must yield to bicycles in a bicycle lane. Do not drive in a bicycle lane except when making a turn, entering or leaving an alley, private road or driveway, or when you need to cross the bicycle lane to park near the curb. Do not park in a bicycle lane."

Simply signaling your intention to turn does not negate the requirement for the driver to yield to bicycles in the bicycle lane. Just being "ahead of me" does not change the fact that if they cannot make the turn in a legal and safe manner while still yielding to traffic, they must wait until the way is clear.

It was my fault for not anticipating what this driver was going to do, but I am in the right regarding who has the right of way and who is required to yield in this case. That of course will not heal a broken bone or worse if the worst case scenario plays out, but I would not have been the one to be deemed at fault based on Washington State law. It may be different where you live.
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Old 07-29-13, 02:06 PM
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Also anyone notice the pedestrian and dog on the sidewalk at 0:07? Looks like the owner pulls the dog back so it doesn't get hit by the van as well. Now I have to wonder if the van ever actually saw me at all and instead was stopping so they wouldn't hit the pedestrian and dog. :/

Looking in the rear camera you can see the pedestrian and dog jog across the sidewalk so the van doesn't hit them.
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Old 07-29-13, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzzatronic
Sorry but you are wrong. See page 78 of the Washington State Driver Guide.

"Bicycle lanes are marked with solid white lines. You must yield to bicycles in a bicycle lane. Do not drive in a bicycle lane except when making a turn, entering or leaving an alley, private road or driveway, or when you need to cross the bicycle lane to park near the curb. Do not park in a bicycle lane."

Simply signaling your intention to turn does not negate the requirement for the driver to yield to bicycles in the bicycle lane. Just being "ahead of me" does not change the fact that if they cannot make the turn in a legal and safe manner while still yielding to traffic, they must wait until the way is clear.

It was my fault for not anticipating what this driver was going to do, but I am in the right regarding who has the right of way and who is required to yield in this case. That of course will not heal a broken bone or worse if the worst case scenario plays out, but I would not have been the one to be deemed at fault based on Washington State law. It may be different where you live.
It's all about defensive riding and common sense, someone in front of you has their signal light on use you head and let them turn, someday you're going to be "dead right".
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Old 07-29-13, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by curly666
It's all about defensive riding and common sense, someone in front of you has their signal light on use you head and let them turn, someday you're going to be "dead right".
I completely agree and have mentioned multiple times in this thread the things I've learned to do better next time. However, this driver also made significant mistakes, most notably a late turn signal that I also missed. By law they are supposed to signal no less than 100 feet before their turn. They did not. In addition, they are supposed to yield to bikes in the bike lane, they did not. (I think what saved me was the pedestrian/dog on the sidewalk that they also almost hit).

If something bad had happened (thank goodness it did not), it would not have been "totally" my fault at all, it actually would have been the fault of the driver who could have been cited for two distinct violations in this case.

That fact doesn't help much if I'm laid up in the hospital (or worse), but to say it's "totally" my fault is not correct.
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Old 07-29-13, 06:49 PM
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I'm done, good luck.
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Old 07-29-13, 07:15 PM
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I'm surprised that it took 9 posts before someone decended from their high and mighty throne to blame you. It usually only takes one or two.
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Old 07-29-13, 08:00 PM
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Are you using a rear view mirror?
I have found it's one of those... once you get used to it you won't do without it.
Takes a bit to get used to and also to aim correctly.

Glad you avoided a crash and you learned something.

Jeff,
still fat
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Old 07-29-13, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzzatronic
Sorry but you are wrong. See page 78 of the Washington State Driver Guide.

"Bicycle lanes are marked with solid white lines. You must yield to bicycles in a bicycle lane. Do not drive in a bicycle lane except when making a turn, entering or leaving an alley, private road or driveway, or when you need to cross the bicycle lane to park near the curb. Do not park in a bicycle lane."

Simply signaling your intention to turn does not negate the requirement for the driver to yield to bicycles in the bicycle lane. Just being "ahead of me" does not change the fact that if they cannot make the turn in a legal and safe manner while still yielding to traffic, they must wait until the way is clear.

It was my fault for not anticipating what this driver was going to do, but I am in the right regarding who has the right of way and who is required to yield in this case. That of course will not heal a broken bone or worse if the worst case scenario plays out, but I would not have been the one to be deemed at fault based on Washington State law. It may be different where you live.
I do wonder how a court would see this issue of yielding. Requiring vehicles to yield is distinct from giving the cyclist right of way, and given that van was ahead of you and had initiated the turn, I'm inclined to say that it had the right of way, and that you, the cyclist, were obliged not to hit it.

In any case, most state laws are written in a rather slapdash manner, and do not properly account for vehicular cycling or even cycling on designated bike lanes. I suppose you could look at the imperative to 'yield to bicycles in a bicycle lane' as absolute, although typically yielding is done in regards to crossing or counter-moving traffic, not traffic in the same direction. Emergency vehicles, pedestrians, and sidewalk cyclist would be obvious exceptions.
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Old 07-29-13, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fat biker
Are you using a rear view mirror?
I have found it's one of those... once you get used to it you won't do without it.
Takes a bit to get used to and also to aim correctly.

Glad you avoided a crash and you learned something.

Jeff,
still fat
Yep, using a rear view mirror ... find that I spend too much time in it though. :/
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Old 07-29-13, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
I do wonder how a court would see this issue of yielding. Requiring vehicles to yield is distinct from giving the cyclist right of way, and given that van was ahead of you and had initiated the turn, I'm inclined to say that it had the right of way, and that you, the cyclist, were obliged not to hit it.
I think it's pretty simple really. Instead of "bike lane", substitute "oncoming lane" and instead of "white line" substitute "double yellow". In the case of a driver turning left across a double yellow line, they must yield to oncoming traffic. That's an absolute and if the person making the left is hit by oncoming traffic, it is the fault of the driver turning left since they did not yield the right of way.

Why would the same wording for yielding to bikes in the bike lane when turning across the bike lane be any different to yielding to oncoming traffic when turning across the oncoming lane? It would not.

But sadly my noob-ness around here has made me naive and apparently people get jollies out of blaming people who post incidents. So be it, blame me for not anticipating bad driver behavior but no one has pointing out where I broke any laws or regulations regarding biking in Washington state.

If anyone else has any constructive comments, I'll respond but other than that I'm done too.
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Old 07-29-13, 10:14 PM
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I think this one is on you. Bike lane or not, you have the most to lose from this transaction, you should have hit the brakes hard to stay behind him. One consideration: bike lanes are a new thing. I took drivers ed in the 80's when there were no bike lanes. I still get confused on what these sharrow things mean. I kinda agree with the sentiment, that just share the road unless you are going to wall off the bike lane from motor traffic, like they are doing in some places. In driving, technically you should not pass anyone on the right, the right lane is supposed to be reserved for slow traffic. I do this all the time in my car, as do most motorists here in the states because we have the Sunday tourists who like to cruise the left lane. However I was once visiting friends in Germany who let me drive their car and when I passed someone on the right, they almost had a cardiac. I will pass cars on the right, but only when they are queued up at a stoplight, and even then it's a risky affair. You should be thankful that motorist saw you and stopped. When I ride, I consider any accident as my fault unless someone plows me from behind, which brings up another point. It seems to be the rule, that if you hit someone from behind, it's automatically your fault. In this case, you would have side swiped them, but still, you probably would have been cited for following too close.
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Old 07-30-13, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Buzzatronic
I think it's pretty simple really. Instead of "bike lane", substitute "oncoming lane" and instead of "white line" substitute "double yellow". In the case of a driver turning left across a double yellow line, they must yield to oncoming traffic. That's an absolute and if the person making the left is hit by oncoming traffic, it is the fault of the driver turning left since they did not yield the right of way.

Why would the same wording for yielding to bikes in the bike lane when turning across the bike lane be any different to yielding to oncoming traffic when turning across the oncoming lane? It would not.

But sadly my noob-ness around here has made me naive and apparently people get jollies out of blaming people who post incidents. So be it, blame me for not anticipating bad driver behavior but no one has pointing out where I broke any laws or regulations regarding biking in Washington state.

If anyone else has any constructive comments, I'll respond but other than that I'm done too.
Dude, calm down. I wasn't trying to find fault with you, just really wondering if 'yielding to the bike lane' would apply for traffic (i.e. cars and bikes) moving in the same direction.

It's certainly a foreign concept to me, anyway, and I've been riding and commuting the road in pretty bike friendly towns since '87; doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong, just that I'm unfamiliar with the concept. Also, as I said, requiring one user to yield does not necessarily grant another user right-of-way. There is legitimate uncertainty in a situation like you experienced, and I'm curious if there's any other information that might clarify which reading of the law is correct.
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Old 07-30-13, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by alhedges
At least here, cars aren't supposed to turn across a bike lane like that; they are supposed to merge into the bike lane, and then turn from the bike lane. Most people don't know that, though.
Same here.
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Old 07-30-13, 04:22 PM
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Buzzatronic,

Are you legally required to stay in the bike lanes? My impression is that you are more interested in avoiding future collisions than assigning legal fault (my priority also).

* I haven't bicycled in Seattle, but based on my experience on the East Coast I think you are naive about how clear cut the law is written and enforced. On the east coast many LEO and judges and especially juries can't believe that the law means motorists must sometimes yield to bicyclists, and many automatically consider the bicyclist is at fault. While this is often overturned on appeal it is time consuming and expensive. If Washington is different, consider yourself fortunate.

* If you want to ride defensively to avoid these collisions (highly recommended) I agree with your plan to leave the bike lane sooner. Regardless of the law, it is very difficult for the driver to look for oncoming and cross traffic, and bicyclists passing from behind on the right. As a result, you will almost always be safer riding through intersections (including shopping mall entrances/commercial driveways) in the middle of the lane - you can signal to let following motorists know you are aware of them but don't consider it safe to ride too far right (bike lane) where you are not visible.

In most states this is legal; even if it is not (e.g. Oregon?) you're usually so much less likely to be right hooked that it's worth doing.

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Old 07-30-13, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AngeloDolce
Buzzatronic,

Are you legally required to stay in the bike lanes? My impression is that you are more interested in avoiding future collisions than assigning legal fault (my priority also).
Certainly, my goal is to stay safe, not win a court case if something bad happens. The laws in WA actually call out that a cyclist can leave the bike lane and take the full lane to prevent a potential right hook (as well as other reasons that keep the cyclist safe).

Next time I'll be in the full lane well before this section if there is traffic building up at the light.
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Old 08-02-13, 06:44 PM
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All part of the fun.
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Old 08-03-13, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Buzzatronic
I think it's pretty simple really. Instead of "bike lane", substitute "oncoming lane" and instead of "white line" substitute "double yellow". In the case of a driver turning left across a double yellow line, they must yield to oncoming traffic. That's an absolute and if the person making the left is hit by oncoming traffic, it is the fault of the driver turning left since they did not yield the right of way.

Why would the same wording for yielding to bikes in the bike lane when turning across the bike lane be any different to yielding to oncoming traffic when turning across the oncoming lane? It would not.

But sadly my noob-ness around here has made me naive and apparently people get jollies out of blaming people who post incidents. So be it, blame me for not anticipating bad driver behavior but no one has pointing out where I broke any laws or regulations regarding biking in Washington state.

If anyone else has any constructive comments, I'll respond but other than that I'm done too.
Its pretty typical of the forum. Don't let it get to you too much. I am convinced that even if you were hit from behind while riding straight down the road, someone on the forum would blame you for something. You seem like a reasonable person, just looking to share their experience and learning. Hopefully it helps someone else avoid a similar situation.

In my mind it seems pretty clear that the white van was not actually following the rules of the road, and that you realize that your ass is on the line even if you are in the right. Bike lanes are actual lanes of traffic, so you can't just turn across them, cut someone off and stop. You realize this, and you realize that doesn't matter much when you collide.

I have similar videos of things like that happening and posting and reviewing them have helped me avoid those situations in the future. I've found that no matter how you think you handled it in the moment, it always different when you review the footage. Riders who don't have video, only have their memory of their actions which I've found not be 100% accurate.

Thanks for sharing the video and your experience.
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Old 08-05-13, 08:21 AM
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Sorry to say, that was 100.0000% your fault. The van had its indicators on FAR before you got to it. You should have slowed and dropped behind the van and waited for it to turn, or perhaps moved to the left to get around it a bit faster depending on what oncoming (and overtaking) traffic was doing.
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Old 08-05-13, 09:28 AM
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Reminds me of this interesting video I recently saw about how the Dutch have redesigned intersections for better safety for bikes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA
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Old 08-10-13, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DX-MAN
Turn signals have become optional.
I agree a lot of people don't use turn signals, but the mini-van in question was using them. If this was to be an accident, it wouldn't have been the mini-van driver's fault.
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Old 08-10-13, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
Sorry to say, that was 100.0000% your fault. The van had its indicators on FAR before you got to it. You should have slowed and dropped behind the van and waited for it to turn, or perhaps moved to the left to get around it a bit faster depending on what oncoming (and overtaking) traffic was doing.
I agree. As the driver manual the OP linked to says on page 78, "Do not pass on the right – Do not pass on the right side of vehicles in traffic at intersections. Motorists turning right may not look for, or see, a bicycle passing on the right."

As far as how to avoid the situation in the future, I'd say slow down. I have a few spots I ride where cars want to make a right and I use it as an opportunity to grab a sip of water. I let the cars go and merge in as there is an opening. Sometimes this is further back and I make cars go slow behind me (i.e. I take the lane), other times it is at the last second. Regardless, I have found going slow, and being ready to speed up and take the opening when it is there, works for me. YMMV.

The mirror is probably a good idea too, although I haven't found them as useful for me as other people here have.
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