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-   -   it's going to be getting darker.... (http://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/911832-its-going-getting-darker.html)

cyccommute 10-09-13 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidfast7 (Post 16146925)
Everyone else can stay out of it because the Germans control almost all EU regulation ... including bike lights. Without German regulations, we'd still have expensive and poorly engineered dynamo lighting system (or the junk that one sees in the US like Magic Shines.)

Or, without German regulations, you could have a vibrant and dynamic market where improvements are moving along so rapidly it is difficult to keep up with them. Where bicycle light technologies making huge strides per year while becoming cheaper and fitting the needs of the consumer better.

Personally, I like to go a bit faster than brisk walking speed which is what the StVZO/TA regulations seem to be limiting cyclist to. I don't usually side with the anti-regulation crowd but a little bit of Wild Westness is sometimes good for innovation.

The Magic Shines and their clones aren't junk, by the way. I've owned several and they all work extremely well...especially considering the cost. Lots of value for the money.

acidfast7 10-09-13 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJ80 (Post 16147003)
Typically not the case so I doubt it.



The market forces (i.e. return on investment) have to be there or no one builds anything no matter what the regulations are.


J.

No, in both cases.

The German law states to any road-worthy bicycle must be equipped with a 3A light (even used bikes must conform to the law). So there are no market forces at work except one. The one that reduces the cost of the dynamo such that €100 bikes can still be made to conform to the law (that's why super inexpensive dynamos exist).

Shimano dynamos for €20

http://www.amazon.de/SHIMANO-Nabendy...ds=nabendynamo

Me thinks that you need a break from capitalism if you think "no one builds anything no matter what the regulations are." The government just hypothetically forces all construction companies to spend 10% of their work week on a non-profitable function or not be eligible to build anything.

Is this so confusing?

acidfast7 10-09-13 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16147017)
Or, without German regulations, you could have a vibrant and dynamic market where improvements are moving along so rapidly it is difficult to keep up with them. Where bicycle light technologies making huge strides per year while becoming cheaper and fitting the needs of the consumer better.

Personally, I like to go a bit faster than brisk walking speed which is what the StVZO/TA regulations seem to be limiting cyclist to. I don't usually side with the anti-regulation crowd but a little bit of Wild Westness is sometimes good for innovation.

Based on the current state of the US government and America, in general, I politely disagree with you (as would most of the first-world).

cyccommute 10-09-13 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbubbles (Post 16127199)
I bought one for the heck of it, not that I need anymore lights.

The quality is superb. Extremely lightweight. The o-ring mount is very sturdy. Although I prefer quick release mounts so I changed it.


I just got one to. Very impressed. The thing is extremely tiny. It has a couple of warts, however. It's more floody than I like, however. I like the tighter beam that my current lights have better. Both beams are on all the time as well. Would be better with an option to run the beams independently but I suspect that would make the circuitry more difficult.

I may use this one for a few rides but it's going off to my daughter for her to use.

JohnJ80 10-09-13 03:52 PM

So you say that because the German government mandates it, for profit companies will build a product and don't care if it's profitable or not? I'm sorry to say that a very tough lesson awaits you if you ever get into product development of any kind.

Also probably explains why dynamo powered lights are basically a curiosity in the tiny/niche bike lighting market (in other words, really tiny).

<yawn>

J.

acidfast7 10-09-13 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJ80 (Post 16147078)
So you say that because the German government mandates it, for profit companies will build a product and don't care if it's profitable or not? I'm sorry to say that a very tough lesson awaits you if you ever get into product development of any kind.

Also probably explains why dynamo powered lights are basically a curiosity in the tiny/niche bike lighting market (in other words, really tiny).

<yawn>

J.

I would bet in the first-world more bike are sold annually with dynamos that without. I think you need to get out/around more. Not only are they mandatory in the EU (which has 650M+ potential customers) but bicycle ownership is much higher here.

:lol:

Market analysis much?

acidfast7 10-09-13 03:58 PM

because I'm not a jerk, here's a point of where to start looking (EU bikes have dynamos):

http://top10hell.com/top-10-countrie...es-per-capita/

calling them niche resides somewhere between naīve and ignorant ... hmmmm.

enigmaT120 10-09-13 04:19 PM

How fast can you ride in the dark and see, with the lights you use over there? I only average about 11 mph, but on downhills I get up to at least 35 mph if it's not foggy or raining too hard to see. My generator powered light is plenty bright at speed. When I'm climbing hills I go really slowly, and the light is dim, but it's still enough.

I do wish we had some uniformity in the way our light output is described. Some manufacturers use lumens, some use lux (they don't directly convert), and some think telling you how many watts their bulbs use tells you something. Peter White took a bunch of pictures of how various beams looked at night and has them on his web site, but he can't get every light tested that way. I think most of the ones he tested did meet the German specs.

I forgot until now about this sub-forum:

http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdispl...ng-amp-Gadgets

I should start reading that one, too.

acidfast7 10-09-13 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enigmaT120 (Post 16147148)
I do wish we had some uniformity in the way our light output is described.

It's pretty standardised in most places. Here's a brief synopsis:

http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tes.../index_en.html

RWBlue01 10-09-13 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidfast7 (Post 16147082)
I would bet in the first-world more bike are sold annually with dynamos that without. I think you need to get out/around more. Not only are they mandatory in the EU (which has 650M+ potential customers) but bicycle ownership is much higher here.

:lol:

Market analysis much?

Are dynamos mandatory or is having a light mandatory?
Is it all EU or just some countries? Looking at the photos it appears to only be some countries.

Do they MAKE a company make these dynamos or is there a market for them and they are filing the market?
Or to put it a different way, is this a capitalist venture or a socialist?

How do they deal with antique bicycles?

acidfast7 10-09-13 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWBlue01 (Post 16147168)
is this a capitalist venture or a socialist?

is this a serious question?

RWBlue01 10-09-13 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidfast7 (Post 16147176)
is this a serious question?

Serious question.
If the government is paying/subsidizing the production it is a socialist thing.
If the government is not paying/subsidizing the production/sales then it is a capitalist thing.

BTW, Please answer the rest of the questions.

acidfast7 10-09-13 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWBlue01 (Post 16147168)
Are dynamos mandatory or is having a light mandatory?
Is it all EU or just some countries? Looking at the photos it appears to only be some countries.

Do they MAKE a company make these dynamos or is there a market for them and they are filing the market?
Or to put it a different way, is this a capitalist venture or a socialist?

How do they deal with antique bicycles?

Current political landscape

German standards (DIN) are usually adopted quite quickly by German-speaking countries (and become EIN or EN). The UK usually tries to resist and does a reasonable job because they have a lot of not connecting infrastructure (cars/trains). Most people on the continent just go with DIN. The poorer eastern countries usually adopt DIN because there's no way to finance alternative testing. In addition, newer countries much match safety in the current EU countries, which usually includes just adopting stuff like bicycle standards. In addition, the market is already saturated with those products at very low price points.

As far as reading every countries law, my Slavics are not good enough, but the way things are going DIN will just be adopted and the UK will leave the EU within 10 years due to the Germans not bending to the lack of financial regulations that the UK wants and Frankfurt is demanding more banking be transferred there.

German bike laws (help yourself as this one of the better analyses in English)

http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tes.../index_en.html

Shimano is not a German company.

Antique bikes are out of law and can be fined.

acidfast7 10-09-13 05:01 PM

EU v. D

http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tes...ebruik_en.html

acidfast7 10-09-13 05:02 PM

raw data:

http://www.mtb-biking.de/stvoz/beleuchtung.htm

tsl 10-09-13 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16147017)
Personally, I like to go a bit faster than brisk walking speed which is what the StVZO/TA regulations seem to be limiting cyclist to. I don't usually side with the anti-regulation crowd but a little bit of Wild Westness is sometimes good for innovation.

Hear, hear!

RWBlue01 10-09-13 05:32 PM

Thank you, you have crazy legal system.

The EU countries all have different requirements and the German StVZO rules are the strictest. So there is no simple rule that can tell whether a bicycle lamp is EU-legal (i.e. whether it's legal to use on all public roads in the EU, well, ok, by complying with StVZO you're fairly certain, but then you also need the K-markings for Germany, France and Uk have their own sets etc. It won't work to say "This is legal because it is legal in my country" because the rules have not been harmonised and each country may have their own rules in various areas).

JohnJ80 10-09-13 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWBlue01 (Post 16147362)
Thank you, you have crazy legal system.

The EU countries all have different requirements and the German StVZO rules are the strictest. So there is no simple rule that can tell whether a bicycle lamp is EU-legal (i.e. whether it's legal to use on all public roads in the EU, well, ok, by complying with StVZO you're fairly certain, but then you also need the K-markings for Germany, France and Uk have their own sets etc. It won't work to say "This is legal because it is legal in my country" because the rules have not been harmonised and each country may have their own rules in various areas).


The other conclusion that is inferred in all of this is that EU eyes, and apparently German eyes in particular, are much weaker than say "first world" eyes or even those in the Netherlands (who have essentially thrown out their bicycle light rules - good for them!) since the EU and Germans are apparently "blinded" by lights with symmetric beams. As opposed to here in the "first world" where pedestrians and drivers often will say "Nice Lights" to those of us with even more blindingly bright (apparently to only German and "first world" eyes though) than Magicshine ones.

Again, for people who don't seem to be blinded by automobile headlamps, it seems quite strange that this has become a weighty problem for just those who have to look at people riding bicycles at night. It sure does look like it's keeping a lot of bureaucrats employed writing all of those bicycle light regulations. In fact, this might be a good time to propose a new Bud Light commercial - "We salute you, Mr. Bicycle Light Regulation Writer Man!"


J.

acidfast7 10-10-13 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJ80 (Post 16147623)

don't seem to be blinded by automobile headlamps

You didn't read anything did you?

:sigh:

:facepalm:

Slaninar 10-10-13 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidfast7 (Post 16148297)
You didn't read anything did you?

:sigh:

:facepalm:

If I put this at the rear:
http://www.cateye.com/en/products/detail/TL-LD155-R/

And this on the bars:
http://www.cateye.com/en/products/detail/HL-EL010/

Will I be legal in Germany, or do I have to have a hub/dynamo bicycle mounted lights?


From a friend who's lived (not just travelled) in many European countries, I've heard that:
"Germany is the country where everything works, no fuss or complications, but it is much more relaxed than other regulated countries like Switzerland for example."


My mentality would probably fit better in Italy though. :)

cyccommute 10-10-13 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidfast7 (Post 16147091)
because I'm not a jerk, here's a point of where to start looking (EU bikes have dynamos):

http://top10hell.com/top-10-countrie...es-per-capita/

calling them niche resides somewhere between naīve and ignorant ... hmmmm.

Per capita is only one way of looking at the data. As a market, i.e. total number of bicycle sales and ownership, the US is a behemoth. With 100 million bikes on the road and 13 million annual sales, the US market is larger than the combined markets of 8 of the countries on the list. Only China is has a larger market.

acidfast7 10-10-13 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16148536)
Per capita is only one way of looking at the data. As a market, i.e. total number of bicycle sales and ownership, the US is a behemoth. With 100 million bikes on the road and 13 million annual sales, the US market is larger than the combined markets of 8 of the countries on the list. Only China is has a larger market.

Good thing that the EU now has 28 countries.

20M bikes are sold per year in the EU market ...

data here (page 18):

http://www.coliped.com/docs/issuu/Eu...ion%202012.pdf

That crushes the US by at least 50%.

Calling the dynamo market a niche market lies somewhere between naīve and ignorant.

acidfast7 10-10-13 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaninar (Post 16148402)
If I put this at the rear:
http://www.cateye.com/en/products/detail/TL-LD155-R/

And this on the bars:
http://www.cateye.com/en/products/detail/HL-EL010/

Will I be legal in Germany, or do I have to have a hub/dynamo bicycle mounted lights?


From a friend who's lived (not just travelled) in many European countries, I've heard that:
"Germany is the country where everything works, no fuss or complications, but it is much more relaxed than other regulated countries like Switzerland for example."


My mentality would probably fit better in Italy though. :)

Not legal for road usage because the front light doesn't have a beam height/beam distance limiter.

I like Germany. It's no fuss and works really well. It's also quite cheap.

I'd rather go on holiday elsewhere, including an annual Easter trip to Tuscany for a week or so or to Romania/Hungary for some horseback riding in the countryside. But, day to day life in Germany is quite pleasant.

JohnJ80 10-10-13 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidfast7 (Post 16148297)
You didn't read anything did you?

:sigh:

:facepalm:


You really are a literal person, aren't you?

:sigh:

:facepalm:

J.

acidfast7 10-10-13 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidfast7 (Post 16148551)
Good thing that the EU now has 28 countries.

20M bikes are sold per year in the EU market ...

data here (page 18):

http://www.coliped.com/docs/issuu/Eu...ion%202012.pdf

That crushes the US by at least 50%.

Calling the dynamo market a niche market lies somewhere between naīve and ignorant.

edit: seems that the US market is quite close:

http://nbda.com/articles/industry-ov...-2012-pg34.htm

although I don't have access to the raw data.

my arguments stands: calling dynamos a niche market really shows a failure to understand the bicycle market in the West (or first-world, if you choose).


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