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Old 10-18-13, 05:05 PM   #126
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Without going into a long diatribe about currency exchange, international trade exchange rates, taxes, tariffs, and economies of scale, if the man says it's a BSO in the Isles, then HE probably knows what he is talking about.
Forget about the cost, and get on with the test.

You might want to check into the SS/FG forums and look for recommedations on hub and chain maintenance.
IIRC your drive side rear hub bearings will need more attention than the rest of the hub bearings.
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Old 10-18-13, 05:22 PM   #127
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A used bike... better than yours and for less. Do you disagree?

And I'd still love an exact cost and model/specs for your bike, if you'd like your challenge taken seriously I'm going to need that.

Since at a glance this>Yours
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SE-Lager-2...item2a324b5aec

brand new yada yada yada lower price etc, known good brand etc.. so what's going to make it inferior to the mango?

Oh and can you tell me what the hell is the deal with these?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Single-Spe...item41773a215b

Is that some story and they just always sell them like that? (Dunno if you'll know about them OP)

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Old 10-18-13, 05:33 PM   #128
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A used bike... better than yours and for less. Do you disagree?

And I'd still love an exact cost and model/specs for your bike, if you'd like your challenge taken seriously I'm going to need that.
I wanted a new BSO to really see how bad it is (my hypothesis is not bad) ... so used won't work for this test.

I don't have the exact specs, just what's on the page ... let me know if you want more info ... they're all the same

http://www.mangobikes.co.uk/size-chartspec/

595mm and £295
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Old 10-18-13, 05:36 PM   #129
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I wanted a new BSO to really see how bad it is (my hypothesis is not bad) ... so used won't work for this test.

I don't have the exact specs, just what's on the page ... let me know if you want more info ... they're all the same

http://www.mangobikes.co.uk/size-chartspec/

595mm and £295
Ah I didn't think it could be the 295.. as it doesn't come with brakes according to what I could find. Let me know your opinion of that there SE. And I still disagree with you, I think you could have gotten more for the money but having looked around the UK stuff for sale.. wow it'd be some digging it looks like, but if you can only spend BSO bucks you might as well do the digging. And no I still don't consider 300 pounds to be a BSO price
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Old 10-18-13, 05:48 PM   #130
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Ah I didn't think it could be the 295.. as it doesn't come with brakes according to what I could find. Let me know your opinion of that there SE. And I still disagree with you, I think you could have gotten more for the money but having looked around the UK stuff for sale.. wow it'd be some digging it looks like, but if you can only spend BSO bucks you might as well do the digging. And no I still don't consider 300 pounds to be a BSO price
comes with full brakes £295. it kicks my ass but i like being limited by ss and i'm getting stronger.

honestly, the cost of the bike less than 4 tanks of gas for the car ... or the cost of two months of bus usage ... that's BSO territory for most people.


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Old 10-18-13, 05:53 PM   #131
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To us here.. other then certain SUV and truck drivers that's a lot more then the cost of gas 4 times. I haven't ridden the bus in ages so that I couldn't speak to really.. but even doubling what I used to pay that's around 6 dollars a day times an average of thirty is only 180 bucks.. just to give you relative ideas of cost for here. What's the current minimum wage over there anyhow? Locally I believe we're at 9 USD an hour (haven't been on the bottom of that spectrum in many years either so can't give an exact amount on that one either). Federal it's 7 USD. On a straight across conversion not accounting for differences in society the price for your bike raises eyebrows over here for it's quality level. And are you riding it in just SS? Fixed will seriously kick your ass and make you stronger IMO.

And I'm guessing by the lack of comment the SE meets your criteria for besting the "Challenge"?
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Old 10-18-13, 06:03 PM   #132
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https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

minimum wage in UK for 21 and older is: £6.31

the typical household £16k after tax if that helps with analysis.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/394...live-on-16-034

as far as the SE goes, it's the same price and i don't see any advantages. for example, i don't see brazed-on regions for brake cables or a future Nexus 3 upgrade? plus it's of dubious assembly and customer service and probably hadn't been assembled/ridden/disassembled prior to shipping?
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Old 10-18-13, 08:40 PM   #133
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I hope you enjoyed your time in Germany. It is a wonderful place and the bikes and components are excellent.

Please, stop using DM prices, upon DM to € conversion most absolute prices went up roughly 50% (except at Aldi, which is why the brothers gained such an immediate and fast following).

Welcome to 2013 pricing.
I was there when the DM was converted. Didn't see that much change except for tipping, which previously was typically rounding up the pfennigs (change) up to the next higher DM, changing to the next higher €. Also prices of the the cheapest ice cream cone went up from 1 DM to 1 €. Both cases amounting to a 100% increase.

As far as bicycles and accessories, I didn't see significant changes in price by Euro as of 2002. In fact I bought two commuter beauties for my daughters in Euro at the local Opel dealer who also had a small LBS within. A 3 speed Calvin (built in Germany by Biria) fully equipped as a commuter with Sachs Torpedo 3 speed IGH Coaster brake, Nokian 622-47 tires, etc., etc. Cost 365 € which was about $320 at the currency exchange rate back then. Bought a ZeroSeven Express for about 500€ (about $460) equipped with Sachs 7 speed IGH with coaster brake, balloon tires 26" x 2.125" and the normal commuting equipment. Of course bikes were completely assembled and ready to ride when we rode them home from the dealer, about 1KM. Never needed any adjustments by the seller.
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Old 10-18-13, 10:43 PM   #134
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I had forgotten that a euro was once less than a dollar in its early years (1999-2002?). However, once it was in broad circulation (after 2002), it quickly shot up to between $1.20 and $1.60.

I confirm that Brooks saddles are typically cheaper in Germany too. I can generally find a B17 standard for around 50-60 euros ($70-$80). That's cheaper than in England (where they're made) or in the US (land of cheap stuff!). However, most bike components as well as complete bikes are about the same price in euros in the EU as they are in dollars in the US, and that's true for Germany too.

Acidfast7 mentioned the cost of driving in England and how long he would have to use his bike before it paid off. It's not only that gas is 2x to 3x higher, or that parking is astronomical (about $70/day in central London), but London also has a "congestion charge" of $16/day. That is, if you drive through London, you must pay this fee just for using the roads. So in London, at least, a £300 bicycle would quickly pay for itself.
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Old 10-19-13, 07:30 AM   #135
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I was there when the DM was converted. Didn't see that much change except for tipping, which previously was typically rounding up the pfennigs (change) up to the next higher DM, changing to the next higher €. Also prices of the the cheapest ice cream cone went up from 1 DM to 1 €. Both cases amounting to a 100% increase.

As far as bicycles and accessories, I didn't see significant changes in price by Euro as of 2002. In fact I bought two commuter beauties for my daughters in Euro at the local Opel dealer who also had a small LBS within. A 3 speed Calvin (built in Germany by Biria) fully equipped as a commuter with Sachs Torpedo 3 speed IGH Coaster brake, Nokian 622-47 tires, etc., etc. Cost 365 € which was about $320 at the currency exchange rate back then. Bought a ZeroSeven Express for about 500€ (about $460) equipped with Sachs 7 speed IGH with coaster brake, balloon tires 26" x 2.125" and the normal commuting equipment. Of course bikes were completely assembled and ready to ride when we rode them home from the dealer, about 1KM. Never needed any adjustments by the seller.
I respect your opinion and love for German bikes ... because they are great.

IIRC, you're the only guy that uses a rear Römer Jockey back seat for your kids in the US, while everyone goes with a trailer I'm bringing the MTB over here just for that reason (to install a Römer).

I think you caught the € at the beginning of circulation, jp is correct, at the beginning it did stay relatively the same (or even slightly) cheaper than with the $, then it abruptly shot up to 1.6€:1$.

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Old 10-19-13, 07:46 AM   #136
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https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

minimum wage in UK for 21 and older is: £6.31

the typical household £16k after tax if that helps with analysis.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/394...live-on-16-034

as far as the SE goes, it's the same price and i don't see any advantages. for example, i don't see brazed-on regions for brake cables or a future Nexus 3 upgrade? plus it's of dubious assembly and customer service and probably hadn't been assembled/ridden/disassembled prior to shipping?
Lagers come with cable clips, the frame is chromoly. they do have eyelets for fenders and racks (the rear is a single set so you'll need a long screw). Comes with actual Tektro dual pivots etc. Almost forgot, does yours have a bottle opener built in?
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Old 10-19-13, 07:51 AM   #137
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does yours have a bottle opener built in?
I drink pints ... One of the few advantages of England!

FWIW, I'm not convinced of the failures of HiTen steel compared to Alu, which is one of the reasons I bought the bike because I want to see/fell the differences over a long period of time. My hunch is that HiTen steel is fine for an average commuter (like me 12 miles RT).
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Old 10-19-13, 07:54 AM   #138
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I drink pints ... One of the few advantages of England!

FWIW, I'm not convinced of the failures of HiTen steel compared to Alu, which is one of the reasons I bought the bike because I want to see/fell the differences over a long period of time. My hunch is that HiTen steel is fine for an average commuter (like me 12 miles RT).
Um, I'm guessing you read what I said wrong.. chromoly not alum.
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Old 10-19-13, 07:58 AM   #139
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Um, I'm guessing you read what I said wrong.. chromoly not alum.
My apologies, there's a carnival about 20m away from my door (no joke) and I can't hear anything.
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Old 10-19-13, 08:10 AM   #140
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I had forgotten that a euro was once less than a dollar in its early years (1999-2002?). However, once it was in broad circulation (after 2002), it quickly shot up to between $1.20 and $1.60.

I confirm that Brooks saddles are typically cheaper in Germany too. I can generally find a B17 standard for around 50-60 euros ($70-$80). That's cheaper than in England (where they're made) or in the US (land of cheap stuff!). However, most bike components as well as complete bikes are about the same price in euros in the EU as they are in dollars in the US, and that's true for Germany too.

Acidfast7 mentioned the cost of driving in England and how long he would have to use his bike before it paid off. It's not only that gas is 2x to 3x higher, or that parking is astronomical (about $70/day in central London), but London also has a "congestion charge" of $16/day. That is, if you drive through London, you must pay this fee just for using the roads. So in London, at least, a £300 bicycle would quickly pay for itself.
I live in NE England, which is cheaper than London.

The bus is £4.70 round trip per day and still requires about 2km walking on one end (20mins). Plus the waiting time of about 5-15 mins on each end (this is not German/Switz when considering public transport) and the actual 22min bus ride (the bus has actually broken down twice!). So, with travel costs, plus time consumed walking, I'm thinking roughly £10/day is a reasonable cost recovery estimate.

If I take the cost of the £295 bike + £25 for metal pedals/toe clips + £20 bike computer + £40 lights + £20 lock, that I'm roughly at £400 and should recover my costs in 2 months of 20-day bike commuting.

Let's see how it pans out.

God that bus system is horrible, I'd suggest that it's more depressing than what I saw in the US, or Eastern Europe for that matter. I think I was the only paying customer (most had a retired/jobless/disabled/student pass).
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Old 10-20-13, 10:46 AM   #141
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no problems. keep on truckin'

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Old 10-21-13, 01:48 PM   #142
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looking good ... rainy season seems to be starting

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Old 10-21-13, 02:25 PM   #143
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I think you mistook a break in the Rain for the non Rainy season..

British Summer Music Festival wear is featuring Bumper-shoots & Wellies after all .
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Old 10-21-13, 02:28 PM   #144
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I think you mistook a break in the Rain for the non Rainy season..
Summer Music festival wear is Wellies after all .
"not so much rain" in this part of the UK, or so I'm told.
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Old 10-21-13, 02:47 PM   #145
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That means its less than a foot deep in the streets.
Unlike the Cascades and Sierras, on the NA west coast,
I cannot Imagine the Pennines creating that much of a Rain Shadow .

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Old 10-21-13, 02:57 PM   #146
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That means its less than a foot deep in the streets.
Unlike the Cascades and Sierras, on the NA west coast,
I cannot Imagine the Pennines creating that much of a Rain Shadow .
I head that the Pennines break it all up and that to the west of them, it's a nightmare. So far, it's been quite nice as I'm pretty coastal.
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Old 10-22-13, 06:17 AM   #147
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I happen to find the original topic AND the tangential topic interesting.

For what it's worth, I bought a cheap fixie from Nashbar in 2008, for only $304. It was a really good deal, and I liked the bike a lot. I didn't secure it well enough, and it got stolen. I had to replace some parts quickly, and I had to reassemble it, since it was badly put together, but being a former bike mechanic, I didn't mind. However, I would normally dis-recommend a mail order bike to most people. It had an aluminum frame, and the bike's overall weight was pretty low, maybe about 20 pounds. Nice ride, too.
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Old 10-22-13, 01:29 PM   #148
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Old 10-22-13, 01:30 PM   #149
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I happen to find the original topic AND the tangential topic interesting.

For what it's worth, I bought a cheap fixie from Nashbar in 2008, for only $304. It was a really good deal, and I liked the bike a lot. I didn't secure it well enough, and it got stolen. I had to replace some parts quickly, and I had to reassemble it, since it was badly put together, but being a former bike mechanic, I didn't mind. However, I would normally dis-recommend a mail order bike to most people. It had an aluminum frame, and the bike's overall weight was pretty low, maybe about 20 pounds. Nice ride, too.
interesting ... i hope this bike lives up to the expectations

sorry to head about your old bike
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Old 10-23-13, 01:34 PM   #150
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not so bad ... light rain in morning ... no rain in evening ...

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