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-   -   Hit & Run (http://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/917725-hit-run.html)

JohnJ80 10-14-13 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16159385)
I've been car-free or car-light for decades. I can't think of a single instance where an airzound, a 10000 lumen light, a reflective vest, high viz clothing, or a big red flag would have made me safer. Not one.

#bike stockholm syndrome

You're not advocating that lights and the capability of being seen by car drivers doesn't matter, are you?

J.

iconicflux 10-14-13 09:25 AM

I'm probably only alive because of my airzound horn. I think it has saved my life at least 3 times now and I *don't* ride dangerously. The first time it saved me I was walking my bike across a crosswalk at an intersection with a light telling me to cross. The driver of the car that almost hit me was staring at cross traffic and not paying attention to what was in front of him. The airzound got his attention and he ran off the road to avoid hitting me and hit one of the metal streetlamp poles.

Cheers,
Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16159385)
I've been car-free or car-light for decades. I can't think of a single instance where an airzound, a 10000 lumen light, a reflective vest, high viz clothing, or a big red flag would have made me safer. Not one.

#bike stockholm syndrome


rumrunn6 10-14-13 09:39 AM

chilling to watch

italktocats 10-14-13 09:44 AM

People who look but dont see, dont see

Until policebikes (inc lights) dont get hit anymore, lights wont save you

spare_wheel 10-14-13 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJ80 (Post 16159397)
You're not advocating that lights and the capability of being seen by car drivers doesn't matter, are you?
J.

I am arguing that cycling for transportation is safe. I am also arguing that the value of safety prophylactics is over-rated.

spare_wheel 10-14-13 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iconicflux (Post 16159469)
I'm probably only alive because of my airzound horn. I think it has saved my life at least 3 times now and I *don't* ride dangerously. The first time it saved me I was walking my bike across a crosswalk at an intersection with a light telling me to cross. The driver of the car that almost hit me was staring at cross traffic and not paying attention to what was in front of him. The airzound got his attention and he ran off the road to avoid hitting me and hit one of the metal streetlamp poles.

Cheers,
Kevin


the vast majority of cyclists do not have an airzound and yet somehow cycling is still safe. morover, the relatively small risk of injury or death is due to negligence and criminal behavior by motorists (and cyclists), not because cyclists fail to decorate themselves like christmas trees.

anyone who rides around central amsterdam at night will note many cyclists without bike lights. the same is also true in portland. safety is the primary responsibility of the people driving the killing machines, not their victims.

JohnJ80 10-14-13 01:30 PM

If you can't see the cyclist because they are not properly visible, then I think you will find that it's a shared responsibility.

J.

Dwayne 10-14-13 01:36 PM

Do you know where his front light is/was mounted? Just asking because towards the end of the video I see the flashing, but it's also lighting up his forearms and the rear of his cable coming off the bars, so the light wasn't mounted on the handlebar? There's also a shadow cast on his right forearm, possibly from the handlebar... was the light pointing upwards? Makes me wonder whether the light was mounted such that it made it much less effective from the front.

CommuteCommando 10-14-13 01:49 PM

Glad the cyclist is OK. Brakes or no brakes, it wouldn't have helped in that situation. Clearly the motorist was at fault. One thing I would have done differently is take the entire lane, which was obviously "sharrowed". Being more out in the traffic lane would have made him more visible. (No guarantee of not getting hit, of course, but it does improve the odds, and gives a split second more reaction time to the biker.) There are sharrow lanes where I live, and I have found that "owning" the lane is very safe, otherwise cars will try to squeeze you as one car did at about 1:20 in the video. I have not done those sharrow lanes at night, and rarely ride at night, so can't say for sure on that. I do run a very bright flasher on the rear, and a very bright light on front (Steady at night, flash in the daylight)

boattail71 10-14-13 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolerb (Post 16158203)
What with so many trying to blame the guy on the bike? The car was at fault.

At night, if a bike does not have lights, the car is NOT at fault. That this bike had sufficient lighting is the question. In my area legally the solid white light in front must be bright enough to see (a long distance, forgot the # of feet). This video shows little if no light cast on the darker parts of the street (this one would not be legal in my area). If I were this cyclist with this minimal lighting at that speed I would assume I am invisible to those in front of me. That is, I would expect vehicles might turn in front therefore I would give my self an out (by speed/stopping ability, or escape route L or R) if I have no out then I would slow my speed and proceed when I'm sure the driver sees me. Sorry, I fear my opinion will be unpopular and I feel sorry for this cyclist as I occasionally find myself in situations at night with no lights (or only a rear blinky) and I'll continue to try not to put myself in these kinds of situations.

longbeachgary 10-14-13 03:51 PM

Why are so many of you such dicks? You expect this cyclist to blow his air horn while applying the brakes AND jump on the sidewalk to avoid the collission. Sure when you slow things down on youtube it's much easier to avoid this stuff. Try getting out and actually riding.

boattail71 10-14-13 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16160200)
the vast majority of cyclists do not have an airzound and yet somehow cycling is still safe. morover, the relatively small risk of injury or death is due to endemic negligence and criminal behavior by motorists, not because cyclists fail to decorate themselves like christmas trees.

anyone who rides around central amsterdam at night will note many cyclists without bike lights. the same is also true in portland. safety is the primary responsibility of the people driving the killing machines, not their victims.

Agree spare_wheel. As a driver of 30+ years, I have never (yes, never!) hit nor almost hit a cyclist (or even caused a cyclist a scare), day or night. NEVER! But obvioulsy we cyclists need not put ourselves into overly dangerous situations i.e., busy/fast streets at night especially w/o sufficient lighting. No-brainer kind of stuff.

boattail71 10-14-13 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longbeachgary (Post 16160669)
Why are so many of you such dicks? You expect this cyclist to blow his air horn while applying the brakes AND jump on the sidewalk to avoid the collission. Sure when you slow things down on youtube it's much easier to avoid this stuff. Try getting out and actually riding.

Gary, open your mind. No one's trying to be a dick. This is good commentary - we're exploring different ways of thinking. No one here wants to see a cyclist get vitimized. What factors contribute to our safety or unsafe practices?

DX-MAN 10-14-13 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16159385)
I've been car-free or car-light for decades. I can't think of a single instance where an airzound, a 10000 lumen light, a reflective vest, high viz clothing, or a big red flag would have made me safer. Not one.

#bike stockholm syndrome

Airzound WILL get someone's attention if you're close enough; the example in the video, not necessarily so. I've gotten people's attention VOCALLY, from more than 3 car lengths away. I've also had cars flash their brights at me because my 144-lumen headlight was adjusted a bit high. Your other examples, I have little experience with; ONCE, I had a kid trailer with a flag attached, and got a LOT of space on the road.

Blinkie tail light, though, is a BIG thing; I've had several drivers pull up next to me at stop signs and lights, and TELL me they were pleased that I had the light, they could SEE me!

boattail71 10-14-13 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iconicflux (Post 16159469)
I'm probably only alive because of my airzound horn. I think it has saved my life at least 3 times now and I *don't* ride dangerously. Kevin

Airzounds are kinda cool and interesting and I'd like to try one but I've not seen any around here (bunch of bikes too, I live in a platinum cycling city). In my panic situations (maybe one or two every five years or so) I scream/yell to get the drivers' attention - so far never been hit (knocking wood). With a horn, I wonder if I'd have the wherewithall to fine my horn button? Though fun to blast away once I did find it.

boattail71 10-14-13 04:21 PM

[QUOTE=longbeachgary;16160669] You expect this cyclist to... applying the brakes AND/OR jump on the sidewalk to avoid the collission. QUOTE]

Um, well, I'd guess I'd say yes to that question. I think we all do this in some ways or others whether we're conscious of it or not - those of us who've been doing this for many decades anyway. Not saying that some very rare cases we have no options but... self preservation, ya know?

longbeachgary 10-14-13 04:56 PM

[QUOTE=boattail71;16160740]
Quote:

Originally Posted by longbeachgary (Post 16160669)
You expect this cyclist to... applying the brakes AND jump on the sidewalk to avoid the collission. QUOTE]

Um, well, I'd guess I'd say yes to that question. I think we all do this in some ways or others whether we're conscious of it or not - those of us who've been doing this for many decades anyway. Not saying that some very rare cases we have no options but... self preservation, ya know?

Quote me right Dude.

the sci guy 10-14-13 05:14 PM

if you look you can clearly see he's got blinky lights because its shining on his forearm and brake cables. AND if you try to take it frame by frame right before/at impact, you can see the light shine very brightly on the back of the car right above the wheelwell/door handle level.

its not the cyclists fault. clearly the cars fault.

also, a cyclist who is wearing a camera during a ride is definitely the same kind of person who knows to have a bright light on the front.

stop *****ing and blaming the cyclist. guy knew what he was doing.

boattail71 10-14-13 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the sci guy (Post 16160864)
if you look you can clearly see he's got blinky lights because its shining on his forearm and brake cables. AND if you try to take it frame by frame right before/at impact, you can see the light shine very brightly on the back of the car right above the wheelwell/door handle level.

its not the cyclists fault. clearly the cars fault.

also, a cyclist who is wearing a camera during a ride is definitely the same kind of person who knows to have a bright light on the front.

stop *****ing and blaming the cyclist. guy knew what he was doing.

Shadows!

Explain then why we can see his shadow in front of him every time he rides under a street light or a car approaches from behind? My commuter light is much too bright to see my shadow in those cases.


I'm sure the cyclist knows plenty with the camera and all and maybe the crash was unavoidable. I'm just sayin' that light sure wasn't very bright.

unterhausen 10-14-13 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 16160696)
Gary, open your mind. No one's trying to be a dick. This is good commentary - we're exploring different ways of thinking. No one here wants to see a cyclist get vitimized. What factors contribute to our safety or unsafe practices?

I've been around long enough to know that most of this discussion is people rationalizing to themselves why these incidents would not happen to them. in any event, if people insist on talking about that we will move the thread to A&S

spare_wheel 10-14-13 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 16160678)
Agree spare_wheel. As a driver of 30+ years, I have never (yes, never!) hit nor almost hit a cyclist (or even caused a cyclist a scare), day or night. NEVER! But obvioulsy we cyclists need not put ourselves into overly dangerous situations i.e., busy/fast streets at night especially w/o sufficient lighting. No-brainer kind of stuff.

i definitely think lights are a prudent thing. i also think that many cyclists would benefit from a cycling class.

Dahon.Steve 10-14-13 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumrunn6 (Post 16159522)
chilling to watch

Agreed.

I thought the cyclist was hit from behind. It looks like the rear wheel of the bike lifted before impact.

the sci guy 10-14-13 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 16160904)
Shadows!

Explain then why we can see his shadow in front of him every time he rides under a street light or a car approaches from behind? My commuter light is much too bright to see my shadow in those cases.


I'm sure the cyclist knows plenty with the camera and all and maybe the crash was unavoidable. I'm just sayin' that light sure wasn't very bright.

because maybe it wasn't pointed at the ground, but more ahead so it wasn't strong enough on the bottom periphery to block out a shadow.
this can be backed up by looking where the light hits the car just a split second before impact. it's pointed straight forward, not down.

Slaninar 10-14-13 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommuteCommando (Post 16160310)
Glad the cyclist is OK. Brakes or no brakes, it wouldn't have helped in that situation.

Since the car started pulling in, before the contact, whole 2 seconds I counted. The car is at fault, especially for running away (bastard), but biker didn't even try to slow down when he saw the problem starting. That was not wise.

I've had cars pull out in front of me, several crashes, so know what I'm talking about. :) One learns from one's mistakes if they live... :)

JohnJ80 10-14-13 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the sci guy (Post 16161227)
because maybe it wasn't pointed at the ground, but more ahead so it wasn't strong enough on the bottom periphery to block out a shadow.
this can be backed up by looking where the light hits the car just a split second before impact. it's pointed straight forward, not down.

It's not much of a light. Even a low lumen count light would show some beam spill on the pavement. Look at 1:00 to 1:10 in the shadows (for example). Maybe the OP could confirm, but I think it's just a weak white blinkie. It doesn't even have any spill onto the car alongside at 1:25 (a shiny thing/reflective). The only way it would have not shown up on that car is if it were a laser beam with no spill. In fact, it barely even shows in the side of the car an instant before he hits it in the rear qtr panel.

Finally, it looks like the cyclist has a black or very dark shirt on. The accident occurs as he comes out of a very dark area (not a light) and the car pulls out in front of him and then the cyclist hits the car in the rear qtr panel. To me, it looks like the cyclist hit the car and not the car hitting the cyclist when I stepped through it frame by frame at the end. Would be interesting to see what the accident investigators come back with in terms of right of way etc...

I'd attribute this to poor visibility and would guess that as far as the collision goes, there would be blame assigned on both sides in some proportion depending on how precisely where the car is vis a vis in the intersection when/if the accident investigators get into it. It's not clear from the video's limited perspective.

Of course, the driver should not have driven off and will get appropriately nailed for that. That's the big hit in this incident.


J.


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