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Thread: Hit & Run

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
    because maybe it wasn't pointed at the ground, but more ahead so it wasn't strong enough on the bottom periphery to block out a shadow.
    this can be backed up by looking where the light hits the car just a split second before impact. it's pointed straight forward, not down.
    It's not much of a light. Even a low lumen count light would show some beam spill on the pavement. Look at 1:00 to 1:10 in the shadows (for example). Maybe the OP could confirm, but I think it's just a weak white blinkie. It doesn't even have any spill onto the car alongside at 1:25 (a shiny thing/reflective). The only way it would have not shown up on that car is if it were a laser beam with no spill. In fact, it barely even shows in the side of the car an instant before he hits it in the rear qtr panel.

    Finally, it looks like the cyclist has a black or very dark shirt on. The accident occurs as he comes out of a very dark area (not a light) and the car pulls out in front of him and then the cyclist hits the car in the rear qtr panel. To me, it looks like the cyclist hit the car and not the car hitting the cyclist when I stepped through it frame by frame at the end. Would be interesting to see what the accident investigators come back with in terms of right of way etc...

    I'd attribute this to poor visibility and would guess that as far as the collision goes, there would be blame assigned on both sides in some proportion depending on how precisely where the car is vis a vis in the intersection when/if the accident investigators get into it. It's not clear from the video's limited perspective.

    Of course, the driver should not have driven off and will get appropriately nailed for that. That's the big hit in this incident.


    J.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Slaninar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    Finally, it looks like the cyclist has a black or very dark shirt on. The accident occurs as he comes out of a very dark area (not a light) and the car pulls out in front of him and then the cyclist hits the car in the rear qtr panel. To me, it looks like the cyclist hit the car and not the car hitting the cyclist when I stepped through it frame by frame at the end. Would be interesting to see what the accident investigators come back with in terms of right of way etc...
    I'd love to hear what traffic lawyers have to say on this?

    You start running and I'll jump right in front of you. You will hit me from the rear, give you no time to react. I always believed that right of way means you must let others pass without forcing them to change their speed or direction. So even if you hit the back of the car that pulled just right in front of you, it is their fault, for forcing you to brake hard in order to avoid collision. Still, would like to know if I'm wrong - any lawyers?





    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    I'd attribute this to poor visibility
    This. Door, or window post is thick enough to block a (motor)cyclist. If you don't swerve, sway, you can't be sure driver sees you, even if he looks your way. Posts don't hide cars, but slim bicycles are easily left unseen.
    Evviva il comunismo e la libertÓ.

  3. #53
    Senior Member DiegoFrogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
    Since the car started pulling in, before the contact, whole 2 seconds I counted. The car is at fault, especially for running away (bastard), but biker didn't even try to slow down when he saw the problem starting. That was not wise.

    I've had cars pull out in front of me, several crashes, so know what I'm talking about. One learns from one's mistakes if they live...
    In a previous lifetime I was a civil engineer who mostly designed bridges and other transportation related infrastructure. Vertical curves on highways are typically designed based on certain parameters regarding headlight beams, speed and reaction time in addition to the normal high school physics you would expect regarding friction and such. All of the tables in the AASHTO "Green Book" include a 2 second reaction time from the instant of hazard detection. Example: Your headlight beam illuminates a deer in the road as you enter a sag curve. Two seconds later, the braking action begins. Pretty reasonable, really, to not expect instantaneous reactions.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Slaninar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiegoFrogs View Post
    In a previous lifetime I was a civil engineer who mostly designed bridges and other transportation related infrastructure. Vertical curves on highways are typically designed based on certain parameters regarding headlight beams, speed and reaction time in addition to the normal high school physics you would expect regarding friction and such. All of the tables in the AASHTO "Green Book" include a 2 second reaction time from the instant of hazard detection. Example: Your headlight beam illuminates a deer in the road as you enter a sag curve. Two seconds later, the braking action begins. Pretty reasonable, really, to not expect instantaneous reactions.
    Some traffic experts say otherwise:

    "An alert and fit rider needs 0.75 of a second thinking time. That means that at 50 mph you'll travel 15 metres (about 50 feet) before you begin to brake."

    I had a one second thinking time in mind. That leaves about one whole second of braking time. At 30 km/h bicycle speed that should be enough to slow down, almost stop. I didn't see any slowing down when the car was seen waiting to pull in (5 or more seconds time), nor any atempts of braking when the car actually started pulling in.

    Just to stress again - I don't think it's the cyclist fault. But it was a mistake. His mistake was taking the right of way for granted - on a bicycle you must ride as if you're invisible. Unfortunately. Take the lane, make sure you're seen, have your fingers on the brakes (which he definitely did not, biggest mistake).
    Last edited by Slaninar; 10-15-13 at 01:53 AM.
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  5. #55
    Just a commuter stockholm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
    You can have all the airzounds, 4000 lumens, and helmets you want - but when it's not your day, it may not help a lick. We blame the cyclist because, deep down, we like to think it won't happen to us. Airzound isn't helping there - the auto is to blame. I hope he's ok.
    This.

  6. #56
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
    Some traffic experts say otherwise:

    "An alert and fit rider needs 0.75 of a second thinking time. That means that at 50 mph you'll travel 15 metres (about 50 feet) before you begin to brake."

    I had a one second thinking time in mind. That leaves about one whole second of braking time. At 30 km/h bicycle speed that should be enough to slow down, almost stop. I didn't see any slowing down when the car was seen waiting to pull in (5 or more seconds time), nor any atempts of braking when the car actually started pulling in.

    Just to stress again - I don't think it's the cyclist fault. But it was a mistake. His mistake was taking the right of way for granted - on a bicycle you must ride as if you're invisible. Unfortunately. Take the lane, make sure you're seen, have your fingers on the brakes (which he definitely did not, biggest mistake).
    Classic case of treating a commute as a training ride.

    Probably doing a Strava at the same time
    Last edited by acidfast7; 10-15-13 at 03:24 AM.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Slaninar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    Classic case of treating a commute as a training ride.
    HEY, I do that all the time!

    Riding in bicycle lane (separated) takes me about an hour to get to work. There are lots of pedestrians not watching, women pushing children in those kids trolleys (they love taking whole bike lanes!), cars pulling in and out, with commercial billboards placed so they block view to coming cyclists etc. So the sane speed on bicycle lane is about 10 - max 15 km /h.


    When I ride in the road, I keep steady 30+km/h, while being safe and not much slower than traffic in my lane (I use the slower, right lane, on double lane each way roads). So i come 30 minutes faster - 25 to 35 minutes, depending on traffic lights. Pisses some drivers off, but is faster and quite safe (never had a single accident so far).

    Evviva il comunismo e la libertÓ.

  8. #58
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
    HEY, I do that all the time!

    Riding in bicycle lane (separated) takes me about an hour to get to work. There are lots of pedestrians not watching, women pushing children in those kids trolleys (they love taking whole bike lanes!), cars pulling in and out, with commercial billboards placed so they block view to coming cyclists etc. So the sane speed on bicycle lane is about 10 - max 15 km /h.


    When I ride in the road, I keep steady 30+km/h, while being safe and not much slower than traffic in my lane (I use the slower, right lane, on double lane each way roads). So i come 30 minutes faster - 25 to 35 minutes, depending on traffic lights. Pisses some drivers off, but is faster and quite safe (never had a single accident so far).

    I think it's OK to do that if one stays aware ... the rider in the video did not ... he had 5 secs or so to move hand near the brakes ...

    it's quite similar to the guy that had a crash on here and didn't slow when there was a gap in traffic

    i'm OK with riding in traffic ... Frankfurt was quite good for that ... but the rider must stay aware.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Ridefreemc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne View Post
    Do you know where his front light is/was mounted? Just asking because towards the end of the video I see the flashing, but it's also lighting up his forearms and the rear of his cable coming off the bars, so the light wasn't mounted on the handlebar? There's also a shadow cast on his right forearm, possibly from the handlebar... was the light pointing upwards? Makes me wonder whether the light was mounted such that it made it much less effective from the front.
    I have two lights to hopefully give some depth perception. One on my helmet (steady) and one on the bicycle handlebars (flashing). Same in the rear (1 steady and one flashing).

    On my motorcycle, with one headlight even if you are seen the side street driver may not be able to tell where you are (i.e., how far back you are). When I switched to three lights up front (main headlight and two lower driving lights) I noticed a significant difference in how I was "treated" on the road. With the first single headlight scenario I had 3 incidents (cars pulling out from side street or traffic signal once) in the first 1,000 miles of the new bike. After the three lights I had zero in the next 30,000 miles. Zero.
    Last edited by Ridefreemc; 10-15-13 at 06:52 AM.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
    Since the car started pulling in, before the contact, whole 2 seconds I counted. The car is at fault, especially for running away (bastard), but biker didn't even try to slow down when he saw the problem starting. That was not wise.

    I've had cars pull out in front of me, several crashes, so know what I'm talking about. One learns from one's mistakes if they live...
    Yea. Even when the motorist is at fault, that doesn't relieve us of the obligation to drive defensively. Was his light bright enough? I don't know. I used to run a little (2xAAA) Cateye. A couple of close calls later I invested in a NiteRider. Our fault or not, learing from it is always desireable. I don't often ride at night, though this time of year I ride into work in morning dark. I try to be hyper vigilant. I never tear through parking lots at full speed, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiegoFrogs View Post
    In a previous lifetime I was a civil engineer who mostly designed bridges and other transportation related infrastructure. Vertical curves on highways are typically designed based on certain parameters regarding headlight beams, speed and reaction time in addition to the normal high school physics you would expect regarding friction and such. . .
    I've worked in project planning too, (archetectural engineerng) and there is a definite evolution in roadway design over the years. In spite of the "sharrows" this roadway is aparently an older design. (In fact, sharrows are a concesion to the inpracticality of widening some older roadways to accomodate bikes) The sightlines appeared to comply with modern codes, but the total lack of shoulder would not meet specs for newer developments here in California for a primary or secondary thoroughfare like that.
    Last edited by CommuteCommando; 10-15-13 at 07:25 AM.
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  11. #61
    Senior Member AusTexMurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
    HEY, I do that all the time!

    Riding in bicycle lane (separated) takes me about an hour to get to work. There are lots of pedestrians not watching, women pushing children in those kids trolleys (they love taking whole bike lanes!), cars pulling in and out, with commercial billboards placed so they block view to coming cyclists etc. So the sane speed on bicycle lane is about 10 - max 15 km /h.


    When I ride in the road, I keep steady 30+km/h, while being safe and not much slower than traffic in my lane (I use the slower, right lane, on double lane each way roads). So i come 30 minutes faster - 25 to 35 minutes, depending on traffic lights. Pisses some drivers off, but is faster and quite safe (never had a single accident so far).

    This......+1.
    Abandon the bike lane for the auto lane due to slow cyclists, pedestrians, city busses, etc.
    I love having the facilities for newer cyclists, but oftentimes forgo them, myself.
    Depends on conditions and location.
    And whether I am by myself, pulling kids behind, or riding with family or other less confident cyclists.

  12. #62
    Senior Member longbeachgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbeachgary View Post
    Why are so many of you such dicks? You expect this cyclist to blow his air horn while applying the brakes AND jump on the sidewalk to avoid the collission. Sure when you slow things down on youtube it's much easier to avoid this stuff. Try getting out and actually riding.
    ^^
    I have to go back to this. None of you were there yet you have this whole CSI thing going on. It really bugs me when people don't know what they're talking about but keep talking anyway. First and foremost - it's never a good sign for the driver when they drive away - it's a Felony if someone is injured. Why don't you all push away from your armchairs and go for a ride?

  13. #63
    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
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    I see a few things I do differently. No camera, no electronics in front of me. Hands on the brakes. Handlebar and helmet lights that will "freeze" any driver. Solid (not flashing) lights. Anticipation of drivers pulling out in front of me. Not blaming the bicyclist, and glad not seriously injured, but there are safer ways to ride at night.

  14. #64
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    I see a few things I do differently. No camera, no electronics in front of me. Hands on the brakes. Handlebar and helmet lights that will "freeze" any driver. Solid (not flashing) lights. Anticipation of drivers pulling out in front of me. Not blaming the bicyclist, and glad not seriously injured, but there are safer ways to ride at night.
    I think the electronics are a super distraction, which usually causes these types of incidents.
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  15. #65
    Senior Member treal512's Avatar
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    I was watching videos and reading up on the Airzound when I came across this: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...e-usa?ref=live

    A little expensive, but kind of neat.

  16. #66
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    Yes the car pulled out in front of him. On my commute, I try to be REALLY visible. 300 lumens on the helmet, 300 lumens on the bars plus 300 lumens flashing on the bars. He did not have enough light, evidenced by the video of him riding in the dark areas. The light should be showing up on the ground. I'm not blaming the rider, however the rider could be preparing better. When I'm driving in my car, I notice the brightly lit bikers. One brake? A hand on each brake would have worked better. Many times my helmet light has prevented drivers from pulling out in front of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by longbeachgary View Post
    ^^
    I have to go back to this. None of you were there yet you have this whole CSI thing going on. It really bugs me when people don't know what they're talking about but keep talking anyway. First and foremost - it's never a good sign for the driver when they drive away - it's a Felony if someone is injured. Why don't you all push away from your armchairs and go for a ride?
    Of course it's seriously bad when someone drives away from an accident with or without injuries. No one is contesting that.

    As for the other two items, right back at you.

    J.

  18. #68
    Senior Member longbeachgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    It's not much of a light. Even a low lumen count light would show some beam spill on the pavement. Look at 1:00 to 1:10 in the shadows (for example). Maybe the OP could confirm, but I think it's just a weak white blinkie. It doesn't even have any spill onto the car alongside at 1:25 (a shiny thing/reflective). The only way it would have not shown up on that car is if it were a laser beam with no spill. In fact, it barely even shows in the side of the car an instant before he hits it in the rear qtr panel.

    Finally, it looks like the cyclist has a black or very dark shirt on. The accident occurs as he comes out of a very dark area (not a light) and the car pulls out in front of him and then the cyclist hits the car in the rear qtr panel. To me, it looks like the cyclist hit the car and not the car hitting the cyclist when I stepped through it frame by frame at the end. Would be interesting to see what the accident investigators come back with in terms of right of way etc...

    I'd attribute this to poor visibility and would guess that as far as the collision goes, there would be blame assigned on both sides in some proportion depending on how precisely where the car is vis a vis in the intersection when/if the accident investigators get into it. It's not clear from the video's limited perspective.

    Of course, the driver should not have driven off and will get appropriately nailed for that. That's the big hit in this incident.


    J.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    Of course it's seriously bad when someone drives away from an accident with or without injuries. No one is contesting that.

    J.
    Keep talking, you're proving my point.

  19. #69
    one life on two wheels cobrabyte's Avatar
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    some of you safety guys with your 100,000 lumens lights, truck horns, etc...

    just...lol

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    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobrabyte View Post
    some of you safety guys with your 100,000 lumens lights, truck horns, etc...

    just...lol
    Are you the guy in the video?

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    one life on two wheels cobrabyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    Are you the guy in the video?
    what implies that?

    are you the driver of the car in the video?

  22. #72
    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobrabyte View Post
    what implies that?

    are you the driver of the car in the video?
    You are laughing at the "safety guys." Doubt any of the "safety guys" would be lying on the ground.

  23. #73
    one life on two wheels cobrabyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    You are laughing at the "safety guys." Doubt any of the "safety guys" would be lying on the ground.
    if that's your opinion, cool. Still doesn't explain why you asked if I was the guy in the video though...

  24. #74
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobrabyte View Post
    if that's your opinion, cool. Still doesn't explain why you asked if I was the guy in the video though...
    not sure about alan s

    but you don't seem like a guy who be distracted by a gadget recording a strava segment
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  25. #75
    one life on two wheels cobrabyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    not sure about alan s

    but you don't seem like a guy who be distracted by a gadget recording a strava segment
    You are correct. I use Map My Ride. I'm not a fan of Strava. Anyways I keep my phone in my jersey pocket while riding, just checking it periodically when the appropriate moment presents itself.

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