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-   -   Black Ice (http://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/922546-black-ice.html)

JReade 11-19-13 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogan (Post 16253792)
Black ice here in Florida is when a rain occurs on hot asphalt. The rain brings the oils from the asphalt and droppings from leaky vehicles to the surface of the pavement. This creates what we call black ice as the surface of the asphalt is as slick as ice until enough rain falls to wash clean the pavement.


Well, I've never heard that before.

ItsJustMe 11-19-13 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juha (Post 16258498)
But the blanket statement that cars are curling rocks everywhere simply isn't true. Where I ride, for example, winter tyres for cars are mandatory, and a lot of car drivers use specifically studded winter tyres, for the exact same reasons.

--J

Studded tires on cars are illegal in the US. Apparently reducing wear on the road surface is more important than reducing accidents. They're probably illegal on bikes too but I don't really care.

cyccommute 11-19-13 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe (Post 16260376)
Studded tires on cars are illegal in the US. Apparently reducing wear on the road surface is more important than reducing accidents. They're probably illegal on bikes too but I don't really care.

With the exception of Wisconsin and Puerto Rico and with some seasonal restrictions, they are allowed in the other 49 states, according to AAA

FBinNY 11-19-13 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16260438)
With the exception of Wisconsin and Puerto Rico and with some seasonal restrictions, they are allowed in the other 49 states, according to AAA

+1, in most states, studded tires are legal during the winter months, though in some, are illegal otherwise, ie. April - Oct, or something.

ItsJustMe 11-19-13 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16260438)
With the exception of Wisconsin and Puerto Rico and with some seasonal restrictions, they are allowed in the other 49 states, according to AAA

Many only with rubber studs. What the heck is a rubber stud? Google isn't helping me.

dscheidt 11-19-13 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe (Post 16261211)
Many only with rubber studs. What the heck is a rubber stud? Google isn't helping me.

It's a stud. Made of rubber. Really. They work nearly as well as carbide studs, and dont' damage the pavement. Also, modern studless snows work better than studs almost all the time. The remaining exception is icy surfaces (not snowy) when the temperature is right around freezing. Colder than about 20 F, studs don't bite ice any better than rubber, and really cold, rubber wins. That's cars and light trucks, bikes are different, because the pressures are so different.

bigbenaugust 11-20-13 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16260438)
With the exception of Wisconsin and Puerto Rico and with some seasonal restrictions, they are allowed in the other 49 states, according to AAA

:lol: snow tires in Puerto Rico. I wonder why they are illegal there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16259851)
The freezing rain...and that what this was...sucked what little heat in the pavement out and froze to the ground quickly. It would have also dropped the air temp rapidly because water has a higher heat capacity than air does. You'd have to provide a mechanism by which water near the freezing point could fall though a column of air, hit the ground and freeze without decreasing the temperature of the air column. That violates a couple of important thermodynamic laws which have never been violated before. Ever.

In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

JohnJ80 11-20-13 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dscheidt (Post 16261325)
It's a stud. Made of rubber. Really. They work nearly as well as carbide studs, and dont' damage the pavement. Also, modern studless snows work better than studs almost all the time. The remaining exception is icy surfaces (not snowy) when the temperature is right around freezing. Colder than about 20 F, studs don't bite ice any better than rubber, and really cold, rubber wins. That's cars and light trucks, bikes are different, because the pressures are so different.

Having ridden studs on ice (and driven them in a car) on ice, I don't agree. The argument is that the studs are not as effective on dry pavement and that's an issue because you don't have ice 100% covering the surface.

Around here (Minnesota) it gets plenty cold and where I live, it's not unusual to have ice covered roads for weeks at a time. Studs (carbide) work great. Rubber does not.

J.

cyccommute 11-20-13 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe (Post 16261211)
Many only with rubber studs. What the heck is a rubber stud? Google isn't helping me.

That's new one on me too. I hate studded car tires (almost as much as I hate studded bicycle tires:rolleyes:), especially the ones that are being run in July in Colorado. We allow them all year long which tears the crap out of our roads.

Bizman 11-20-13 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16262096)
That's new one on me too. I hate studded car tires (almost as much as I hate studded bicycle tires:rolleyes:), especially the ones that are being run in July in Colorado. We allow them all year long which tears the crap out of our roads.

Here in PA from what I remember studded tires are only allowed Nov-April. However, my biggest complaint is not the studs, its how much UNNEEDED LIGUID SALT is put on the roads! Not only does it ruin our roads (probably more than studs) but what it does to our vehicles, and the environment. I just put studded tires on my bike yesterday as I commute in the evenig and back into the wee hours of the morning. The rolling resistance is more but I will take it!

dscheidt 11-20-13 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJ80 (Post 16262028)
Having ridden studs on ice (and driven them in a car) on ice, I don't agree.

J.

You can disagree all you want. The actual performance data, though, is clear. Top quality studless tires are better, except on ice, in a very narrow range of temperatures, centered on freezing. Twenty years ago, that wasn't true, but technology has improved.

The things that racers use on frozen lakes are different, with much longer spikes. They work, but destroy pavement.

linus 11-20-13 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 16253844)
Black Ice is a real problem for cars (out of control when you're in front of them on your bike) and I've had a few close calls on my bike too!
Anyone else have issues with black ice?

No reading comprehension fail here, the OP did ask if anyone else had "issues" with black ice, leaving the subject wide open.

Q. Anyone else have issues with black ice?
A. Studded tires.

http://epicfail.xepher.net/wp-conten.../epicfail1.jpg

JohnJ80 11-20-13 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dscheidt (Post 16263980)
You can disagree all you want. The actual performance data, though, is clear. Top quality studless tires are better, except on ice, in a very narrow range of temperatures, centered on freezing. Twenty years ago, that wasn't true, but technology has improved.

The things that racers use on frozen lakes are different, with much longer spikes. They work, but destroy pavement.

Being an engineer, I get data. Being an engineer, I also get how data doesn't always match reality. I've ridden studded tires on ice from above freezing to near zero fahrenheit and there is little difference in how they grab (always good). I also live in a climate where we get major ice from November until April and where we get *real* black ice on the roads from car exhaust because it's too cold for salt or calcium chloride to work. If studded tires were allowed here, we'd all be using them on our cars as well as snowmobiles (for those of us that have then, I don't).

There is a difference if you have perfectly flat ice - think ice skating rink - but that isn't what icy roads or trails are like.

J.

rumrunn6 11-22-13 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16253582)
I think all of you are missing a central point to BicycleCrazy's post. Studs on your bike can make riding a bicycle in ice conditions ("black ice" is an over used term) possible. But studs do nothing for the cars that are around you. They don't even make it easier to get out of the way.

When it 'frizzles' (freezing drizzle) around here, it's time to take drive or take the bus. Being the 8 ball in a game of automobile billiards isn't good for preserving your 3rd dimension. Snow? I'll ride. Frizzle? Nope.

right

CrankyOne 11-22-13 04:18 PM

This is why, during the winter, I only ride on paths that are physically segregated with something likely to stop a car that's sliding my way (curb, parked cars, ditch, etc). I just do not trust people driving 4000 pound cars to pay attention, let alone drive safely in the winter. I won't put my life in their hands.

And I put Marathon studded tyres on my bike to help protect me from me.


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