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  1. #26
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    You mean level top tube?
    yes. same difference. straight across vs sloping down.
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  2. #27
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by linus View Post
    Not when you have a stack of spacers and angled up stem.
    it's a matter of personal taste, obviously, but i like the way my bike looks.


    and remember it's not a racing bike so the whole spacers/flip/angled down/slammed stem thing doesn't really apply.
    Twitter@theSurlyBiker

  3. #28
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    Level vs sloping top tube is largely a personal taste thing, I think. The touch points (saddle, bars, pedals) can be located the same, with either design.

    Personally I don't like the "sit up and beg" look of a bike with a very sloped top tube, and find the horizontal top tube more "purposeful" and "aggressive", but that is all totally subjective blather.
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  4. #29
    Disco Infiltrator Darth Lefty's Avatar
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    The Surlies have a level top tube but it's pretty low for the length compared to a classic old frame. Example, my Paramount is 23" (58.4 cm) and has a 22-3/16 top tube (56.3). But to get about the same length Cross Check I'd have to pick a 54 which means there's +4cm of head spacers and seat tube. You can see this in the Surly head tubes which are always very short, and the top and down tubes come to a very tight point.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    I'm not sure what you're driving at by asking if Surlys are just "really, really solid," but they certainly don't appeal to the racer, weekend warrior, A group, crowds, so no chops there. I guess you could say they're solidly unambitious, which is not a slam, but is at the opposite end of trendy; their market is those who fancy themselves un-trendy, non-gimmicky, sensible types, and I think Surly has hit that segment damn squarely. No, it's no slam, but that they call what is essentially a disc equipped Cross Check the Straggler, says it all!

    Regarding the computer analogy, Apple’s share of the PC market may only be 10% or less, but the Mac owns 90% of the $1000+ segment in the US and enjoys a 25% to 35% profit margin, while the largest PC manufacturer, HP, reports a meagre 3% profit for it's PC group. I guess you troll where you want, but Apple has proven to be awfully well positioned.

    Not that I think Apple and Surly are aptly compared; Apple delivers a firmly progressive, high-end product, while Surly steers towards low-tech/mid-range, and even retro-tech/un-revolutionary, which appeals to a completely different market view.

    Anyway, yes the point is moot, because there are lots of options to suit just about every criteria from a multitude of bike brands.
    Well said, thanks.

    It's a big investment for me, especially if I go with the Surly since it's more expensive. That is looking like the best choice here, simply because of the versatility. I'm going to test ride them again when I get back from vacation and probably make a decision then.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    Level vs sloping top tube is largely a personal taste thing, I think. The touch points (saddle, bars, pedals) can be located the same, with either design.

    Personally I don't like the "sit up and beg" look of a bike with a very sloped top tube, and find the horizontal top tube more "purposeful" and "aggressive", but that is all totally subjective blather.
    I kinda like the straight top tube, mainly because one of the biggest things that irks me about my Specialized Sirrus Sport is that I only have one place the attach my bike lock and that place shifts the weight. I'd much rather stick it on the seat tube, but there isn't enough room there. It'd fit fine on the Surly though.

  7. #32
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    I think for a $1000 budget, you should add the word "used" here and there.

    I wouldn't worry too much about the bar-end shifters -- the less convenient your shifting, the better you get at anticipating when to shift, and making the most of the gear you find yourself in. All of my road bikes have downtube shifters, so if I get a chance to shift down to my ~72" gear before stopping, great. Otherwise, I'll just ride out of the saddle for a bit until I'm up to speed again.
    Quote Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
    There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
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  8. #33
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clrux View Post
    Well said, thanks.

    It's a big investment for me, especially if I go with the Surly since it's more expensive. That is looking like the best choice here, simply because of the versatility. I'm going to test ride them again when I get back from vacation and probably make a decision then.
    my cross check is the 2nd most expensive thing I've bought in my life behind my car. even my iMac was slightly cheaper (mostly because of the education discount )
    but it's a good investment.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by clrux View Post
    I do like the Surly, but I'm concerned about the bar-ends in stop-and-go traffic, which is a daily thing here in Boston. I feel like I'd have a little less confidence if I had to brake and downshift suddenly. Do any of you guys ride in traffic and have bar-ends? Do you just get used to it?
    I ride in Boston every weekend and I do not like the idea of a situation where brake and shifting is not right at my finger tips. I ride mostly around N. Station, Downtown, just commuting around, South Boston etc. I don't see anyone riding with a bike that doesn't have brakes right at their fingertips, whether it's drop down or mtb.

    Have you not considered All City? All City bikes are sold all over Boston/Greater Boston and beyond. They are cheaper than Surly from what I can tell. I've seen a few them around, but haven't seen a Surly yet. It's not Cyclo-Cross, but All City Space Horse looks sweet. Their Nature Boy look nice too. Too bad All City name itself sucks and so do the names for their bikes. Worst names for bikes, no contest.
    Last edited by zymphad; 12-22-13 at 05:51 PM.

  10. #35
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    My top choice was an All-City Space Horse (even over the Cross Check).
    But All-City bikes are $$$. The Space Horse/Mr. Pink are both hovering around $1500+ as far as I know. Your LBS may vary.
    Twitter@theSurlyBiker

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    You mean level top tube?
    Quote Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
    yes. same difference. straight across vs sloping down.
    I think the distinction is useful to make, because some top tubes, whether level or sloping, are not straight:



    Chaad--'95 DeKerf Team SL, '02 Lemond Buenos Aires, '05 Novara Buzz, '73 Schwinn Collegiate, '06 Mountain Cycle Rumble, '09 Dahon Mariner D7, '12 Mercier Nano, '12 Breezer Venturi

  12. #37
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    To suggest another option I think the Motobecane Gran Turismo is a great bike for only $700! see this for details: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...an_turismo.htm

    Another great option from Kona is the Sutra model instead of the Jake, this one comes with complete set of front and rear racks plus fenders thus it's ready to add on pannier bags and get on and go. I'm sure you could get it on sale somewhere for less than the $1500 new retail price.

    But for a low cost and highly rated touring bike the Motobecane is going to be hard to beat for the anything under $1500. For $700 you could afford to put on front rack, nice fenders, and accessorize it anyway you want.

  13. #38
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    I think the distinction is useful to make, because some top tubes, whether level or sloping, are not straight:

    I would so commute on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
    There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
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  14. #39
    Senior Member Germany_chris's Avatar
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    If you're going to buy off the rack the Vaya is the only one I'd buy
    I'm an angry angst ridden anarcho-punk socialist you should just generally disregard my posts--Germany_chris

  15. #40
    babylon by bike Standalone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clrux View Post
    But what about someone who's going from STI brifters to bar-ends? I feel like that's going the other direction... It just makes me nervous. I will say though, that the bar-ends shifted more smoothly than the STI of the Nova. I'm not sure if that's because of better components on the Surly, or if that's just the nature of bar-ends.



    I test rode the Nova and the Cross-Check and liked the rides fairly equally. The steel of the Surly was just a hair smoother. It's really a very tough choice! I think though, that I want to go with whichever bike will last me the longest, and whichever bike I won't want to feel like upgrading, or replacing next year.

    Do you guys know if the Nova can be outfitted with a rack?
    Hills are excellent motivators as far as teaching you to work whatever shifters are there.

    Most here are focusing on commuter advice. Commuting isn't picky. Any bike that fits, is set up for the weather (fenders/ snow tires, etc), and mostly works is a decent commuter.

    A good tourer, though, relies on geometry in a big way. So my advice is to get the bike with the longest chainstays you can. Front end geometry is trickier, and varies under load, but a bike with long chainstays is likely to have a geometry up front that is amenable to loading up.

    For $1k, I'd look at an old tourer for $400, and spend the rest on panniers, an awesome tent, and other tour gear/travel expenses. And some beer.

    A great tourer will be 95% as good as any commuter you've chosen, but any great commuter will *not* so necessarily be a decent tourer. Ask this same question in the Touring Subforum....
    The bicycle, the bicycle surely, should always be the vehicle of novelists and poets. Christopher Morley

  16. #41
    Senior Member arsprod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    Level vs sloping top tube is largely a personal taste thing, I think. The touch points (saddle, bars, pedals) can be located the same, with either design.

    Personally I don't like the "sit up and beg" look of a bike with a very sloped top tube, and find the horizontal top tube more "purposeful" and "aggressive", but that is all totally subjective blather.
    Well, not always a personal preference thing. For us height challenged individuals (I'm 5'3") sloping top tubes open up a lot more options for frames. My road bike is straight which is great for aero positioning, but my commuter is sloped which allows me a more upright seating position. My jewels thank whoever came up with sloping top tubes
    I'm slow, go around

  17. #42
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    I've had nothing but straight tube frames for years until this last summer when I got my first sloped frame, and for what it's worth I can't tell the difference, if anything it's slightly easier to mount and dismount and that's about it, my jewels don't care either.

  18. #43
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arsprod View Post
    Well, not always a personal preference thing. For us height challenged individuals (I'm 5'3") sloping top tubes open up a lot more options for frames. My road bike is straight which is great for aero positioning, but my commuter is sloped which allows me a more upright seating position. My jewels thank whoever came up with sloping top tubes
    i can definitely understand this. I'm 5'5", and my wife is 5'3". My Surly I just got is a 52cm frame and the top tube is the max for me in terms of stand over height. It definitely starts pushing up the crotch of my pants and I can feel it a little in my anular crack area. Most fit people would probably say I should have gotten a 50cm frame, but I like a slightly larger frame so it works for me.
    Twitter@theSurlyBiker

  19. #44
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    personally i think the straight top tube looks better aesthetically.
    It is part of competition cyclocross bikes.. as you need the space inside to shoulder the bike, and run.


    anyhow the rim brake Trek Cross Rip comes in right at $1K, the disc brake ones are over that $ figure.

  20. #45
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    My wife just got the 2013 model of the Specialized Tricross (slightly cheaper and better paintjob).
    It's a pretty good bike. Nice looking too. Has rackmounts, brifters, but also interrupt brake levers (which are obscured in the pic on specialized website)
    it has low end components, but i love the thumb knob on the brifters for shifting up, instead of the lever under the brake lever.
    Twitter@theSurlyBiker

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by edsall78 View Post
    Up the budget slightly and have your shop put a set of brifters on the surly cc.or get a straggler.
    +1

    Crosscheck seems like your best option in your budget. If I got a crosscheck I would just upgrade the shifters. You can do it now or in the future but will probably get a deal to do it now.

    I would consider the Straggler if you can afford it and want disc brakes. Seems like some love them and some don't, but I personally would go for it.

    Salsa Vaya would be a great option if you can find a deal (I looked at them recently and found some good discounts on 2013's). I think the 2013 Vaya 3 still has bar end shifters (the Vaya 2 would be way out of your price target) so if you wanted to go for brifters it would increase the cost.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
    My wife just got the 2013 model of the Specialized Tricross (slightly cheaper and better paintjob).
    It's a pretty good bike. Nice looking too. Has rackmounts, brifters, but also interrupt brake levers (which are obscured in the pic on specialized website)
    it has low end components, but i love the thumb knob on the brifters for shifting up, instead of the lever under the brake lever.
    Tricross is a great bike. I was really close to getting one, but I decided I wanted steel, and then 2013 steel model didn't have the components I wanted. Thought about upgrading them but ultimately decided I also wanted longer chainstays, etc for doing some touring. I think the interrupters are really nice while riding in lots of traffic (or busy MUPs), particularly if your not used to drop bars.

  23. #48
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    We sell Treks:

    CrossRip, $990: compared to the Jamis, you lose the disc brakes, but pick up triple shifting in the front. The Jamis with disc brakes seems to be a better deal.

    CrossRip Comp, $1100: disc brakes, still Claris shifting, pick up carbon fork and triple from compared to the Jamis. Compared to the Kona, CrossRip Comp has triple front and carbon fork, but the Kona has better, 10sp Tiagra drivetrain. Both the Kona and the Jamis seem like a better deal. Dang.

  24. #49
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    Another vote for the Crosscheck, with one caveat - make sure it fits well.
    for some, they have a slightly long top tube and a short head tube.
    ps, I've commuted and done a couple of light tours with mine
    it is a nice balance of features, tire flexibility is a nice plus - had everything from 25 to 47 tires on mine.
    Last edited by martianone; 12-23-13 at 04:56 PM. Reason: Ps
    ride long & prosper

  25. #50
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    that's what is in the picture in 27th post.

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