cyccommute 

Another advantage is the one I pointed out to halcyon100 above. If you must ride bike paths, the helmet light can be directed away from on-coming pedestrian or bicycle traffic so that you don't cause them problems. Can't do that with a handlebar mounted light...not even a generator one.

spare_wheel

ummm...i can assure you that battery-powered led lighting is also alive and well in europe, asia, south america, and australia/nz. someone else will have to chime in on africa.

lately i've been running one or two cygolite metro 420s on high. i think i'm slowly gravitating to one light since running two of these seems like overkill.

acidfast7

1. You said you don't ride at night (see bike path comment).

2. They already have on most of planet (the US is by far the minority).

3. 80 USD is a the price for a product with a support and a warranty (2 years minimum) from a major company.

spare_wheel

Cite please.

acidfast7

EU bikes: 19M sold in 2012

https://issuu.com/coliped/docs/europe...475043/5326982

that's my number ... now do your half and prove me wrong.

also of interest:

FYI ... auto sales for 2012 in the EU: 13.8M

source: https://www.acea.be/images/uploads/fi...ged_Europe.xls

bike sales > auto sales in 2012

not so bad EU ... keep it up

spare_wheel

your cite tells me diddly about the percentage of dynamo light sales versus led light sales.

also bikes have outsold cars/trucks in the USA for over a decade:

https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...-car-sales.png
https://bikeportland.org/2013/11/05/w...t-matter-96595

acidfast7

Interesting. Thank you for the data.

cyccommute 

Edit: Your confusion is my fault because of a typo, although it stands to reason that I'm rather knowledgable about night riding so I must have some experience.

I don't ride bike paths at night. That's different from not riding bikes at night. My first night ride was sometime around 1965 with a generator, by the way. My first winter time night ride was much later, around 1978, again with a generator. Actually the same one. That was about my last time with a generator light. But I've been bicycle commuting year around since 1978.

I doubt it. Show us some data to back up the claim. Not raw bike sales, either. That only tells us that bikes have been sold. Not every bike sold has a light nor does it have a generator. Bulk sales of bicycles includes utility bikes as well as recreational bikes. Recreational bike sales are probably higher even in Europe than utility bike sales.

Let's look at some history, why don't we? Generator lights have been around for a very long time as evidenced by my experience. They have also been rubbish for most of that time. The 1965 bottle generator that I owned ran on the sidewall of the tire and had a striking effect on the speed of the bike. Even more striking was the lack of light it put out. You can get a bit more light from the generator as you picked up speed on a downhill...until the lamp blew out. Then you were riding in the dark. If you started climbing a hill, you didn't have light either. If you stopped, you went black. Going black at a stop continued up until the mid90s when someone wired in a capacitor (a small battery really) and allowed the light to work when you stopped for a short period of time. The light was still rubbish since it was based on flashlight bulbs that had next to no output. To give credit were credit is due, the generator part had been improved enough so that it didn't stop your wheel dead when you used it.

Frankly, all of these problems are what drove me to battery systems and I haven't looked back.

The light problem continued until 5 to 6 years ago with the advent of LED lighting. You can now get pretty good light from a generator because the emitter is more efficient. But those same gains have been made in battery driven lights as well. But battery lights have gotten lighter and more efficient as well. And the cost has gone down while the output has gone up. Back in the days of HID lighting, you had to pay around $600/unit to get the same illumination that you can get now at around $20.

And let's not forget that the market that drives high output bicycle lighting isn't commuters but it's the mountain bike crowd. They aren't interested in generator lighting at all. It is useless for their application so there is little market for it.

$20 per unit buys me a light that I will probably replace in 2 years because the technology is changing so rapidly. Paying $60 for a warranty and support that will never be used seems foolish. I've never had to use any warranty or support for any light I've ever purchased. I doubt that most people need a warranty because the lights just don't fail that often.

I bought my first LED light (it was rubbish too) around 2005. They were quickly replaced by a brighter unit in 2008, which were replaced by another light in 2009, which were replaced by a higher output light in 2012 and I don't doubt that the lights I'm running now will be replaced next year because the output and size are changing again.

Having more than one light...having a back up light is a good idea no matter what kind of light you use...drives the price up even further.

enigmaT120

My commute goes through the woods for several miles on a gravel road. Even the paved parts are dark. I love my dynamo LED light on my Fargo, and the associated tail light, but I also like to be able to scan the sides of the roads for the lurking wildlife. I like to see where I'm not headed yet, too, as when I go down my steep driveway and need to be able to see to make the curve to the left onto my bridge and over my creek. All I use on my helmet is a little Blackburn Flea, USB-rechargable, but it really helps. The stupid helmet does more for (or against) my neck muscles than that little light. I don't aim it at other people.

I don't encounter other bicyclists at night, so I'm always kind of bewildered by your focus on bicyclist's lights blinding on-coming traffic. Maybe in Europe they enforce automobile headlight rules, but not around here. The cars headlights nearly all blind me, and I can't see where my lights are a problem, in comparison. That guy's web site you shared with us mentions something like what I deal with:

"Outside cities, where you will encounter unlit paths, roads on which cyclists may ride which lay parallel to a road for cars and the worst problem is cycle paths lying below the road for cars: You need a lot of light and none of the commercially available dynamo lamps are good enough in all those situations. The last is most problematic: You need a lamp like the Philips LBL to see the road on low lying cycle paths (because you get the low beam of cars shining in your face). Serious cyclists who ride outside the city may want to ride fast (say 30 km/h, and much more with a tailwind), so the headlamp for outside-city use should have a good reach, ca. 50 m or more.
The only dynamo setup that is good enough for all these situations is my modified LBL + special dynamo driver, which is the first headlamp with which I could even properly see the road and what's beside it on the low lying road 3 where you get the low beam of cars shining downwards on you/in your eyes in which case an Edelux is in no way enough..."

At least I'm not trying to ride down in the ditch beside the road, I'm on the same level as the on-coming cars.

cyccommute 

I am also bewildered by this focus on bicycle lights "blinding" on-coming traffic. It just doesn't fit my observations in 35 years of riding at night. If the light from a bike is a flood light, the intensity is low and if the light is a spot light, the directionality is wrong to "blind" on-coming car traffic.

As for the headlight rules, they are just different. Here in the US, SAE wants some upward spillage to illuminate information signs while Europeans want a sharp cutoff. Another interesting tidbit about the StVZO standards is that they are different for cars and bicycles. Cars have to met a standard or no more than 1 lux above the cutoff at 25m while bikes can have 2 lux above the cutoff but at 10m. When you do the math, the cars are allowed to have 6.25 lux at 10m. They can legally blind cyclists but not the other way around. (Source here. Look for "Being Blinded by Cars" about 3/4 down the page)

zacster

The one place I ride that is possibly an issue with blinding oncoming riders is the Manhattan Bridge, and I think it is the same for all 2-way paths on bridges. But for on-coming cars, I don't think it is an issue. I've never noticed a bike light while driving at night that I thought was excessive.

alan s 

My standard is to be able to see far enough ahead to avoid hazards on mostly unlit MUPs. My current light setup with both lights on high gives me about 15 seconds of visibility at 18 mph, which is my normal cruising speed on the flats, and way more time than I need to ride safely. This distance approaches 10 seconds at higher speeds of around 25 mph on downhills, and at which speed I need more time to stop or react, and is just enough light to ride safely. Sounds like most of the dynamo lights would be inadequate for my purposes.

spare_wheel

I'm not disagree with you but I used to think my 110 lumen night rider mini was the bees knees. We faster riders somehow coped quite well with far dimmer lights...

alan s 

It's amazing what I used to ride with, now that I have sufficient lights.

Forgot to mention that lumen output drops substantially over time, so output during a 1 hour commute can be cut in half, which needs to be factored into the equation. With oncoming bike lights getting stronger, you need to have sufficient light to not be blinded, and oncoming cars in a portion of my commute that runs opposite to traffic along a dark road are so blinding, it is downright scary without adequate light. Ninja runners are the norm around here, and you can just pick up a tiny reflective patch on the back of their shoe if you are lucky.

Thankfully, I am winning the arms race, and intend to keep it that way.

acidfast7

When one considers the m/s, a 3.083-fold increase in Lux at the same distance results in the same reaction time for distance to fixed point.

Come on, these are Germans, do you really they do anything randomly

A bike traveling at 20km/h would be equivalent to an auto traveling at roughly 60km/h.

That makes logical sense to me (honestly).

acidfast7

To be fair, Europe does have quite a high specific population density ... meaning houses are usually in estates and uninhabited land is protected. Indicating that people over here do encounter each other quite often ... and most of the cyclepaths are lit ... most XC ski paths in forest are lit as well

My point is that StVZO takes into account the higher probability of interaction with another motorist, cyclist or pedestrian.

acidfast7

Fair points except for the typo I can't help you on that one.

I see a battery as an extra point of failure ... usually by human negligence.

My argument was more directed at "L" that said there are no cheaper Chinese dynamo alternatives. I usually buy quality or I buy cheap. I have one quality bike and one cheap bike that both serve their purpose. I think that not having a cheap option isn't bad, because then one ends up with the quality. The middle option is bad. Having no money is bad as well.

I would also disagree about the recreational (no dynamo) vs. city bike (dynamo) ratio of purchases. In the bike-friendly places like CPH ... I can't remember the last time I didn't see a dynamo on a bike. It must be 10:1 with:without dynamos.

I would wager that 90+% of the bikes in this video have a dynamos (hub if new, wheel if old).


The UK is between the US and EU, again, I'd say that at work in the bike locker it's probably more geared to the US market with 50% of the bikes having drops and USB/battery powered lights and about 20% being MTBs and the rest just random (city bike or old ten-speed).

I do find the differences fascinating and usually break down along language borders (English versus non-English). Helmet usage is even more fascinating as it's usually country specific. The Dutch hate them, the Germans love them. What to do, what to do...

mstraus

I like to have a fairly bright light, but I don't run it on "high" all the time - I change brightness based on what is needed to be seen or see where I am going. I think multiple lights is fine, and one of them being a helmet mounted light is very convenient, both to see and be seen by cars next to you (a SUV next to me can't see my normal bike lights but more likely can see my helmet lights (front and red rear).

I don't think all bright lights are create equal as beam patterns vary. many "spill" a lot of light and throw a lot of light "high" where its more likely to be in the eyes of pedestrians and other cyclists. Unless you have a 1500 lumen light and are shinning it right in motorists eyes I think this if of minimal concern to motorists in most cases.

It seems every lighting discussion gets in a three way battle between the dynamo fans, small rechargeable LED fans, and that $20 Chinese CREE magicshine clone from amazon that certain people love.

I currently use the small rechargeable LED lights, multiple, and have been happy as they meet my needs and seem to be of high quality. I have not tried a dynamo and would not want to put on on my current bike as I don't need or want it on my bike all the time (I do road rides on it and don't want one more thing permenently attached). If it was a dedicated utility bike/commuter I might consider a dynamo. I haven't tried one of those cheap CREE lights yet, but am tempted to order one just to compare it to my current lights. I am also curious how they compare to the "real" magicshines, for anyone who has tried both.

cyccommute 

You are looking at the information the wrong way. The StVZO standard allows for a certain amount of light leakage above the beam cutoff. It's not going to have much to do with reaction time since the main beam is still has the same intensity. Bicycles are held to a tighter standard to avoid "blinding" on-coming traffic which they really can't do given their lane position and lower intensity lighting. Cars can, and do, "blind" other road users. The standard should be tighter for them than for bicycles.

acidfast7

Actually, in most cases the bikes are separated into cycle/pedestrian lanes even in rural areas. I don't interact with cars in Germany that often, therefore, I have much more trouble with cyclists and peds, in that order, rather than drivers. Even in Frankfurt or Munich.

I'm worried about being blinded by other cyclists on dual-direction separated path. I'm also worried about blinding a cyclist or a pedestrian as well. Either way a blinded cyclist or pedestrian is a major cause for concern as they can enter into my side of the dual-directional lane.

This is also a major deal in Denmark once one leaves the CPH metro area. I would assume that the Netherlands is the same but I haven't cycled there very often.

jputnam

Many others disagree about that -- bicycles can and do blind other road users in today's kilolumen-LED environment. *Most* cyclists don't blind other road users, but enough do that legislative action is essentially inevitable... the question is whether cyclists will get out ahead of that legislative action to encourage reasonable regulation, or stick their heads in the sand until unreasonable restrictions are imposed.

https://crosscut.com/2013/12/31/trans...ose-blinking-/

cyccommute 

That's precisely why I don't ride bike paths at night. Bike paths are very narrow and often have unlighted pedestrians...along with a fair number of ninja bicyclist... on them around here. You are going to be passing contraflow traffic much closer than even car traffic passes each other.

Read that article a little more closely. It addresses my point about bike paths and it's not about the output of the lamps but how annoying the flash mode is. In my opinion, there is no reason to be running a light in flash mode on the road and that goes doubly on a bike path.

gregjones

They're down below eighteen buck now. You ought to try one.

no motor?

Do you think whatever legislation that may pass will be enforced any more than the current laws regarding bike safety? Or more than noise limits for cars and motorcycles?

jputnam

Probably more aggressive than enforcement of car noise regulations ... enforcing those is unpopular because motorists are the great majority of the population.

Cyclists are a minority, and often an unpopular one at that. Unreasonable lighting restrictions could provide another tool for harassment by the same sort of police departments that ticket cyclists for leaving dangerous bike lanes or riding two abreast in the street.