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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
    I see. So anyone cutting outside of a proper line, to the outside of the turn lane would definitely be in big trouble. You had to have been ridiculously close to the left of the right-hand turn lane to give a car that much room to pass you on the outside. Can you not see that? I get that the woman was rude and impatient, no doubt it will take awhile for the stars to line up exactly that way again. But it will, eventually. Unless you change your tactics. The weight of culture is on the side of the stupid, impatient cager that cut you off. Patient and courteous? Give me a break... you are in traffic! Don't hold up people on the way to their dinner or their extra-marital affairs or whatever else is none of your business. Don't force them to be patient and courteous and you can ride a very long time without having a problem. Or keep doing it your way and have a scare every now and then. Your choice.

    H
    I didn't communicate clearly...my apologies. I was positioned in the center of the outside turn lane. As I reached the apex of the turn (past the oncoming traffic), I swung wide to head for the bike lane. At that point, the oncoming turning traffic subsided allowing her room to swing even wider than I and try to pass on the right.

    I suppose the thing to do at that intersection is to box it like a pedestrian. It's inconvenient, but safer. Right or wrong, mass kicks ass.

  2. #27
    Keepin it Wheel RubeRad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutfarmer View Post
    She honked and me and flipped me the bird (or told me that I'm #1 )...
    You mean # 3?

    I have a similar intersection every day, but I don't take the outside left-turn lane, I ride the stripe between left turn lanes and forward lanes. I get to filter up through cars on both sides, nobody can miss me going by that close to their car, and I pull forward into the crosswalk, still lined up with the lane line. When we get the left-turn arrow, I take a generously wide turn. Never had any problems with drivers crowding me; in fact, they are usually too polite (or timid) to pass me until they get through the intersection.

    It helps that for my intersection it's an unusual light pattern. First green goes to oncoming traffic, as well as oncoming left-turns. Then the oncoming left-turns get red, oncoming straight continues green, and the forward lanes in my direction go green as well. Finally, oncoming traffic gets their red, and my left-turn lane gets to go, and by that time all the forward-driving cars to my right have already cleared out, and there's no oncoming traffic to prevent me taking an exaggeratedly wide turn.

  3. #28
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    Usually drivers do a terrible job judging the line of a turn, so they cut the inside of turns. You also don't want to be crossing lanes during or immediately after the turn. So process of elimination suggests you ride on the outside of the outside left turn lane (i.e. the right hand edge of the right-most left turn lane). Almost every driver will cut the inside of the turn and thus not pass anywhere close to you, and practically no driver will go into oncoming traffic to pass on your right.

    In this case, probably you were enough to the inside (the left side) of the turn lane that this nutty lady couldn't resist the temptation to zip by your right side. She may even have considered you to be in the other turn lane, or splitting the lanes, remember again that many drivers are quite incompetent.

    "Taking the lane" only works if there is a well defined lane so that drivers see they clearly don't have room to squeeze past, then you are counting on the fact that even the most dick-ish drivers, who are willing to side-swipe a bicyclist, aren't actually willing to plow directly into said bicyclist with their front grille. In the middle of a big intersection like that, the left turn lanes are not defined, so taking the lane is a bad idea.

    Now, if doing that puts you at risk of a head-on with left-turning traffic coming the other way, then you might have to ride in the middle of the turn lane briefly, before heading for the bike lane. Most likely the driver behind you is also not going to want to risk a head-on with oncoming traffic.

    Another consideration is, if you arrive at the intersection on a red light, where do you stop? On a big intersection, I'd generally try not to be standing over my stationary bike right in the middle of the lane. Too much risk of a spaced-out driver misjudging stopping distance and plowing me into the stopped car ahead of me. So I tend to stand off to the right, in a lower gear, with a pedal cocked and watching my helmet mirror. Just like a motorcyclist will wait with 1st gear engaged, ready to release the clutch-twist the throttle-and accelerate to safety if they see a car about to rear-end them (basic motorcycle training: never sit at a traffic light in neutral.) Starting off from the right, it is natural to ride to the right through the curve. Sometimes I'll even give a "come one" hand gesture to the car behind me, if there is plenty of room for him to pass on my left. Strictly speaking it is illegal to pass another vehicle in an intersection, but I don't mind if I invited the pass.
    Last edited by jyl; 01-07-14 at 03:17 PM.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    ...So process of elimination suggests you ride on the outside of the outside left turn lane (i.e. the right hand edge of the right-most left turn lane). ....
    This is the textbook correct place to be, however IME the textbook doesn't always work out. It puts you in the wrong place for the "I changed my mind", "I didn't notice it was left turn only" and/or the "I'm here because the straight ahead traffic was backed up, and I'll jump off the line and move over one lane before the guy on my right wakes up" drivers.

    These folks will go straight ahead out of a left only lane, leaving you holding the bag (or whatever).

    I prefer to take the leftmost position, just about right on the double yellow, and cut the turn to the double yellow. This lets all the cars pass to my right, and I know no one will cut into me because that's a head on with the traffic coming from the left. Of course this leaves me on the double yellow, but I've never had a problem moving back to my lane.

    The other alternative is to do the textbook thing, but filter up to the front, and make eye contact with the driver there, so we're both on the same page with me swinging the widest turn to the right side of the road, and him staying to my left all the way through. I'll do this when I have time to get the corner, or I'll take the lane approaching the corner, then open up my left so cars can turn inside of me.

    I don't think there's one perfect way, because no matter what I do, it depends on the predictability of the drivers, so I use what seems best in each situation, but use eye contact, or my line to signal where I'm going so drivers can adjust.
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  5. #30
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    This is the textbook correct place to be, however IME the textbook doesn't always work out. It puts you in the wrong place for the "I changed my mind", "I didn't notice it was left turn only" and/or the "I'm here because the straight ahead traffic was backed up, and I'll jump off the line and move over one lane before the guy on my right wakes up" drivers.

    These folks will go straight ahead out of a left only lane, leaving you holding the bag (or whatever).

    I prefer to take the leftmost position, just about right on the double yellow, and cut the turn to the double yellow. This lets all the cars pass to my right, and I know no one will cut into me because that's a head on with the traffic coming from the left. Of course this leaves me on the double yellow, but I've never had a problem moving back to my lane.

    The other alternative is to do the textbook thing, but filter up to the front, and make eye contact with the driver there, so we're both on the same page with me swinging the widest turn to the right side of the road, and him staying to my left all the way through. I'll do this when I have time to get the corner, or I'll take the lane approaching the corner, then open up my left so cars can turn inside of me.

    I don't think there's one perfect way, because no matter what I do, it depends on the predictability of the drivers, so I use what seems best in each situation, but use eye contact, or my line to signal where I'm going so drivers can adjust.
    That would essentially be a right hook. A risk, surely, but one we can guard against as with other right hook risks - adjust speed (slowing down, typically) to avoid riding next to a car on our left. In this case, the point when such drivers are most "likely" to do weird stuff is when they enter the intersection from the outside left turn lane (they usually can't cut into the go-forward lane before that, since it is full of cars stopped on red), so I try especially hard not to be next to a car when it is first entering the intersection.

    Every intersection is unique, every day is different, every turn can bring a surprise. All we can do is maximize the odds of riding safely, there are no guarantees.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    That would essentially be a right hook. A risk, surely, but one we can guard against as with other right hook risks - adjust speed (slowing down, typically) to avoid riding next to a car on our left. In this case, the point when such drivers are most "likely" to do weird stuff ....
    ....likely to do weird stuff anytime. I described three of the many mental processes drivers go through (here in the Northeast) and theres no way of being sure if or when. Most often I see this coming off the line when the light changes, especially from the guy who used an empty left turn only lane to filter to the front of the line.

    But we agree that there's no magic formula for staying safe, so riders have to be ready to deal not only with what should happen, but what might happen.
    FB
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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  7. #32
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    I really appreciate all of the feedback that this thread brought. I've learned something from each one of you. The left turn across a multi-lane boulevard can be a challenge. Having the right-of-way doesn't mean much if you get squished.

  8. #33
    apocryphal sobriquet J.C. Koto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutfarmer View Post
    I really appreciate all of the feedback that this thread brought. I've learned something from each one of you. The left turn across a multi-lane boulevard can be a challenge. Having the right-of-way doesn't mean much if you get squished.
    Amen.

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