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-   -   The weight of adding a shimano dynamo hub? (http://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/932230-weight-adding-shimano-dynamo-hub.html)

mrbubbles 03-26-14 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulRivers (Post 16608188)
Then LED lighting came along. Even the first ones weren't that great, but every couple of years they got more efficient for the same power. While this greatly improved battery lighting, it revolutionized dynamo lighting. It was only a few years ago that the Lumotec Cyo came out, which in my opinion (having tried the 40 lux version of their other light), was the first dynamo light that actually put the kind of light that you needed on the road.

Today, it's still cheaper to buy a $30-$50 dual xml2 china light than spend $200+ on a dynamo setup.


Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulRivers (Post 16608188)
My explanation is simply that the SON used to be able to get a high price because it was a niche market, and nowadays they just haven't changed their pricing. It's like the Lexus of dynamo hubs - it's cool, but for many people it's not worth the price premium. If you're interested, Peter White lists out efficiencies on his page here -
Shimano DH-3N70 Dynohub from Peter White Cycles (Those figures may be old, all I can say is that they seem to be done at the same point in time.)

Peterwhitecycles doesn't list the efficiency of shimano hubs because he wants to sell schmidts. I had the disc version of the 3N70 (3D70) for 7 years, it died due to freezing weather, it had a good run. The newer shutters, deore lx, and deore xt dynamo hubs I'm using are lighter and more efficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulRivers (Post 16608188)
I don't know that much about the Supernova or Shutter Precision hubs, other than that I never hear about them, so I assume they're not revolutionary or anything. I've had trouble even finding either for sale in the US - I heard about them a couple of weeks ago, but could only find them for sale in Europe.

Supernova is a rebadged Shutter precision with a different shell, they are online only. Shutter precision is online only, no distribution in the us. Great hubs, highly recommended over Schmidt SONs, uses the same connectors as Shimano (the shape is different but the entry snaps in just the same).

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16610165)
Is there a dyno hub maker whose name doesn't start with 'S'?

Novatec dynamo hub. Novatec makes quality lightweight sealed bearing road hubs (have one), but their dynamo seems to be on par with the Sanyo, haven't tried it.

PaulRivers 03-26-14 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbubbles (Post 16612162)
Today, it's still cheaper to buy a $30-$50 dual xml2 china light than spend $200+ on a dynamo setup.

Actually, even cheaper - for $16 you can buy a cheap light on amazon right now. Claims 1200 lumens, probably realistically more like 600 lumens. Which is still 3 times the lumen output of my first good bike light.

The thing is - I've 4 Dinnotte lights and 2 Light and Motion lights. They range from $100 to...I don't recall exactly, $400? $600? The problem is - the beam patterns are usually "sufficient" for riding at night. But for actually being able to see? My Cyo (my dynamo light) is about tied for the #1 spot vs using both my Light and Motion lights - the Seca 900 on high, and the Seca 1400 on medium at the same time. They both have their ups and downs - the Seca combination will blind anyone coming towards you. That's 1600 lumens, 750 of which is with a specifically wide angle lens. The Cyo on the other hand, specifically doesn't blind anyone - including pedestrians and other bikers on the MUP I ride. It doesn't affect my night vision (I ride in a city, the trail is unlit but you get ambient lighting), so my eyes still see more - something no other regular beam light does.

For $130-$140, you can get a battery version of the Cyo Premium, same shaped beam but no additional dynamo cost required.

I have no interest in claiming that the dynamo or battery lights are superior to one another - they both have their advantages and disadvantages. Cheap china lights are undoubtedly cheaper at $16-$50. They're also less reliable, there's a little more worry about the battery overheating while charging because it's so cheap, they don't seem to be waterproof, they're more likely to break, etc.

For around $100 you can get a well made, waterproof, american light with a decent beam pattern - still cheaper than the dynamo.

With the dynamo, you get a worry-free light. It's never accidentally left at home when you needed it (happened to me). You never forget to charge the battery (happened to me). You never charge the battery last week, but the light drains it even though it's off because you didn't realize you had to disconnect it (happened to me). You never have your lights shut off in the middle of the ride because your batteries got old and don't hold much of a charge, without warning, leaving you in the middle of an unlit bike path (happened to me - luckily the moon was out). It's totally waterproof. You battery life doesn't go down when it's cold outside, or go into low power mode because it's cold. And of course - you never just plain end up on a ride that's longer than your battery life.

And of course if you're touring, you may not have the possibility of recharging light batteries at all, and a dynamo lets you charge other small items like a phone.

They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Niterider sells a $560 mountain bike light. Light and Motion sells a $500 battery light. I see full carbon bikes all the time, and those start at $2,000. It's like iPhone vs Android - there's plenty of reasons to go with one or the other, neither is the "winner" or has a clear consistent advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbubbles (Post 16612162)
Peterwhitecycles doesn't list the efficiency of shimano hubs because he wants to sell schmidts. I had the disc version of the 3N70 (3D70) for 7 years, it died due to freezing weather, it had a good run. The newer shutters, deore lx, and deore xt dynamo hubs I'm using are lighter and more efficient.

...I want to be very sarcastic, but when I write it out it sounds way harsher than I mean it. Go read the page, and you'll find that's not true - at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbubbles (Post 16612162)
Supernova is a rebadged Shutter precision with a different shell, they are online only. Shutter precision is online only, no distribution in the us. Great hubs, highly recommended over Schmidt SONs, uses the same connectors as Shimano (the shape is different but the entry snaps in just the same).

Novatec dynamo hub. Novatec makes quality lightweight sealed bearing road hubs (have one), but their dynamo seems to be on par with the Sanyo, haven't tried it.


mrbubbles 03-26-14 03:07 AM

I use both systems extensively, you said many things that have been said before and doesn't need repeating, you are also overexaggerating the benefits of dynamo system greatly.

PaulRivers 03-26-14 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbubbles (Post 16612251)
I use both systems extensively, you said many things that have been said before and doesn't need repeating, you are also overexaggerating the benefits of dynamo system greatly.

You're the same guy who said Peter White doesn't list the efficiencies of Shimano hubs on his page because he wants to sell SON hubs, in reference to me posting a direct link to his site where he directly listed out the efficiencies of the Shimano hub - right?

noglider 03-26-14 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbubbles (Post 16612251)
I use both systems extensively, you said many things that have been said before and doesn't need repeating, you are also overexaggerating the benefits of dynamo system greatly.

[PEDANT MODE]What's the difference between exaggeration and overexaggeration?[/PEDANT MODE] ;)

Walter S 03-26-14 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16613069)
[PEDANT MODE]What's the difference between exaggeration and overexaggeration?[/PEDANT MODE] ;)

None really. To quote Urban Dictionary...

Only idiots say overexaggerate :lol:

PaulRivers 03-26-14 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by downtube42 (Post 16608210)
Direct order from their site.
SP Dynamo System

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstraus (Post 16609674)
You can also order online from INTELLIGENT DESIGN CYCLES WEB or All | Sinewave Cycles

Wow, thanks for posting that. I looked at the direct order site, it looked like you could order but they only took a foreign currency (which paypal would convert for you). The site was kind of confusing, and they listed a lot of dynamo hubs.

The second set of links was definitely better...wish there was more info out there on them. All dynamo hubs put out the same amount of power - the differences are in efficiency (which is for a very small load to being with anyways, etc.

WestMass 03-26-14 05:06 PM

Intelligent Design site is really cool. The guy from the site is really helpful and responsive on e-mail.

I purchased the Herrmans H-Track tail light and the Herrmans H-One S head light from them for my first dynamo set up (the result of my original post)

Herrmans H-Track - Herrmans - Dynamo Taillamps | Intelligentdesigncycles
Herrmans H-One S - Herrmans - Dynamo Headlamps | Intelligentdesigncycles

While I don't have any other dynamo lighting experience - I have used a decent amount of headlights and tail lights over the past few years - and both of these are VERY bright. This video I made shows it somewhat - but I feel very confident riding with these in the dark. (The blinking light is not one of the dynamo lights)

[video=youtube;uBR8vVjk6gw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBR8vVjk6gw[/video]

Lex Fati 03-26-14 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulRivers (Post 16613210)
All dynamo hubs put out the same amount of power - the differences are in efficiency (which is for a very small load to being with anyways, etc.

This isn't entirely accurate, though 6v 3w has been the standard for a long time. Though most dynamos are designed to output 6v 3w, wheel size is a factor. With Schmidt, for instance the Son 28 is rated 6v 3w on a 700c wheel at a given speed, whereas the SonDelux is designed to output the same at near the same speed on a 20" wheel. This means that the SonDelux produces less output at the same RPM. Peter White has a discussion about this in the SonDelux section on his website. Similarly, with the Shutter Precision hubs 8 series, the P model hubs output more than the S models on the same size rim. I believe its 3w for the P models and 2.4w for the S on a 700c wheel. Also, there is a Shimano 1.5 watt hub out there. I don't doubt there are other non-standard designs out there as well.

PaulRivers 03-27-14 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex Fati (Post 16615476)
This isn't entirely accurate, though 6v 3w has been the standard for a long time. Though most dynamos are designed to output 6v 3w, wheel size is a factor. With Schmidt, for instance the Son 28 is rated 6v 3w on a 700c wheel at a given speed, whereas the SonDelux is designed to output the same at near the same speed on a 20" wheel. This means that the SonDelux produces less output at the same RPM. Peter White has a discussion about this in the SonDelux section on his website. Similarly, with the Shutter Precision hubs 8 series, the P model hubs output more than the S models on the same size rim. I believe its 3w for the P models and 2.4w for the S on a 700c wheel. Also, there is a Shimano 1.5 watt hub out there. I don't doubt there are other non-standard designs out there as well.

Technically that's true, but my point was about dynamos with the standard and common design. Sometimes people think that a better quality dynamo will get them light or something, and that's not how it works. Pretty much all (I'm sure there's an exception somewhere) of the dynamo lights assume a 6v 3w hub.

Lex Fati 03-27-14 06:00 PM

Sorry I missed your point, Paul. It is a valid one.

Mr IGH 03-28-14 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulRivers (Post 16616560)
Technically that's true, but my point was about dynamos with the standard and common design. Sometimes people think that a better quality dynamo will get them light or something, and that's not how it works. Pretty much all (I'm sure there's an exception somewhere) of the dynamo lights assume a 6v 3w hub.

That's not correct. While most hubs are rated at 3W, in real life you can get lots more out of Shimano, SP and SON hubs. I've pulled 12W out of a Shimano 3D-71. Some LED lights take advantage of that such as the SuperNova triple. It will not run off of an Sturmey 3W hub, needs Shimano, SP or SON to operate. When I looked at SafeRide my first question was will it run off of a Sturmey 3W dyno.

BTW, there is an even wimpier Sturmey dyno, 2.4W. Be careful when purchasing discount Sturmey dynos, some of the 'bay offerings have been the 2.4W version. The very old steel Sturmey dyno hub is only good for ~1.8W.

Here's a website with good info on how extra power is pulled from the better dynos:
Dynamo LED Light Systems for Bicycles (electronic circuits)

Mr IGH 03-28-14 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 16611482)
...the ebay auctions don't mention it

I bought off the 'bay from the Intelligent Design guy and it included the adapter. There's also a ebay seller that makes an adapter:
Headset Tools, Wheel Adapters items in mtbtools store on eBay!

PaulRivers 03-28-14 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex Fati (Post 16618007)
Sorry I missed your point, Paul. It is a valid one.

Cool, that's totally fine, I just didn't want the idea to degenerate into a bunch of niche and edge points. For most people thinking about getting a dynamo, they all put out the same amount of power, you don't have to worry you'll get a less expensive unit and your light won't be as bright or something - they all power the lights the same.

Technically, there are other dymamos out there somewhere that put out different amounts of power - don't buy them. :-)

Mr IGH 03-28-14 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulRivers (Post 16620543)
...you don't have to worry you'll get a less expensive unit and your light won't be as bright or something - they all power the lights the same....


That's not correct.


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