PaulRivers

Here's what I know...

Hub vs Rim dynamo

I personally don't find any reason to go with a rim dynamo. Many of the advantages go away - you can't leave a rim dynamo on your bike without the change of it being stolen, when it's on it has more drag than a hub dynamo, and it can have issues if your rim gets wet or icy. While there are a few interesting things about them, having a rim dynamo largely negated the convenience factor which motivated me to get a dynamo in the first place. Most people (not everyone, but most) go with the hub dynamo.

Which Hub Dynamo

Sanyo H27 - $135 for a prebuilt wheel. Cheapest version. Rolling resistance when on is similar to the Shimano version, rolling resistance when off doesn't really change (unlike the Shimano version). It's a little lower quality in general vs the Shimano hub, I've read more about it giving vibrations while riding and such.

Shimano 3d-72 - $214 for a prebuilt wheel. Rolling resistance similar to the Sanyo when on, but much lower when off. Note that by "much" I mean relatively speaking - I have trouble telling the difference when actually riding the bike. The Peter White site lists out the efficiency, and there was another article somewhere on it to. It's also a little higher quality hub overall vs the Sanyo.

Son28 - $380 for a prebuilt wheel. Very slightly more efficient than the Shimano. Supposedly more serviceable, but I don't really know if it is or it isn't. Since it costs almost twice as much, and only has slightly more efficiency, I don't think it's worth it unless you **really** ride a lot. Since I've never had a front hub wear out, I went with the Shimano.

So basically it's between the cheaper Sanyo or the more expensive but slightly nicer Shimano.

This is where my prices are from, they're similar to the prices I've seen everywhere else -
Custom Dynamo Front Wheel

Which Dynamo Light?

If you're road riding (any sort of flattish trail, any riding that's not mountain biking through the woods), in my opinion, there's only 1 choice - the Lumotec Cyo premium ($110). There are cheaper lights but I think the extra cost is worth it. There's 1 light that's more expensive, but I don't think it's worth it - you get 10 more lux (80 vs 90) but it costs twice as much. The Lumotec Cyo Premium, imo, is the best cost-benefit ratio.

Now - if you're touring, or need usb charging, there's also the Lumotec Luxos IQ2. It provides usb charging from the hub, which is nice. But it's drawbacks are:
- It's much more expensive ($250)
- It's large - about 4 times physically larger than the Cyo Premium
- At least one poster here had both and thought the beam pattern on it was worse than on the Cyo Premium (that's just one opinion though)

The B&M (same company as makes Lumotec) E-Werk is a seperate device that provides usb power via the dynamo as well, it's $144, so the Cyo Premium + E-Werk cost is almost exactly the same as buy a Lumotec Luxos IQ2.

If you're mountain biking, there are other choices of lights that don't have a cutoff, but I'm not as familiar with that, and I won't go into it as it sounds like you're not mountain biking anyways. (Difference is, the road lights have a cutoff like a car headlight, which imo is a really great beam pattern for biking on the road - I say this from experience riding with a Cyo and also riding with several different battery lights. A mountain bike dynamo lights uses the traditional round beam, which is better for illuminating twisty turns and low hanging branches, but worse, imo and experience, for someone riding on the road.)

Conclusion

So basically, for the hub - it's Sanyo vs the Shimano.
For the light, it's Cyo Premium vs IQ2.

acidfast7

noglider 

I'm using the Sanyo hub. I really don't notice the vibration often. I imagine others will. I'm using 32mm tires and only inflate the front to about 60 or 70, and I might let it get lower than 60, so that could explain why I only notice it occasionally. I haven't used any other dynamo hubs, and if I did, it might make me less satisfied with the Sanyo. On the other hand, that would be dumb, wouldn't it? Suddenly, I would notice its shortcomings? Well, maybe not dumb, but you may quote me as saying in March of 2014 that I am 100% satisfied with it. I've read a handful of reports of mechanical problems with Shimano hubs and none of Sanyos.

PaulRivers, that's a good post, but I don't know about any rim dynamos. The bottle dynamos I have seen and used rub on the sidewall of the tire, not the rim.

mstraus

Thanks for the detailed reply. It seems there must be some reason SON justify the price.

What about other manufactures, such as Supernova or ShutterPrecision hubs?

acidfast7

Handbuilt in a small workshop in Germany under socially environmentally friendly conditions.

About SON

Most days I miss living/working in Germany.

https://www.nabendynamo.de/wir/25jahrfeier_en.html

mstraus

That is definitely worth a premium price, but not one everyone is willing to pay. Hopefully the quality of the product is also very good to justify that premium.

PaulRivers

Ha, yeah, I've seen posts from people like you saying they're using the Sanyo hubs and liking them, that's why I suggest them. :-)

Sorry, I mean bottle dynamo's - I've heard of rim dynamo's existing, but haven't seen more than 1 thread on them either.

Lex Fati

First, I'm extremely happy with my SON wheels. That said, my experience with the ShutterPrecision is very good so far. The PV-8 hub is similar in size and shape to the newer SON 28, though the distance between the flanges is less. At half the cost, I didn't feel at all bad about using one on a cyclocross that I'm willing to subject to more abuse during winter and off pavement. They claim to be even more efficient than the SON, but the truth is I can't notice the difference when using the same light as a comparison (Lumotec IQ Cyo R).

The SON does have an intrinsic beauty to it, though. I've read how folks describe Campagnolo parts as works of art, and believe the Schmidt SON to be the equivalent in the dynamo world.

downtube42

I've run a Sanyo on my commuter for about 5 years. I leave the light on always, so the higher resistance when off is not relevant. I do notice vibration but on a short commute it doesn't bother me. My commuter sits outside every day, and I'm glad to have a relatively inexpensive dyno option.

I ran a Shimano over three years of randonneuring, including one 1200k and one 1000k as well as two super randonneuring series and quite a bit of training. It performed flawlessly, and no noticable vibration. I wouldn't go with the Sanyo in this application, because of the vibration and drag when off.

With a new bike I've build up a wheel using a Shutter Precision PV-8. So far so good... only about 500 miles at this point. I have not noticed any vibration.

WalksOn2Wheels

So I hadn't checked in on this thread in a while. Wow. Lots of back and forth here.

I wanted to give some insight into the shop perspective. Lots of people here are talking about "Shops should stock this and that and stop ignoring this market." Much easier said than done. There are two factors here: customer base and inventory on hand vs. demand.

The typical U.S. customer base tends to have two spectrums, the high end and the family market. The high end guys want light, fast machines and the extra weight/expense of a dynamo vs. a small removable light makes zero sense. The family market is buying stock bikes ranging from 2 or 300 dollar kids bikes and 5 or 600 dollar adult hybrids. These folks are looking for recreation, and if they buy lights, they're little 15 dollar flashing lights for visibility only. I've talked to maybe a maximum of 5 customers who were looking to do serious commuting in the 2 years I've been there.

So given this, let's imagine the odds that someone even asks about dynamo lights. Let's see, in the two years I've been there, only one person has inquired into it: myself. Ok, so I looked it up and hubs are easily available, no problem. Even some prebuilt wheels from the two bigger distributors. All of this stuff is less than a week away by special order. So there is zero reason to stock it. If someone is seriously interested, they're probably willing to wait a few days.

So great, now I had hub options. What about lights? "Yeah, what about 'em?" the distributor website seems to ask. I could order some very pricey Supernova lights, retailing at 200+ dollars. And that's about it. The other big 2 (B&M and Schmidt) work dealer direct as far as I understand, and it isn't worth the hassle to set it up for the single customer that asks 5 years after the last person asked you. So they direct folks to the internet, that is, if they even get those folks in the first place.

Alternatively, you can tell them you can order 350-400 dollars worth of equipment, and charge labor to install. Or, hey, here's a 250 lumen USB-rechargeable light that includes an easy handlebar mount for 85 bucks. Even the serious rider will probably just opt for the cheaper option that works on multiple bikes.


On a personal note, I did go the dynamo route and now two other folks at the shop are in the process of planning a dynamo setup for their commuting bikes. And another employee did the Tour Divide last summer and is planning on going the dynamo route for endurance events. So it's not like anyone at the shop didn't know about them, it's just that the culture in the U.S. is such that even if a customer was seriously inquiring about it, even a knowledgable shop employee would eventually get to the point of sending them online for lights.

PaulRivers

It's my understanding that back in the day, (if they existed yet), batteries were poor, expensive, and heavy. Dynamo hubs let you get a very small amount of light, but it was *some* light, for riding at night.

Eventually battery technology improved - greatly. Dynamo's became basically worthless for the average consumer. They had some niche uses - people would use them for 24 hour racing where batteries that lasted all night could be impractical. But on average - they put an incredibly crappy amount of light, they were very expensive, while battery lights were much cheaper and also put out more light. I mean a cheap AA battery light put out the same amount of light as a dynamo - they were pathetic. They were kind of like Ham radio, Records, or using Horses to get around - they had some niche uses (ever tried to drive a car where there's no road? horses are better at it), but they became mostly fringe.

Sanyo seems to be the only company that was making dynamo hubs at the time. I'm sure they made great hubs, but they charged a premium.

Then LED lighting came along. Even the first ones weren't that great, but every couple of years they got more efficient for the same power. While this greatly improved battery lighting, it revolutionized dynamo lighting. It was only a few years ago that the Lumotec Cyo came out, which in my opinion (having tried the 40 lux version of their other light), was the first dynamo light that actually put the kind of light that you needed on the road.

When LED lighting came around, to my knowledge, before that Shimano didn't make a dynamo hub. It wasn't worth it - it was a tiny market that wasn't going anywhere. But with LED lighting, suddenly, things were a lot more promising. Shimano started selling a dynamo hub priced significantly less than the SON. Then Sanyo released their hub which is cheaper still (though as mentioned, it's efficiency doesn't really improve when you turn it off, like it does on the Shimano or the SON).

My explanation is simply that the SON used to be able to get a high price because it was a niche market, and nowadays they just haven't changed their pricing. It's like the Lexus of dynamo hubs - it's cool, but for many people it's not worth the price premium. If you're interested, Peter White lists out efficiencies on his page here -
Shimano DH-3N70 Dynohub from Peter White Cycles (Those figures may be old, all I can say is that they seem to be done at the same point in time.)

I don't know that much about the Supernova or Shutter Precision hubs, other than that I never hear about them, so I assume they're not revolutionary or anything. I've had trouble even finding either for sale in the US - I heard about them a couple of weeks ago, but could only find them for sale in Europe.

PaulRivers

I see you're from Columbus, Indiana - how did you get your Shutter Precision hub? Where did you order it from? :-)

downtube42

Direct order from their site.
SP Dynamo System

acidfast7

That's fine. Not everyone has to be willing to pay. It is a business after all (with 50% tax almost).

The quality of the product compared to Shimano is slightly irrelevant.

mstraus

Thanks for your input on the SP. Would shorter distance between flanges mean a weaker wheel? That seems like it could potentially be a problem for touring, etc. Or do you think it is insignificant?

mstraus

You can also order online from INTELLIGENT DESIGN CYCLES WEB or All | Sinewave Cycles

mstraus

Thanks for the insight from the shop perspective. It pretty much aligns with what I expected from my consumer point of view.

From looking at Peter White's site, it sounds like they are a distributor for a SON, B&M and other dynamo/dynamo lights and have relationships with many shops Dealer listing at Peter White Cycles - I guess any shop that was interested could get the stuff from them and make their % on products plus labor. Turns out one of the stores listed here is fairly close (I bike past it on my commute) so I may stop in and see how much experience they have with dynamos. So far I mostly got blank looks at some other stores when I asked about them, as they cater mostly to the two groups you mention, plus the hard core mountain biking crowed which is huge here.

mstraus

I understand they can't operate their business they way they want and beat Shimano at prices. I also didn't say that I wasn't willing to pay. I often will pay a premium for products that are local, from socially conscious companies, higher quality, hand made, etc. When I do I like to know that I am getting a product that is at least the same quality though typically higher quality then the alternative. For this reason, product quality compared to Shimano is somewhat relevant to me. Lower weight, better durability, higher efficiency, even if slight, may help justify part of that premium (as well as supporting the little guy vs Shimano). Honestly I don't think the question for me is Shimano vs SON, I think its more SON vs SP or Supernova, but who knows what I will decide as I do more research and in the end it may be based on who I have build my wheel (assuming I buy the hub from them too).

pdlamb

One other note on the SON is that it has "pressure compensation," a long thin tube attached to a vent hole. The theory is that this allows hot-cold cycles without sucking moisture into the interior of the hub. This should prevent corrosion and make the hub and electrical guts last longer.

(My SON works as well as my Shimano, FWIW.)

noglider 

Is there a dyno hub maker whose name doesn't start with 'S'?

CrankyOne

Chinamo? :-)

Mr IGH

Thanks for the kind words, it's my city bike. Rear hub is a Nexus 8R35 with a roller brake.

Cigar II, My Ultimate City Bike based on a Sports Tourer frame/fork



Cigar label decoupage for the ultimate politically incorrect finish

Mr IGH

I bought the 15mm thru axle version (with 9mm converter) for one of my mountain bikes, it's holding up just fine on the front range in Colorado. The SON was $410, the SP was $210. New measurements claim the SP is slightly better, for half the price. I was all ready to buy the SON then I saw the SP, haven't regretted it (but I've never owned or ridden a SON, just Shimano, Sturmey (old and new) and SRAM).

Lex Fati

I'm not convinced the flange distance of the SP is so short as to cause a problem for under normal conditions, but I do consider the 12mm difference enough to be worth noting when comparing the two hubs (50mm flange to flange distance on the SP vs the 62mm on the SON 28). I have stumbled across at least one account of a brevet rider using the SP hub and being satisfied, so I wouldn't be afraid to use one on long-distance rides.

Flange to flange distance correlates to lateral stiffness of the wheel. I'm not experienced enough to know if that necessarily means strength. It has been a long, cold winter and I've probably just been spending too much of it reading this stuff on the Internet.

unterhausen

did you get that direct, or from the guy on ebay? The SP site mentions that they include the 9mm converter, the ebay auctions don't mention it