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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    I sometimes forget that not everyone here at the forum is American. Of course America is a republic. I am sure they do things much differently in your "democratic nation". So nice that in you country they still study civics! So few Americans even remember what "civic duty" actually means.
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=representative+democracy
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 02-20-14 at 02:34 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Show some evidence. While you are at it explain how moving a bicycle next to a line of cars results in less emission risk to a bicycle than staying stationary behind one car. If I'm stationary behind a single car in a line of 10 cars, I'm sampling the emissions from a single tailpipe. If you are filtering from the back of the line of 10 cars, you are sampling all ten tailpipes and getting the emission from the car in the front of the line. Then you are getting the emissions from the other 10 tailpipes as they pass you again when the line starts to move.
    Some previous studies were posted here but there are also some more recent ones. I'll start a separate thread when I have more time.


    as they pass you again when the line starts to move.
    i'm long gone by the time this happens.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    IME, it's safer than filtering curb side since you are less likely to be doored or hooked. Gaps are the things I watch out for since they may allow a lane change by an upstream vehicle. In practice, the risk of traffic beginning to move again is low since you should have plenty of advance warning and time to re-insert.
    I've done it, and there are a few intersections where it's unavoidable (2nd Ave. and Houston comes to mind; the bike lane goes between two lanes of traffic and through a weird strange multi-lane intersection), but I don't like it. It leaves me feeling like I could get crushed like a bug. Getting wedged between two lanes of moving traffic has too many moving parts, and there's little room to maneuver if someone encroaches on your "lane" and puts on the squeeze. I won't filter past a bus unless I have a lot of room,, or I'm quite sure nothing is going to move. The bus driver probably can't see you, and there really is nowhere to go if someone decides to squeeze your little fraction of a lane.

  4. #104
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    Here, chew on this VCers like Dave Cotter and Aunt Roady in Illinois ...........

    (b) The driver of a 2 wheeled vehicle may not pass upon the right of any other vehicle proceeding in the same direction unless the unobstructed pavement to the right of the vehicle being passed is of a width of not less than 8 feet. This subsection does not apply to devices propelled by human power.
    (c) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the roadway.
    (Source: P.A. 98-485, eff. 1-1-14.)

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by jralbert View Post
    If the intersection is so crazy that there's no safe way for me to completely take the lane, I'd dismount and cross both ways as a pedestrian - probably beating the left-turn lane anyway. Totally legal, minimally inconvenient, near-zero risk - which is exactly how I want to ride.
    Human beings are terrible at assessing risk.
    2013: 7 out of 10 pedestrians killed by motorists in Portland were walking in a crosswalk with a signal.
    2013: 0 (ZERO) cyclists were killed by motorists in Portland
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilfried View Post
    I've done it, and there are a few intersections where it's unavoidable (2nd Ave. and Houston comes to mind; the bike lane goes between two lanes of traffic and through a weird strange multi-lane intersection), but I don't like it. It leaves me feeling like I could get crushed like a bug. Getting wedged between two lanes of moving traffic has too many moving parts, and there's little room to maneuver if someone encroaches on your "lane" and puts on the squeeze. I won't filter past a bus unless I have a lot of room,, or I'm quite sure nothing is going to move. The bus driver probably can't see you, and there really is nowhere to go if someone decides to squeeze your little fraction of a lane.
    Most of the time the vehicles are motionless or moving at a crawl with many blocks of similarly stuck traffic ahead. I'm definitely more cautious around large trucks or buses but yypically there is fair amount of space between lanes.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
    Here, chew on this VCers like Dave Cotter and Aunt Roady in Illinois ...........

    (b) The driver of a 2 wheeled vehicle may not pass upon the right of any other vehicle proceeding in the same direction unless the unobstructed pavement to the right of the vehicle being passed is of a width of not less than 8 feet. This subsection does not apply to devices propelled by human power.
    (c) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the roadway.
    (Source: P.A. 98-485, eff. 1-1-14.)
    Bwahahahahahah!
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Human beings are terrible at assessing risk.
    2013: 7 out of 10 pedestrians killed by motorists in Portland were walking in a crosswalk with a signal.
    2013: 0 (ZERO) cyclists were killed by motorists in Portland
    I don't live in Portland. Again, I make a decision based on the level of risk I am willing to accept (based of course on my own judgment of risk, which you correctly note is subjective), and my personal desire to obey the laws of my society, however trivial, unless there's a compelling reason not to. Doing things the way I do on the bike, in my city, at my skill level, I feel relatively safe while riding in traffic; your mileage will obviously vary.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Aunt Roady's Avatar
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    Well okay then. As of the beginning of this year it's legal in illinois. Good find.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    The problem is that everyone isn't spread out. The point of this thread is whether to filter to the front of a line of stopped cars. The exhaust from the cars is going to start mixing as so as the line starts to form. The wind pressure from the cars' movement is going to sweep the exhaust gases from the back to the front of the line so the front of the line is actually going to have a higher concentration of any kind of exhaust gases. At the intersection, you are going to have a collision of gas streams from the intersecting street so the concentration is going to be even higher. If you want to avoid breathing emissions, the last place you should be is at the head of the line.
    You've apparently got the complex flow of gases at an intersection all figured out. I'm glad I don't need to wonder if you're right. I already know that the air is fresher in front of the line of cars. On a major road I'm 40 or 50 feet from the cars at the cross street. And further from any tail pipes by virtue of being in front. And my nose knows.

    Aside from all that, emissions is rather low on the list of reasons (like my safety) why I filter.

  11. #111
    Senior Member Mr. Hairy Legs's Avatar
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    I didn't find Interceptor's stuff scary at all. The traffic is so slow there that it's probably no more dangerous than walking through a parking lot at Wal-Mart.

    You want scary? Here ya go:


  12. #112
    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hairy Legs View Post
    I didn't find Interceptor's stuff scary at all. The traffic is so slow there that it's probably no more dangerous than walking through a parking lot at Wal-Mart.

    You want scary? Here ya go:

    Now that's filtering! Not sure holding onto a moving car is the greatest idea.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hairy Legs View Post
    I didn't find Interceptor's stuff scary at all. The traffic is so slow there that it's probably no more dangerous than walking through a parking lot at Wal-Mart.

    You want scary? Here ya go:

    A special type of filter - the strainer.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddywookie View Post
    Sadly, Mr. Hairy Legs died this morning. Witnesses say he was 'holdin up traffic like a mother#$#^#$,' and was crushed under the tiny, tiny wheels of a Honda Insight.
    Wow. Pretty damn bold to post a fake death story about a fellow member of BF no? For some noble purpose?

  15. #115
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Some previous studies were posted here but there are also some more recent ones. I'll start a separate thread when I have more time.
    I look forward to it but I won't hold my breath.


    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    i'm long gone by the time this happens.
    Gone where? Do you fly away? Have you figured out how to "jaunt" as described in "The Stars My Destination". If you pass a line of cars, get out in front of them and then continue on down the same road, the cars are eventually going to pass you again...and again....and again...all the while exposing you to even higher concentrations of those nasty (imaginary) toxins, teratogens and carcinogens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
    You've apparently got the complex flow of gases at an intersection all figured out. I'm glad I don't need to wonder if you're right. I already know that the air is fresher in front of the line of cars. On a major road I'm 40 or 50 feet from the cars at the cross street. And further from any tail pipes by virtue of being in front. And my nose knows.
    Wow! That's some setback! I didn't realize that Georgia had that much land! Of course it may only be in your area because I've been to Georgia and I've never seen an intersection where the intersection was set back 40 to 50 feet from the perpendicular lanes. You do realize that a standard lane in 11 to 15 feet, don't you? Your 40 to 50 foot set back is 3 to 4+ lanes. In my state (and the parts of Georgia I've been in), the set back is the width of a crosswalk plus a little. In total about 15 feet. If you filter to the front of the line and stop in the crosswalk like most people I've seen who filter do, you are less than 5 feet from the cross traffic.

    I do, by the way, have a better understanding of the complex flow of air around moving vehicles than you seem to. I also am not under the misguided impression that my "nose knows". I'm a chemist, there are lots and lots and lots of chemicals that the human nose has no ability to detect. Not that there are many "toxic" chemicals to detect in our modern automotive fleet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
    Aside from all that, emissions is rather low on the list of reasons (like my safety) why I filter.
    I was not addressing your concerns about emissions but those of other posters. I was addressing your comments about the dynamics of air mixing along roadways.

    As for filtering increasing your "safety", I have yet to see how making a line of cars pass a bicyclist over and over and over again makes you safer. It's more convenient but not safer.
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  16. #116
    Senior Member Slaninar's Avatar
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    Madness? THIS... IS... FILTERING!!!!

    Evviva il comunismo e la libertÓ.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
    Wow. Pretty damn bold to post a fake death story about a fellow member of BF no? For some noble purpose?
    I am deeply regretful for causing your distress and dismay. Also, it was wryly amusing in context.
    Last edited by teddywookie; 02-21-14 at 07:41 AM. Reason: forgot the "causing." It's a non-apology without the causing.

  18. #118
    Senior Member Mr. Hairy Legs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
    Madness? THIS... IS... FILTERING!!!!

    I've always felt that motorcycles and cocaine were a bad combination.

  19. #119
    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddywookie View Post
    I am deeply regretful for causing your distress and dismay. Also, it was wryly amusing in context.
    Your response was better before editing. The purpose the "fake death story" was to amuse your fellow bike commuters, which is totally noble.

  20. #120
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    Cyccommute - in my neck of the woods I'm being passed by a constant flow of cars. Whether the same ones pass me several times or not, I'm never at "the end of the line".

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    If you pass a line of cars, get out in front of them and then continue on down the same road, the cars are eventually going to pass you again...
    I clear downtown portland in 7-10 minutes during periods where the average vehicle is stuck in traffic 20+ minutes. In fact, my ~5 mile return commute takes as little as ~18 min by bike and 40+ by motorvehicle.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 02-21-14 at 01:33 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    Now that's filtering! Not sure holding onto a moving car is the greatest idea.

    weaving through slower moving traffic is not scary -- it's fun.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

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