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  1. #51
    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    They don't take much tweaking at all;less than rim brakes in fact. If your friends' brakes are making that much noise,they prolly don't have them set up right,or are running metallic pads.



    Just check with the custodians at your job and see if you can get a green Scotchbrite pad(or part of one).


    .....
    I realize you're the patron saint of disc brakes, so I'll tread lightly

    Of course I'm exaggerating, as far as the frequency/level of noise, but the noise is noticeable during rainy ides on the street, on dew-y early morning trail rides, and on long rides where the discs get hot. I'm pretty sure Avid BB-_'s are the most popular, and I was running BB7s BITD when I was a disc guy (I actually just bought a BB7 to run up front on an upcoming project, but /I digress.) I see that current BB7s come with sintered pads, but I don't know what came stock in years past, nor am I sure what's on the offending squawkers today, but it's worth looking into.

    The issue I had with my disc-equipped bike had mostly to do with long trail rides and/or sustained downhills, which led to warped rotors. Warped rotors equals rubbing on the pad, which made a little whisper of a noise all the time and lost efficiency, plus annoying squeals if I was feathering the brakes or applying any low-level of pressure. I could "fix" it by dialing out the pads or cable tension, but that led to sloppy feel at the lever and, or I could try to straighten the rotor and stuff but, in the end, it was a way bigger hassle than v-brakes, which are quiet and plenty strong enough for xc-type riding and JRA/commuting, which is the kind of riding I do anyway.

    Rim brakes need what? A pad adjustment from time to time as the pads wear and ride up, plus the wheels need to be pretty true. Fact is, you should keep your wheels fairly true even with hub-brakes, so NBD. As someone whose rim brakes are in-tune and can stop the bike quickly and surely, I fail to see how the added weight/expense/noise/hassle of disc brakes will help me for commutes and casual trail riding....

    As for green scotch brite pads: they sell those at every grocery store. No need to pester the custodian...

  2. #52
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Brown 'scotchbrite' at the hardare store has abrasive grit in it, stocked with the sandpaper , here.

  3. #53
    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    If you go this route, invest in some Huffy decals or something like that.
    Rattle-can paint job should do the trick. Or, if it's an older used mtb, the stock paint/decals should show a good bit of "patina". I know a guy who uses the train a lot, and his weapon-of-choice for extended lockups at a high-theft train station is a mid-90s steel trek, which still has the bulk of its original Altus (low-level Shimano) group on it. He painted it a flat grey color, as "Trek" stickers do attract thieves, at least here in Jersey. He keeps it tuned up, replaces stuff as needed, and added fenders (I think) and street tires, but other than that,he spends little time/money/effort on the thing. It might get stolen, eventually, but it will rarely be the most enticing rig on the rack, or even a top-5 contender, on most days. But, it's a good, reliable bike that has cost him very little money.

  4. #54
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Nooo...they use Roller brakes. Big difference. Roller brakes suck.
    True, I was using the blanket marketing term "drums" as it's more familiar to many, and rollers are generally considered to be a subset of drum brakes.

    And, to be fair, suck is dependant on context. I understand that rollers are generally considered unsuitable for sustained, high-speed use (eg: a highly technical downhill course) due to their inability to rapidly dissipate heat, but for an urban bikeshare bike which is generally run at low speeds, they're absolutely ideal. Robust, low-maintenance, all but vandal-proof, and above all, impervious to weather. The brakes on the Bixi / Citibikes may not be the best in the world, and you can definitely feel differences in the adjustment as you move from one bike to another as I do every day, but like discs they are totally impervious to rain, snow, etc. You can ride a Citibike through several inches of snowy slush (and I have on many occasions) with no loss of braking effectiveness whatsoever. Tire traction is another matter entirely, but that's just a question of rider skill.

    For those interested, here are the Citibrakes, rear and front:


  5. #55
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    Rim brakes need what? A pad adjustment from time to time as the pads wear and ride up, plus the wheels need to be pretty true. Fact is, you should keep your wheels fairly true even with hub-brakes, so NBD.
    As someone who has owned several bikes with both, I do have to agree that the adjustment of rim brakes is much more "fiddly."

    With mechanical disc brakes, you basically just have one screw to turn, which moves the fixed pad in and out, and then a second adjustment for the moving pad which is similar to any other cable-operated brake. That's it.

    With rim brakes, you have those same adjustments, plus you have to set the spring-centering with two more screws, plus you have to set the alignment of both pads in four axis (height, rotation, toe and camber), all of which are simultaneously locked and released with a single screw. I find this to be much more difficult and time-consuming than just setting the in-out position of a disc pad to compensate for wear.


    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    I fail to see how the added weight/expense/noise/hassle of disc brakes will help me for commutes and casual trail riding....
    I hear a lot of people say things like this, and I'll never understand why.

    Discs are not significantly more expensive than rim brakes. This might have been true at one time, but the Chinese have gotten on-board now. If you add in the fact that disc brakes do not abrade the rim and will tolerate some runout, they can actually wind up being cheaper over time.

    Discs are not universally noisier than rim brakes. While there may be some rim-brake compounds that are significantly quieter than some disc-brake compounds, I can say quite affirmatively that the rim brakes on my current Schwinn (SwissStop green front, OEM black rubber rear) are much louder than the Tektro Novelas on my Giant Revel 1 (the e-bike) under hard braking.

    And far from being more hassle, discs, in my experience, are significantly LESS hassle than rim brakes. I have literally never done anything at all to the discs on my e-bike (which is very heavy and runs at 25-30 MPH) other than occasionally nudge the pads in and replace them once a year or so.

    As for weight, well, I have to admit that I've never weighed a complete disc setup and a complete rim setup. If a difference does exist, then we're literally talking about a few ounces. That might matter to an olympic-level cyclist, but to even mention it in the context of a commuter is ludicrous. I ride steel-framed bikes with fenders and cargo baskets and carry a Kryptonite lock that weighs a couple of pounds. To argue that disc brakes are worse that rim brakes in this context because of their weight makes me thing you're just trying to be deliberately contrarian. I race in Cat-6, not Cat-1.
    Last edited by Joe Perez; 04-02-14 at 09:05 AM.

  6. #56
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Anyway, finished the front rim last night and buffed the other pad.




    Did a quick-n-dirty test this morning, dumping some water onto the front and then doing a few hard stops. It's definitely improved a great deal. It's a long way from disc performance, but I can probably live with it. Not an entirely definitive test since there's no ice on the rim, but it looks like we're done with snowfall for the year at this point.

    So, I think I'll be ordering another one of these bikes and setting it up identically to the first one, with the exception that I'll probably go with 700x40 tires rather than 700x35, simply because of the fact that the roads in Manhattan are much worse than in Hoboken in terms of steel plates, exposed cobblestones, potholes with jagged edges, etc.


    Any reason why I should pick something other than my usual Michelin City this time? (Cheng Shin Crucible, Kenda Kwest, etc...)

  7. #57
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    Anyway, finished the front rim last night and buffed the other pad.




    Did a quick-n-dirty test this morning, dumping some water onto the front and then doing a few hard stops. It's definitely improved a great deal. It's a long way from disc performance, but I can probably live with it. Not an entirely definitive test since there's no ice on the rim, but it looks like we're done with snowfall for the year at this point.

    So, I think I'll be ordering another one of these bikes and setting it up identically to the first one, with the exception that I'll probably go with 700x40 tires rather than 700x35, simply because of the fact that the roads in Manhattan are much worse than in Hoboken in terms of steel plates, exposed cobblestones, potholes with jagged edges, etc.


    Any reason why I should pick something other than my usual Michelin City this time? (Cheng Shin Crucible, Kenda Kwest, etc...)
    Just curious, do you plan to change the brake pads after all?
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  8. #58
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Just curious, do you plan to change the brake pads after all?
    I'm still not 100% decided on that.

    In the rear, I will probably leave the OEM black rubber in place and simply sand it down once I've got the paint fully stripped off of the rear rim. (Schwinn didn't rattle-can these wheels, incidentally. That's some seriously hard catalyzed enamel they put on there which is pretty time-consuming to get off.)

    On the front of this bike, I will probably leave the SwissStop GHP2 pads in place, at least for now.

    On the front of the new bike, I think I will probably pick up a set of Kool-Stop Salmons so that I can do some back-to-back comparison of them against the SwissStops once the rainy weather picks up again.

  9. #59
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    I'm still not 100% decided on that.

    In the rear, I will probably leave the OEM black rubber in place and simply sand it down once I've got the paint fully stripped off of the rear rim. (Schwinn didn't rattle-can these wheels, incidentally. That's some seriously hard catalyzed enamel they put on there which is pretty time-consuming to get off.)

    On the front of this bike, I will probably leave the SwissStop GHP2 pads in place, at least for now.

    On the front of the new bike, I think I will probably pick up a set of Kool-Stop Salmons so that I can do some back-to-back comparison of them against the SwissStops once the rainy weather picks up again.
    I'd definitely be curious to know the results.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    As someone who has owned several bikes with both, I do have to agree that the adjustment of rim brakes is much more "fiddly."

    With mechanical disc brakes, you basically just have one screw to turn, which moves the fixed pad in and out, and then a second adjustment for the moving pad which is similar to any other cable-operated brake. That's it.

    With rim brakes, you have those same adjustments, plus you have to set the spring-centering with two more screws, plus you have to set the alignment of both pads in four axis (height, rotation, toe and camber), all of which are simultaneously locked and released with a single screw. I find this to be much more difficult and time-consuming than just setting the in-out position of a disc pad to compensate for wear.




    I hear a lot of people say things like this, and I'll never understand why.

    Discs are not significantly more expensive than rim brakes. This might have been true at one time, but the Chinese have gotten on-board now. If you add in the fact that disc brakes do not abrade the rim and will tolerate some runout, they can actually wind up being cheaper over time.

    Discs are not universally noisier than rim brakes. While there may be some rim-brake compounds that are significantly quieter than some disc-brake compounds, I can say quite affirmatively that the rim brakes on my current Schwinn (SwissStop green front, OEM black rubber rear) are much louder than the Tektro Novelas on my Giant Revel 1 (the e-bike) under hard braking.

    And far from being more hassle, discs, in my experience, are significantly LESS hassle than rim brakes. I have literally never done anything at all to the discs on my e-bike (which is very heavy and runs at 25-30 MPH) other than occasionally nudge the pads in and replace them once a year or so.

    As for weight, well, I have to admit that I've never weighed a complete disc setup and a complete rim setup. If a difference does exist, then we're literally talking about a few ounces. That might matter to an olympic-level cyclist, but to even mention it in the context of a commuter is ludicrous. I ride steel-framed bikes with fenders and cargo baskets and carry a Kryptonite lock that weighs a couple of pounds. To argue that disc brakes are worse that rim brakes in this context because of their weight makes me thing you're just trying to be deliberately contrarian. I race in Cat-6, not Cat-1.
    Weight is the least of my concerns, but it certainly is a real-life factor. As for price, point me in the direction of some decent discs that sell for @$20/wheel. To be sure, the price has come down (particularly on hubs and disc-ready frames. Wow. This discussion is so 10 years ago), but they still cost more than Vs or really any other kind of brake. To compare your Tektros to the stock linear pull brakes on your Schwinn is hardly a fair comparison, but once the rims are stripped of their paint and you toe the pads in, I bet the Vs will be more quiet.

    I, too, ride steel bikes with fenders, racks, bags, locks, lights, dynamos, etc. All of these things add weight, but I get something in return for it. I don't believe that discs offer any benefits, especially in a commuting/transportation context, to offset the increased price/weight/squawking.

    Can you honestly say you've not had problems with warped rotors? That's really the major factor that put me off the bb7s that were stock on my old SSMTB. The other annoyances were tolerable.

    PS- Nice job stripping the paint off that rim. Looks good; hope it does the trick but you may still need new pads....
    Last edited by surreal; 04-02-14 at 04:23 PM. Reason: typos

  11. #61
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    As someone who has owned several bikes with both, I do have to agree that the adjustment of rim brakes is much more "fiddly."

    With mechanical disc brakes, you basically just have one screw to turn, which moves the fixed pad in and out, and then a second adjustment for the moving pad which is similar to any other cable-operated brake. That's it.

    With rim brakes, you have those same adjustments, plus you have to set the spring-centering with two more screws, plus you have to set the alignment of both pads in four axis (height, rotation, toe and camber), all of which are simultaneously locked and released with a single screw. I find this to be much more difficult and time-consuming than just setting the in-out position of a disc pad to compensate for wear.
    Hold on a second. If we are talking about simply adjusting for pad wear, rim brakes are no more fiddly than discs. To adjust for wear (only) on rim brakes, you simply have to take in the slack on the cable. You shouldn't have to mess with the pad angle, the spring balance, nor adjust the height. Pad wear on a mechanical disc pad may require taking up slack on the cable, moving the moving pad and/or moving the fixed pad.

    If you are setting up a rim brake there are a lot of steps to the set up but there are equally as many steps to setting up a hub mounted disc...up to and including truing the brake track. The rim brake is a little more forgiving in that the wheel doesn't have to be hypertrue to be useable while even a little wobble with a hub mounted disc leads may lead to problems.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    Discs are not significantly more expensive than rim brakes. This might have been true at one time, but the Chinese have gotten on-board now. If you add in the fact that disc brakes do not abrade the rim and will tolerate some runout, they can actually wind up being cheaper over time.

    Discs are not universally noisier than rim brakes. While there may be some rim-brake compounds that are significantly quieter than some disc-brake compounds, I can say quite affirmatively that the rim brakes on my current Schwinn (SwissStop green front, OEM black rubber rear) are much louder than the Tektro Novelas on my Giant Revel 1 (the e-bike) under hard braking.

    And far from being more hassle, discs, in my experience, are significantly LESS hassle than rim brakes. I have literally never done anything at all to the discs on my e-bike (which is very heavy and runs at 25-30 MPH) other than occasionally nudge the pads in and replace them once a year or so.

    As for weight, well, I have to admit that I've never weighed a complete disc setup and a complete rim setup. If a difference does exist, then we're literally talking about a few ounces. That might matter to an olympic-level cyclist, but to even mention it in the context of a commuter is ludicrous. I ride steel-framed bikes with fenders and cargo baskets and carry a Kryptonite lock that weighs a couple of pounds. To argue that disc brakes are worse that rim brakes in this context because of their weight makes me thing you're just trying to be deliberately contrarian. I race in Cat-6, not Cat-1.
    Cheap discs are worse than cheap rim brakes. They perform very poorly and are almost unadjustable. I've had lots of opportunity to work on both and I can usually get even the cheapest of rim brakes to do the job but the same isn't true for cheap discs.

    Rim wear isn't that much of an issue either. I see bikes every Saturday (I'm shop lead at my local co-op) that have 30+ year old wheels on them and seldom see a bike with worn out rims. It happens...I've worn out 3 rims in 30+ years and ~100,000 miles of riding...but it's not as big an issue as many people would have you believe. If you drag your brakes all the time, you'll wear out a rim but if you brake effectively, it's not that much of an issue.

    Finally, hub mounted disc brakes will tolerate some runout at the rim but they won't tolerate any more run out at the braking surface than rim brakes. In fact they will tolerate less because there isn't much gap between the pads and the rotor. A bend in the rotor of less than a millimeter will result in brake rub or even complete stoppage. Neither system is perfect but then neither system is vastly better than the other.
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  12. #62
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    or I could try to straighten the rotor and stuff
    Street riding isn't trail riding;the only time I've ever had a warped rotor was from getting banged around during shipping(and I've had much worse damage from that) or playing bike polo. Straightening a rotor is ridiculously simple. You spin the wheel until you hear the rub,then turn the wheel back a bit,and use an adjustable wrench(not pliers,pliers jaw's have teeth) to tweak it straight. Lather-rinse-repeat.

    OTOH,sometimes it takes serious effort to quiet rim brakes;sometimes it's the fork that's the issue. Specialized actually spec'd their Tricross with mini-V's one year so they could have the time to get the forks right and eliminate the chatter.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    Rim brakes need what? A pad adjustment from time to time as the pads wear and ride up, plus the wheels need to be pretty true.
    More frequent pad adjustment. And replacing pads is more involved. If you're not using cartridges,you have to adjust distance,height,yaw,and toe-in. Discs just require distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    As for green scotch brite pads: they sell those at every grocery store. No need to pester the custodian...
    Yeah,but since you only need one,free is better.

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  13. #63
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    And, to be fair, suck is dependant on context. I understand that rollers are generally considered unsuitable for sustained, high-speed use (eg: a highly technical downhill course) due to their inability to rapidly dissipate heat, but for an urban bikeshare bike which is generally run at low speeds, they're absolutely ideal.
    Ideal in flat NYC,yes. Here in hilly DC,not so much. I had a sphincter-puckering incident once when coming down a hill at speed on a CaBi and a car tried to left hook me. The brakes just slowed me down,they didn't stop me. What would've been an annoyance on any of my bikes wound up being a brush with death. I've had to turn in a good half dozen CaBi's for maintenance because of the brakes. I've even given an supervisor a butt-chewing over the phone about them having to step up their maintenance(it was really bad at one point).

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  14. #64
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Hold on a second. If we are talking about simply adjusting for pad wear, rim brakes are no more fiddly than discs. To adjust for wear (only) on rim brakes, you simply have to take in the slack on the cable.
    Ever see a rim brake pad move out of position? I have. Many times. I've never seen a disc pad move.


    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Pad wear on a mechanical disc pad may require taking up slack on the cable, moving the moving pad and/or moving the fixed pad.
    Depends on the caliper. On BB7's,you only adjust the cable for cable stretch or to fine tune feel. Pad adjustments are only made with the adjuster knobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    If you are setting up a rim brake there are a lot of steps to the set up but there are equally as many steps to setting up a hub mounted disc...up to and including truing the brake track.
    No. Unless you're using cartridge pads,rim bakes have to be set up every time you change the pads. Disc's are set up once when you install the caliper,and never if you buy a bike with discs and it was set up properly by the shop/previous owner. And you shouldn't need to "true the brake track" with a new rotor,unless it was damaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    The rim brake is a little more forgiving in that the wheel doesn't have to be hypertrue to be useable while even a little wobble with a hub mounted disc leads may lead to problems.
    Bull. Hit a pothole and your wheel can be messed up enough that you have to open your rim brake to get the wheel to turn. It would take a serious hit,that would also prolly damage something else as well,to bend a rotor bad enough to foul the caliper and stop the wheel. And bending a rotor back is way easier than truing a wheel.

    We're talking street riding here,not MTBing. All kinds of things break when MTBing. I've even played polo with bikes with disc brakes(3 of them),and have friends who use them,and I've never seen what you described happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Cheap discs are worse than cheap rim brakes. They perform very poorly and are almost unadjustable. I've had lots of opportunity to work on both and I can usually get even the cheapest of rim brakes to do the job but the same isn't true for cheap discs.
    Cheap components suck,whatever they are. Cheap(single pad adjustment) discs are a pain to set up,but function just fine. Come to DC and I'll teach you. I've got cheap Tektros(IOX's) on my Novato;they don't have the feel of BB7's,but they stop just as hard. The rear was esp fun with a full-length cable housing,but I still got it set up right.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Finally, hub mounted disc brakes will tolerate some runout at the rim but they won't tolerate any more run out at the braking surface than rim brakes. In fact they will tolerate less because there isn't much gap between the pads and the rotor. A bend in the rotor of less than a millimeter will result in brake rub or even complete stoppage. Neither system is perfect but then neither system is vastly better than the other.
    Again,bunk,see above. Maybe you get nothing but dirt-eaters at your clinic,but I've never seen the issues on street bikes,or polo bikes,that you claim.

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  15. #65
    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Full disclosure: I've only run discs on trail bikes b/c, well, that's pretty much what they were designed for. As of right now, I don't have any bikes with discs.

    Rim brake pads are quick and easy to adjust or set up, if you've done it a million times and you're good a it. Disc brakes are probably easier to set up if we're just talking pad adjustment, but I've found disc brakes to be a PITA overall. Yes, they work. Ppl who really love discs can easily live with the quirks that irk me. I'm not denying that. But discs provide a trade-off of benefits versus annoyances on the trail. Discs offer no real benefit on the street, at least not how I ride. I could see how they might be helpful for someone touring fully loaded in the mountains, where other brake systems would overheat and fade. But for riding to work, even in nasty weather, they can't do anything that my v-brakes can't.

    I managed to straighten my rotors out when they warped, but it seemed that they'd warp again in short order. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but I've reverted to Vs on my mtn bikes and I'm happy. My street bikes are equipped with cantis, Us, Vs, dual-pivot calipers, coasters, and drums (not all on the same bike, obviously). About the only system I don't like is the disc, but I've got a disc front/fixed rear project in the works. I'm hoping the disc won't frustrate me too often.

    PS- it really isn't sufficient to just take up the slack when adjusting for wear on a v-brake. For googleable reasons that I cannot articulately explain, v-brake pads travel upwards on the braking surface as they wear. So, you do have to kinda play with the pad adjustment a wee bit wile adjusting for wear.
    Last edited by surreal; 04-02-14 at 07:10 PM. Reason: post-script

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    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Ever see a rim brake pad move out of position? I have. Many times. I've never seen a disc pad move.
    That is a set up problem, not a wear problem. Rim brake pads won't move out of position if they are properly tightened at the time of install. And, yes, I have seen improperly installed hub mounted disc pads move. If they move, the bike won't.


    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Depends on the caliper. On BB7's,you only adjust the cable for cable stretch or to fine tune feel. Pad adjustments are only made with the adjuster knobs.
    Yes, it depends on the caliper. Not all disc brakes are BB7s.

    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    No. Unless you're using cartridge pads,rim bakes have to be set up every time you change the pads. Disc's are set up once when you install the caliper,and never if you buy a bike with discs and it was set up properly by the shop/previous owner. And you shouldn't need to "true the brake track" with a new rotor,unless it was damaged.
    Again, I was not talking about a new install of pads but only addressing pad wear. Even with new pads, the set up is minimal.

    And I have yet to install a new rotor that doesn't need to be trued. So far, that about 2 dozen rotors.

    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Bull. Hit a pothole and your wheel can be messed up enough that you have to open your rim brake to get the wheel to turn. It would take a serious hit,that would also prolly damage something else as well,to bend a rotor bad enough to foul the caliper and stop the wheel. And bending a rotor back is way easier than truing a wheel.
    I have opened rim brakes wide enough to allow for a broken spoke. That's forgiveness.

    I've also seen sticks jammed in disc rotors that almost folded the rotor in half and made the bike basically unrideable. It put a kink in the rotor that would take a hammer and flat surface to straighten out. It wasn't something that could be easily straightened with most multitools.

    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    We're talking street riding here,not MTBing. All kinds of things break when MTBing. I've even played polo with bikes with disc brakes(3 of them),and have friends who use them,and I've never seen what you described happen.
    Street riding isn't necessarily all that friendly. Disc rotors get bent in bike racks or when someone jams one bike into another. Bike wheels can get bent too. Like I said, neither system is perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Again,bunk,see above. Maybe you get nothing but dirt-eaters at your clinic,but I've never seen the issues on street bikes,or polo bikes,that you claim.
    Are you really trying to say that disc rotors never get bent? Or that there is more clearance in the caliper than I see? If rotors never get bent, why are there tools for truing them? Or even the idea that they need to be trued? Take a look again. There isn't any room in the caliper and the disc rotor has to be hyperstraight...straighter than any wheel with a rim brake has to be. I'm not talking about the wheel but the rotor itself.
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    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post

    PS- it really isn't sufficient to just take up the slack when adjusting for wear on a v-brake. For googleable reasons that I cannot articulately explain, v-brake pads travel upwards on the braking surface as they wear. So, you do have to kinda play with the pad adjustment a wee bit wile adjusting for wear.
    I agree with most everything you have to say except this. If the pads of a linear brake are very worn...like almost needing replacement...you may have to adjust the pads a little but you don't really need to reposition the pads for normal wear. Simply taking up the cable slack will suffice.
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    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    I agree with most everything you have to say except this. If the pads of a linear brake are very worn...like almost needing replacement...you may have to adjust the pads a little but you don't really need to reposition the pads for normal wear. Simply taking up the cable slack will suffice.
    You might be right. I may have been needlessly complicating the process. I'll try that next time.

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    Aaah, the joys of urban bicycle maintenance:



    After getting the rear rim sanded down and the pads clean, I took it back down to the street as I remembered that there's one large area which tends to hold an inch or two of water after a good rain like we had a few days ago, and lo and behold, it was still flooded.

    Took the bike down into that region and did some hard braking tests. Performance is definitely improved. It's still a far cry from perfect consistency, and I was unable to lock the front wheel no matter how hard I tried even with the wheel submerged in two inches of water but it's better than it was. There's also an interesting new behavior which I'd not seen before. When I get on the front brake really hard (this is the one with the SwissStop green pads) there's a severe juddering. It's not caused me to lose control, but it's definitely odd...

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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    To compare your Tektros to the stock linear pull brakes on your Schwinn is hardly a fair comparison, but once the rims are stripped of their paint and you toe the pads in, I bet the Vs will be more quiet.

    Having completed the work, I can say affirmatively that these brakes still squeal a lot more than the discs on my e-bike.


    I'm not sure why you seem to think that all disc brakes are loud, or why the loudness of a brake system is more important than how well it performs.








    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    I don't believe that discs offer any benefits, especially in a commuting/transportation context, to offset the increased price/weight/squawking.

    And you're entitled to your own opinion, even if it's wrong.








    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    Can you honestly say you've not had problems with warped rotors?

    Of course I've never had problems with warped rotors. I use bicycles for everyday commuting, not aggressive, high-speed downhill racing.






    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    PS- Nice job stripping the paint off that rim. Looks good; hope it does the trick but you may still need new pads....

    Thanks. All of the pads sanded down to a nice-looking surface without losing too much thickness, and in the front, the rims have already started to take on a greenish tint where there's obviously some transfer of material taking place from pad-to-rim.


    I do still intend to pick up some Salmons, though I'll probably install them on the other bike. Will likely be picking up another Wayfarer / Admiral shortly.

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    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Very practical bike man, and how well are your brake pads toed in? Depending that could account for the "juddering" I also seem to recall something about hand sanding rims and getting uneven braking surfaces that caused things like that, although given the wear and grit etc I've seen on lots of perfectly functioning rims for braking purposes that does seem kinda fishy. Oh and what is that hanging off your rack in the pic?

    Oh and Surreal, I have to disagree. Discs offer a great advantage for commuting IMO, weights not exactly a huge issue and even cheap discs can eventually be dialed in to near silence. Ideally I'll be converting a frameset to use some soon as I do now often commute on wet roads, and I rather do fancy the idea of being able to use my waterproof brake a lot without having to worry about overheating (My main wet ride commuter is coaster brake for the same stopping principles).
    Last edited by RaleighSport; 04-03-14 at 07:50 AM.
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    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    If you are setting up a rim brake there are a lot of steps to the set up but there are equally as many steps to setting up a hub mounted disc.

    Is it?


    Steps required after changing pads in a disc system:


    1: Turn inner adjuster until pad just brushes against disc.


    2: Turn outer adjuster until pad just brushes against disc.








    Steps required after changing pads in a rim system:


    1: Place shim between trailing edge of left pad and rim


    2: Squeeze brake lever with one hand.


    3: Use second hand to orient pad in height, yaw and roll.


    4: Use third hand to tighten nut, the act of which causes roll orientation of pad to change.


    5: Use vise-grips to hold pad in roll orientation with fourth hand, and re-tighten nut.


    6: Place shim between trailing edge of right pad and rim


    7: Squeeze brake lever with one hand.


    8: Remembering lesson learned in step 5, use the vise-grips first this time.


    9: Tighten right nut.


    10: Adjust cable.


    11: Adjust spring tension on both sides, going back and forth several times.


    12: Realize that the rim is too far out of true for your liking.


    13: Spend an hour truing the rim.


    14: Repeat steps 10-11.

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    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    I'm not sure why you seem to think that all disc brakes are loud, or why the loudness of a brake system is more important than how well it performs. ...
    I don't think noise is "more important" than performance; I think loud brakes are more annoying than quiet ones. As far as performance goes, linear pull brakes stop my bike reliably within a few seconds and a few feet on pavement. I couldn't/wouldn't expect better performance than that. I don't know tat all discs are loud, but I've heard a good many loud one, and I find it far easier to silence noisy rim brakes than I do noisy discs.

    (My drums take a few more feet, but they're quiet and extremely predictable unless they're pretty hot... which never happens on my commute.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    And you're entitled to your own opinion, even if it's wrong. ...
    Fair enough; that's pretty much universal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    Of course I've never had problems with warped rotors. I use bicycles for everyday commuting, not aggressive, high-speed downhill racing...
    Yeah, my warping issues occurred on fairly tame but sometimes long xc-style rides. Modern disc brakes were designed for offroad applications, but they look/seem cool, so now ppl are putting them on their road bikes.


    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Discs offer a great advantage for commuting IMO, weights not exactly a huge issue and even cheap discs can eventually be dialed in to near silence. ...
    What's the advantage over rim brakes for commuting? I see some advantages over a c/b for some commutes, but disc brakes are not really weatherproof anyway.

  24. #74
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    What's the advantage over rim brakes for commuting? I see some advantages over a c/b for some commutes, but disc brakes are not really weatherproof anyway.
    It is a lot more so weatherproof than a rim brake though, that's the major advantage IMO, there's some other bonuses too like often more tire clearance.

    I see you mention drum brakes, I've often tinkered with the idea of running a front one for the same reasoning as disc brakes. I also see you use them for commuting, I'm trying to restrain myself these days so I'm ignoring the other conversation as best I can So would you mind telling me your thoughts and experiences with them as a commuter?
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    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Very practical bike man, and how well are your brake pads toed in?
    I placed a postcard, folded in half, between the rim and the "trailing" edge of the pad (the end nearest the rear of the bike), then clamped down on the lever and tightened the nut. Had to repeat the process a few times to get everything lined up happily, but I believe that they are set up correctly. I base that alignment on this Shimano document: http://bike.shimano.com.sg/media/tec...9830746237.pdf




    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Depending that could account for the "juddering" I also seem to recall something about hand sanding rims and getting uneven braking surfaces that caused things like that, although given the wear and grit etc I've seen on lots of perfectly functioning rims for braking purposes that does seem kinda fishy.
    Well, I wet-sanded the rims by hand with 220 grit paper, taking about an hour to do each side of each rim. I'm quite certain that I didn't remove more than a few mils of aluminum beyond the paint itself. I can pretty much guarantee that the warpage of the rim (which isn't bad at all) exceeds the unevenness of the surface resulting from the sanding process by several orders of magnitude.




    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Oh and what is that hanging off your rack in the pic?
    A collapsible wire basket. Wald # 582 to be precise: 582 Rear Folding Basket - Waldsports

    It fit perfectly onto the rack which came with the bike. Exactly the right size to hold one paper grocery bag. I have these on all my bikes.

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