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  1. #76
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Oh, it's just your rims then causing the juddering.. have you tried truing up your wheels?
    “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”


    ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Emerson in His Journals

  2. #77
    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    It is a lot more so weatherproof than a rim brake though, that's the major advantage IMO, there's some other bonuses too like often more tire clearance.

    I see you mention drum brakes, I've often tinkered with the idea of running a front one for the same reasoning as disc brakes. I also see you use them for commuting, I'm trying to restrain myself these days so I'm ignoring the other conversation as best I can So would you mind telling me your thoughts and experiences with them as a commuter?
    Re: rim brakes/the weather-- When I'm riding in the rain, or on a light dusting of snow, and I squeeze the lever, the bike stops. It may or may not take a little extra time/space; I've never measured, but it seems to take a smidge longer in adverse weather, but I've never run into anything due to rim brake failure or poor rim brake performance in bad weather(Had a few close calls on a chrome-rimmed rod=brake roadster; those brakes are terrible.) The closest calls I've had (rod brakes aside) involved skidding/loss of traction, which is about the tires and wouldn't be improved with a disc.

    Re: drums. I love'm, but they're not for everyone. They are very heavy, they tend to be weak until broken in, they're still not mind-blowing even after they're broken in, and a lot of ppl report problems with performance/noise. I've not noticed these problems, and I suspect that noisy/weird drum brakes are being run with long-pull brake levers. I've run Sturmey drums with drop levers, old style "touring" levers for upright bars, bmx levers, and mtb levers from the canti/u-brake era of mtb'n without any problems. A few squeaks on the first ride seems normal; my one front will squeak on the first real pull after I've neglected to ride the thing for a few months.

    I commute a lot of a cruiser with a drum/generator front and a c/b rear. It's a weatherproof system, and I love that the front hub holds the wheel together, provides power for my lights, and functions as a front brake. That being said, the thing doesn't stop with the authority of a bike equipped with Vs or discs. TBF, the bike weighs well over 50lbs, and it stops reliably and predictably. That's the best I can say for the drum brakes: once theyre dialed in, they behave predictably and reliably, apparently forever. Pads(shoes? whatever the right term is) are long-wearing. Rain/snow/slime has no effect. If weight and tech are not priorities, I can definitely recommend the Sturmey drums. Haven't tried other drums long-term, so I can't judge those.

    In terms of tire clearance/wheelsize conversions/frame compatibility, drums rule. They can be run on most frames/forks, and brake reach is obviously not a problem, so putting off-size wheels in a frame is no problem, at least from a braking standpoint. (Most radical change I made was a basic 27" to 700c", but in theory....they open up a lot of possibilities to the frankenbuilder.)

    My wife has drum f/r on her 3speed mixte; I love borrowing that thing. I have a klunker/bmx cruiser type of frankenbike that I ride trails on and sometimes ride to work; drum f/ ss drum rear. So much fun on trails, in a masochistic way, but if I ride it hard enough with enough braking to heat up the hubs, the fade is quite noticeable. I could see this being a problem in a very hilly area for JRA/commutes, but my part of NJ is flat, so I don't have fade problems with drums during a commute situation.

  3. #78
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Oh, it's just your rims then causing the juddering.. have you tried truing up your wheels?
    Sorry if I gave the impression that the wheels are significantly out of true, they are not. I have not measured the total runout, however it is extremely small.

    I wouldn't say that it's "just the rims," it's clearly the product of the interaction between the rims, the pads, and the admittedly very cheap and slightly sloppy brake calipers. As an experiment, I've ordered a Tektro 857Al caliper to install in the front and see if that makes a significant difference. At $12, it's a cheap test.

  4. #79
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Grasp the concept of pad toe in?

  5. #80
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    Grasp the concept of pad toe in?
    Presupposing that that was directed at me, see post # 75 in this thread.

    If you feel I'm doing it wrong, I'd appreciate more specific advice.

  6. #81
    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Ideal in flat NYC,yes. Here in hilly DC,not so much. I had a sphincter-puckering incident once when coming down a hill at speed on a CaBi and a car tried to left hook me. The brakes just slowed me down,they didn't stop me. What would've been an annoyance on any of my bikes wound up being a brush with death. I've had to turn in a good half dozen CaBi's for maintenance because of the brakes. I've even given an supervisor a butt-chewing over the phone about them having to step up their maintenance(it was really bad at one point).
    I had a roller brake on the rear wheel of my winter bike for awhile. Though adjustment is simple, it's not always "easy" if that makes any sense. There is only one adjustment and it's equivalent to a barrel adjuster on a rim brake. In my experience you want it adjusted so that virtually any amount of pull from the brake levers will start to engage the brakes. The problem with roller brakes on a grease-packed IGH is that it can be hard to tell exactly where that point is.

    Something that seems helpful with roller brakes is to use compressionless housing designed for mechanical discs.

    I've found some variance among the braking performance found on our bike share bikes and I tend to blame the mechanics for that rather than the brakes. I think properly sized and adjusted they work fine. Again though, I just had one on the back of my bike wheel of my bike and that's the critical one when it comes to brakes.
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

  7. #82
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    I fit KS eagle claw brake pads*, the plow tip faces back tends to angle the pad, just a bit ..

    ... * mine went on plain post cantilevers , ... as said earlier my V brakes are German and Hydraulic.

    shop wrenching I, Pacific coast, 3 timezones to the west, seem to make V brakes not squeal ..

    remote hands on is not available to me ..

    they are working on that for surgeries, battle field of course , as that is what we do , battles.


    Perhaps once you get things dirty a little and the skin of the new pads is worn thru it will stop squealing .

  8. #83
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    I fit KS eagle claw brake pads*, the plow tip faces back tends to angle the pad, just a bit ..

    ... * mine went on plain post cantilevers , ... as said earlier my V brakes are German and Hydraulic.

    shop wrenching I, Pacific coast, 3 timezones to the west, seem to make V brakes not squeal ..

    remote hands on is not available to me ..

    they are working on that for surgeries, battle field of course , as that is what we do , battles.


    Perhaps once you get things dirty a little and the skin of the new pads is worn thru it will stop squealing .

    I just have to ask, and please don't take offense to this, but are you on drugs? As in, are you literally high right now?

  9. #84
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Caffeine.. & Glaucoma needs control.. Just another old man, a veteran, who served in wars started by "adults"..

    you missed the conscription after high-school era.. Obviously ..

    Home :: Veterans for Peace

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  10. #85
    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
    I just have to ask, and please don't take offense to this, but are you on drugs? As in, are you literally high right now?
    I get too wordy. Fietsbob clearly has a different posting style than myself but I never attributed it to drugs (his or mine).
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

  11. #86
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    Discs offer no real benefit on the street, at least not how I ride. I could see how they might be helpful for someone touring fully loaded in the mountains, where other brake systems would overheat and fade. But for riding to work, even in nasty weather, they can't do anything that my v-brakes can't.
    I switched to discs after my first winter commuting. My V brakes packed with snow and I wound up glancing off a car. All my bad weather bikes have since had discs.

    C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport/Qualifier,Brompton S6L,Dahon Speed Pro TT

  12. #87
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    And I have yet to install a new rotor that doesn't need to be trued. So far, that about 2 dozen rotors.
    I think I've installed one rotor that wasn't straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Are you really trying to say that disc rotors never get bent?
    No,I'm saying it's never been the issue for me that you make it out to be. I've never had a rotor get knocked out of true from anything other than shipping or polo. Ever. Look at my sig,most of my fleet has discs. Only thing I've ever had damaged at a rack was a brake cable.

    Apparently,being the Patron Saint of Disc Brakes has actually given me supernatural powers,because with all the disc-equipped bikes I've owned,built,and worked on,I haven't had a single major issue.

    C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport/Qualifier,Brompton S6L,Dahon Speed Pro TT

  13. #88
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    Modern disc brakes were designed for offroad applications, but they look/seem cool, so now ppl are putting them on their road bikes.
    I'm pretty sure they're showing up on road bikes because of high-speed descents in the rain. Which mere mortals prolly needn't be concerned with,but TdF riders do.

    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    What's the advantage over rim brakes for commuting? I see some advantages over a c/b for some commutes, but disc brakes are not really weatherproof anyway.
    As I said,I switched to discs after a bad experience with V's in the snow. My old commute was very hilly,and I was essential personnel(military),so I needed to be at work. I've ridden in through blizzards because someone had to man the shop and my co-workers were all out in the burbs. Also,I wouldn't want anything but discs on my cargo bike.

    C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport/Qualifier,Brompton S6L,Dahon Speed Pro TT

  14. #89
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjspiel View Post
    I've found some variance among the braking performance found on our bike share bikes and I tend to blame the mechanics for that rather than the brakes.
    Things have gotten better with our share bikes,so now I mostly blame the users. Lots of steep hills,lots of noob riders. Rollers don't like to be dragged down hills.

    I really wished they'd gone with SA for drum brakes and a 5spd hub. The 3spds don't really cut it around here. On my 24lbs Hooligan,it's ok,on a 45lbs share bike,not so much.

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  15. #90
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Coming this spring, from the creators of Shіtibike and Shіtibike Resurrection, a riveting tale of cheapness beyond comprehension. It's...


    Shіtibike II: The Shіtening!









    It followed me home.









    Not quite identical twins, but close. On the left is the one I've had for about 6 months, which is private-labeled as "Admiral" and sold by WalMart. On the right is the new acquisition, branded as "Wayfarer" and sold by K-Mart. Same bike, different colors, and the K-mart one didn't come with a bell. Also, I can't quite tell whether the wheels on the black one are painted. They are aluminum-ish in color, but slightly too uniform- I'll start hitting 'em with the sandpaper after I pull the rubber off today.


    Handlebars, grips, tires, tubes, rim tape, basket, and all the other little essentials are on order.

  16. #91
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    So we had a nice, properly rainy afternoon today- excellent opportunity to test braking performance. Rode the red bike home through a moderate rain and significant puddles, wearing the SwissStop greens on the front and the OEM blacks on the rear with my freshly sanded rims.

    I won't claim that it's up to par with my disc-equipped bikes, or even with a roller-equipped CitiBike, but it's a definite improvement. We've gone from "these brakes literally don't work at all" to "I had to really squeeze hard, but I was able to lock up the wheels (bearing in mind that this bike has Michelin City tires on it, which are notoriously awesome in the wet.)" So I can live with that. Still curious to see how the Salmons stack up- they should be here in a few days (had to mail order as no local shop I called had the pure salmons in cartridge form, only thinlines in black/salmon compound.)


    Shifting gears (figuratively) to the black bike... I spent some time working on the front rim with the 220 grit, and I'm fairly certain that despite the cosmetic appearance, these rims are unpainted. With the white rims that came on the red bike, I was obviously pulling lots of paint off immediately and clouding up the water bowl with every dip of the paper. Yet with these I'm just getting a little metallic dust. Oddly, I haven't made much of a dent in the appearance of the metal aside from putting a few thin polished bands into the edges, but there's definitely no paint coming off that I can tell.



    I wonder why the K-mart bikes got raw rims, while the WalMart units are painted... Seems like an odd choice on Schwinn / Pacific Cycles' part.

    Also, protip for you Waltonites: the 1969 Schwinn Collegiate that this bike is a copy of didn't have painted rims:



    (Though I'm glad that the new version doesn't have side-pull calipers and a suicide-shifter.)




    The rims ain't too bad in terms of runout. A little tweaking will be needed, but as-delivered, total runout is about 0.051"-0.065" across all four braking surfaces.







    In the process of disassembling and cleaning all of the major bearings at present. I swear, I think they deliberately pack metal shavings and carbide dust into these things at the time of assembly. And for some reason, my 13mm cone wrench seems to have completely vanished off the face of the earth.






    Also, just because it was a really nice weekend, a gratuitous shot of Springtime in the Sixth Borough:

    Last edited by Joe Perez; 04-07-14 at 05:53 PM.

  17. #92
    Senior Member Rudz's Avatar
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    Glad it worked out for you. I got me some salmon pads enroute as well
    Giant Rapid 3- COMMUTERIZED *IBERA*Nashbar*Tiagra*105*Velocity*Selle SMP*Gatorskin
    Every commute is a race. I do victory laps in my driveway

  18. #93
    Freewheelin' Joe Perez's Avatar
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    Aaah, the wonderful aroma of clean, shiny balls packed in fresh lube.





    And the dilemma of the urban cyclist: the missus vs. the mess.



    (I do so miss having a well-appointed garage to work in...)
    Last edited by Joe Perez; 04-07-14 at 08:53 PM.

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