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  1. #1
    Senior Member jrickards's Avatar
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    New bike lanes planned in my city

    As far as I am concerned, this is big news, new curb-separated bike lanes will be added to the Second Avenue reconstruction plan.

    Where my mouse-pointer is in the image below is the location of Costco, Chapters (bookstore), Home Depot, Lowes, Petsmart, Sears, Winners, Best Buy, Homesense, Montana's, Milestones, Cineplex, Staples and many other big box stores. For me, because I like to take my bike to shop at Costco (but not toilet paper or paper towel, I'd need a trailer at least), this will make the trip much nicer as the blue section on the map is currently very rough, lots of pot holes, narrow and without paved shoulders.

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  2. #2
    Let's Ride! RidingMatthew's Avatar
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    that sounds nice...
    do you think curb separated lanes are better for biking or do you think bikes should be in the lanes with cars and people be careful?
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    Hopefully, they'll do a decent job with the design and execution, and there won't be too many issues with driveway cross traffic.

    BTW- I also shop Costco by bike, and Paper towels are no problem for my 5 mile ride home. Take a length of rope to the store. Punch out the plastic at the ends of a roll core about 2/3 of the way down. Slip the rope through, make a loop and wear the paper towels like a messenger bag. It might take some experimentation for you to find the arrangement that keeps them in the right place on your back, so you might try it at home next time you have a new package.

    IME- the hardest thing to get home is a case of oranges or grapefruit. I've done it but savings isn't worth the effort. For big things or large loads I do it the Mexican way. I ride the bike to the store, buy a ton of crap, and hire a cab to go home. I've also made a friend of one driver. He meets me, and we fill his trunk. I then ride home. He then goes about his routine until he has a fare which brings him near my house, then makes a side trip and drops the stuff. I pay him a discounted fare for the service, and we both come out winners.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member jrickards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Hopefully, they'll do a decent job with the design and execution, and there won't be too many issues with driveway cross traffic.

    BTW- I also shop Costco by bike, and Paper towels are no problem for my 5 mile ride home. Take a length of rope to the store. Punch out the plastic at the ends of a roll core about 2/3 of the way down. Slip the rope through, make a loop and wear the paper towels like a messenger bag. It might take some experimentation for you to find the arrangement that keeps them in the right place on your back, so you might try it at home next time you have a new package.

    IME- the hardest thing to get home is a case of oranges or grapefruit. I've done it but savings isn't worth the effort. For big things or large loads I do it the Mexican way. I ride the bike to the store, buy a ton of crap, and hire a cab to go home. I've also made a friend of one driver. He meets me, and we fill his trunk. I then ride home. He then goes about his routine until he has a fare which brings him near my house, then makes a side trip and drops the stuff. I pay him a discounted fare for the service, and we both come out winners.
    When I read this, I thought, what? carry it on your sombrero?

    Cool idea with the taxi though. However, I'll just leave the large loads for another time when I need to take the Jeep.
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    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
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    They rarely clean the segregated bike lane I use, forcing me to choose between riding on glass, sand, gravel, sticks, etc., or riding on the clean road. Hopefully your city will include cleaning in the budget.

  6. #6
    Senior Member jrickards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    They rarely clean the segregated bike lane I use, forcing me to choose between riding on glass, sand, gravel, sticks, etc., or riding on the clean road. Hopefully your city will include cleaning in the budget.
    Thanks, excellent advice, we don't have any other curb-separated bike lanes in town so this will be a first.
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    Senior Member CrankyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    They rarely clean the segregated bike lane I use, forcing me to choose between riding on glass, sand, gravel, sticks, etc., or riding on the clean road. Hopefully your city will include cleaning in the budget.
    I assume it's only separated by bollards or something similar? Curbs or parked cars do a better job of keeping this stuff from getting on there in the first place.

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    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
    I assume it's only separated by bollards or something similar? Curbs or parked cars do a better job of keeping this stuff from getting on there in the first place.
    No parking allowed. The bike lane is separated (only in areas) by plastic stick things about 2 feet high. Keeps the cars out of the bike lane, but not much else. The rest is segregated by paint and/or grassy medians...kind of a hodgepodge solution due to lack of available space. Actually looks clean on Google Maps, but right now (and most of the time) is a mess. http://goo.gl/maps/tLGjW

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    Senior Member CrankyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    No parking allowed. The bike lane is separated (only in areas) by plastic stick things about 2 feet high.
    I can picture the mess. This is really just a bike lane with bollards (those 2' high things), very different from a segregated track for the very reason you've pointed out. We've got a bunch of painted lanes and painted with bollards and they're mostly unusable right now until they're swept, when they'll be good for a month or two until they need to be swept again but won't be for another month or so. Something physical is needed between the driving lanes and the cycle track to keep debris off.

  10. #10
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    curb separated bike lane? does allow for the ability to make a left turn? and how does it prevent right hook? I would think that being separated would setup a situation where a driver wouldn't "see" a cyclist as they turned right at an intersection...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Hopefully, they'll do a decent job with the design and execution, and there won't be too many issues with driveway cross traffic.

    BTW- I also shop Costco by bike, and Paper towels are no problem for my 5 mile ride home. Take a length of rope to the store. Punch out the plastic at the ends of a roll core about 2/3 of the way down. Slip the rope through, make a loop and wear the paper towels like a messenger bag. It might take some experimentation for you to find the arrangement that keeps them in the right place on your back, so you might try it at home next time you have a new package.

    IME- the hardest thing to get home is a case of oranges or grapefruit. I've done it but savings isn't worth the effort. For big things or large loads I do it the Mexican way. I ride the bike to the store, buy a ton of crap, and hire a cab to go home. I've also made a friend of one driver. He meets me, and we fill his trunk. I then ride home. He then goes about his routine until he has a fare which brings him near my house, then makes a side trip and drops the stuff. I pay him a discounted fare for the service, and we both come out winners.
    Every couple weeks I haul a case of wine and a few other things 8 miles home from trader joes on my bike trailer. It's a great opportunity to build touring legs.

    Some people talk about loading their bike down before a tour to condition themselves. I can never work up the gumption to carry a bunch of weight for its own sake. It feels weird and contrived. But if I can sit down to a nice glass of wine (or two) afterwards, it's all worth it.

    (taking a car is not an option, which also helps)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
    Every couple weeks I haul a case of wine and a few other things 8 miles home from trader joes on my bike trailer. It's a great opportunity to build touring legs.

    Some people talk about loading their bike down before a tour to condition themselves. I can never work up the gumption to carry a bunch of weight for its own sake. It feels weird and contrived. But if I can sit down to a nice glass of wine (or two) afterwards, it's all worth it.

    (taking a car is not an option, which also helps)
    TJ is 3 miles from my home, and sees a decent chunk of my food budget. Unfortunately NYS law restricts wine selling to only one store within the state, and the TJ opted to sell wine in another larger store in downtown NYC. I don't blame them, that's where the $$$$ are.

    I keep toying with the idea of a trailer, but so far have managed without, living as Europeans do, with small purchases daily, rather than the type of big shopping that people here in the USA do.

    One fringe benefit of going car less, was to adopt that pattern of food shopping on my way home. That means fresher food, bought daily, with menus planned around what's good.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    TJ is 3 miles from my home, and sees a decent chunk of my food budget. Unfortunately NYS law restricts wine selling to only one store within the state, and the TJ opted to sell wine in another larger store in downtown NYC. I don't blame them, that's where the $$$$ are.

    I keep toying with the idea of a trailer, but so far have managed without, living as Europeans do, with small purchases daily, rather than the type of big shopping that people here in the USA do.

    One fringe benefit of going car less, was to adopt that pattern of food shopping on my way home. That means fresher food, bought daily, with menus planned around what's good.
    Agree. I certainly don't need to do it like I do. It does help me manage time though. I like this certain wine. By getting a bunch, I go less often. Similarly, I shop for groceries once per week with my trailer. I wouldn't need to go that often, but I do want some fresh produce.

    But smaller trips is certainly a reasonable alternative, especially if it's all close by. A few years ago I was careless and bikeless. I did my shopping almost every day at the walmart 1/2 mile up the road. I like going to the farmers mkt better though. That requires the bicycle since it's a few miles from home.

  14. #14
    Senior Member CrankyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by e0richt View Post
    curb separated bike lane? does allow for the ability to make a left turn? and how does it prevent right hook? I would think that being separated would setup a situation where a driver wouldn't "see" a cyclist as they turned right at an intersection...
    If designed properly the signal timings shouldn't allow either of those. There are two options; 1) when the cycle track has green then no turns allowed, or 2) setup an all-go where all bicycles and pedestrians have green to go in any direction while motor vehicles are all given red.

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    Senior Member SlimAgainSoon's Avatar
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    Good for your city.

    You might want to reconsider, though, the "separate" part.

    I'm a fan of bike lanes, and I work with my local governments to have bike lanes included on new roads and redesigned roads.

    I've argued against segregated lanes, though.

    I don't like being stuck in the bike lane. Sometimes, I want to come out.

    Also, most bike-car accidents happen at intersections (drivers turning right and clipping cyclists is the most common). Segregated lanes do nothing to address that problem — I think it makes it worse.

    So, why segregate?

    Something to consider.

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    I would've been riding and commuting a lot more sooner with segregated bike lanes. As a choice, years ago. Rather than a necessity by being without a car.

    It would also make planning routes a whole,lot easier if I didn't need to be a bit roundabout to stay on less trafficked roads.

    maybe it's not a big deal to you experienced folk, but segregated lanes would make things a whole lot more accessible for prospective cyclists.

  17. #17
    Senior Member CrankyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullalto View Post
    maybe it's not a big deal to you experienced folk, but segregated lanes would make things a whole lot more accessible for prospective cyclists.
    Yep. There's a reason why, when segregated lanes/tracks/paths go in, ridership increases. The Netherlands the ultimate example.

  18. #18
    Senior Member CrankyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimAgainSoon View Post
    You might want to reconsider, though, the "separate" part.

    I'm a fan of bike lanes, and I work with my local governments to have bike lanes included on new roads and redesigned roads.

    I've argued against segregated lanes, though.
    Here's a good article on why you may want to re think that.

    Do We Really Want Bike Lanes? | streets.mn

  19. #19
    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimAgainSoon View Post
    Good for your city.

    You might want to reconsider, though, the "separate" part.

    I'm a fan of bike lanes, and I work with my local governments to have bike lanes included on new roads and redesigned roads.

    I've argued against segregated lanes, though.

    I don't like being stuck in the bike lane. Sometimes, I want to come out.

    Also, most bike-car accidents happen at intersections (drivers turning right and clipping cyclists is the most common). Segregated lanes do nothing to address that problem — I think it makes it worse.

    So, why segregate?

    Something to consider.
    A well done segregated bike lane is far better than one that's just paint but intersections are key, - I agree with that.
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    They rarely clean the segregated bike lane I use, forcing me to choose between riding on glass, sand, gravel, sticks, etc., or riding on the clean road. Hopefully your city will include cleaning in the budget.
    When I saw Second Avenue on the pop-up, I thought this thread was about NYC. But at least here in NYC, they clean the lane on First and Second Ave. at least once a week, maybe twice. I come up behind the sweeper frequently.

  21. #21
    Senior Member jputnam's Avatar
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    Curb-segregated paths can be safe if the intersections are infrequent and dealt with properly. But data from Lusk et al in the American Journal of Public Health show cycletracks with urban-street-grid intersection densities are an order of magnitude more hazardous than those with low intersection density, more dangerous than streets without sidepaths.

    Points to consider:

    * Separate signal phases for cyclists, with no right on red for motorists, are the only real way to prevent right-hook crashes if bikes share intersections with motorists. Right-hooks remain a common fatal accident in Copenhagen, they're not something that segregation alone reduces.

    * Adequate passing width within the path -- when you have a curb-segregated sidepath, a faster cyclist can't simply merge across a stripe of paint to pass a slower cyclist. A sidepath narrower than eight feet will tend to be slowed to the lowest rider speed where passing isn't possible. There's nothing wrong with riding 6-8mph, but it's not going to appeal to many stronger cyclists. (See video of Dutch and Danish cycletracks in urban areas -- very slow compared to typical U.S. cycling speeds.)

    * Maintenance and cleaning -- a few cities own street sweepers narrow enough to clean segregated sidepaths, but most don't. Does your city have a street sweeper narrow enough for the proposed sidepaths? How frequently will they be cleaned? Keep in mind that debris on a roadway that gets quickly ground down by cars can linger for weeks or months on a bike-only path. Personally, my commuter bike includes a dustpan and whisk broom, because otherwise a single broken bottle can cause repeated flats for weeks.

    * Access out of sidepath -- how do cyclists access destinations on the other side of the street? How do cyclists leave the sidepath mid-block? How do cyclists enter the sidepath mid-block?

    * Transit stops -- in Copenhagen, they initially ran cycletracks behind bus stops with no real bike/ped segregation, and saw more than 1700% increase in bike/ped accidents at bus stops.

    * Transition when segregated path ends -- how does the facility merge cyclists back into traffic? Is there any reminder to motorists to expect bikes back in the street?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jputnam/collections/72157604835074312/

  22. #22
    Senior Member jputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    They rarely clean the segregated bike lane I use, forcing me to choose between riding on glass, sand, gravel, sticks, etc., or riding on the clean road. Hopefully your city will include cleaning in the budget.
    That's why my commute gear includes a dustpan. With a fully-separated path, one broken beer bottle can cause flats for weeks, no car tires to grind down the glass.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jputnam/collections/72157604835074312/

  23. #23
    Daily Rider Robert C's Avatar
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    I was in one of those "separated bike lanes" last night and saw an interesting accident. A guy in an SUV was trying to bypass a traffic blockage by driving in the bike lane and was passing a bicyclist on the right. then a wrong way motorcyclist, also in the separated bike lane, swerved around someone pulling out of a parking lot, also in the separated bike lane and startled the first driver, the one in the SUV.

    The guy in the SUV pressed the bicyclist, he was passing, into the dividing barrier and still managed to head on with the motorcycle. . . There is a reason I am no advocate of separated bicycle lanes.
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