Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 55
  1. #26
    covered in cat fur katsrevenge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Willkes-Barre, PA
    My Bikes
    '85 Schwinn World Tourist, 2014 Windsor Kensington 8
    Posts
    386
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    this is a common attitude in areas with few bike facilities. but poorly designed facilites can be worse than no facility at all.
    Anything is better than nothing.

    And once you get 'poorly designed' facilities you are more likely to get more riders who want better facilities.
    Just one of those dirty pinko commies some people worry about.

  2. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,816
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by katsrevenge View Post
    Anything is better than nothing.
    i road by a large fresh pool of blood a few years ago that was linked to a poorly designed bike facility. and that needless death of a young woman provoked the city to admit that this facility was problematic. i wish the family had sued.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  3. #28
    Senior Member puckett129's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Albany, NY
    Posts
    416
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    We have sharrows in Albany. I'd like bike lanes. Properly designed bike lanes would be nice, but I'd take ****ty bike lanes over nothing. There are good designs out there which use traffic signals to work out lots of the issues people have with intersections. I would think professional urban and transportation planners have access to these good designs.

  4. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Brooklyn NY
    Posts
    4,751
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
    Give me an example of a "well designed", protected cycle lane. It doesn't get much more well designed and protective than having a wall of bumper to bumper SUV's and light trucks running the length of the block. And talk about cheap! Hello. This is America. This is not northern (or western) Europe. Public money funds these civil projects in Europe and there is plenty of it because taxes are high and corruption is low. Protected bike lanes do not have to be built out of SUV's in Germany. Moreover, once a bike lane is built in an American urban center, drivers will react swiftly and in a very hostile manner to a cyclist that for whatever reason is spotted outside of the bike corridor. If said cyclist is killed or maimed because of such an encounter the punishment to the driver will be minimal. In Germany, that driver would not ever hold a valid license for such a long time that in effect it would be a permanent suspension of driver privileges. When drivers know that there is/are swift and significant punitive measures for infractions involving pedestrians or cyclists you get a much better environment for both. And... surprise, surprise, in such an enlightened environment, protected cycle paths become more about recreation than transportation! Bike paths eixist in Europe for pleasure! Transportation by bike is performed on the same roads that cars use! NYC has a nice Greenway running up the West-side of Manhattan. Is it practical transportation for a cyclist riding from Brooklyn to lower Manhattan? You'd better HTFU and master the art of navigating Flatbush Ave. and its extension onto the Brooklyn Bridge. Untold legions of cyclists do this daily. With things as they are. And likely to be as they are for the foreseeable future.
    You really should take Vanderbilt. I used to ride down Flatbush, but haven't done that in years because Vanderbilt is so much safer. Take it to Flushing Ave, with a lane, and then you can connect with either the Manhattan or Brooklyn Bridge. Much safer. Also 1st/2nd Ave bike lanes make it tolerable, but I'm not completely sold on the way these are set up. Corralled, hidden and marginalized. You can't escape, you can't be seen, and you're no longer a vehicle on the road. I'm not sure that's a good mix, especially when someone makes a left.

  5. #30
    Senior Member seafood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    110
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wilfried View Post
    I ride the protected bike lanes in New York all the time. In Manhattan, we're talking the wide and fast moving avenues (I'm not sure I see the point of door zone bike lanes or sharrows on the cross streets, but they can't hurt). I'm comfortable rinding on almost any street, but if the bike lane is there, I usually take it, and I'll even go a little bit out of my way to get to a lane. They are less than perfect; there are errant pedestrians, salmon, cars that park again the curb, other bikes doing stupid things, etc. However, you don't have to deal with riding next to moving cars, getting buzzed, getting passed too close, getting cut off, getting boxed in or squeezed by a snarl of traffic, the door zone, etc. There's a buffer between the parked cars and the lane, so you're not in the door zone. You have to stay on your toes, but then you have to stay on your toes everywhere. All in all, there's less to watch out for in the lane, and the things that jump at you are less likely to kill you.

    Negotiating the mixing zone at left turn intersections is a bit of a trick. The parking lane ends before intersection and turns into a turn lane for cars. There's space for you to see cars, and cars to see you. If traffic is clear, you ride in the turn lane so you can't get cut off. If there are cars, it's usually possible to merge into the turn lane and go straight while the cars are turning. Many intersection have bike signals. There's a red left turn signal for a short time for cars while bikes have green. When cars are allowed to turn, the bike signal turns red (granted, bike signals are roundly ignored by cyclists, as are all traffic signals).
    Those are good points, but I don't think they work that well at speed. As you approach 15 or 20mph, the Manhattan avenue protected lanes become increasingly chaotic and the cyclist has to merge further into traffic to contend with the turning lanes -- something that often has to be done every other intersection. Riding these lanes, I get the sense that I have a slightly reduced risk of serious injury, but a much higher risk of any injury or accident, given their narrowness, the closing speeds and frequency of pedestrians stepping into the lanes without looking.

  6. #31
    Senior Member jputnam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Pacific, WA
    My Bikes
    Custom 531ST touring, Bilenky Viewpoint, Bianchi Milano, vintage Condor racer
    Posts
    1,174
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
    I get that the concept of protected bike-ways is an appealing one, but, have any of you advocates considered the cost? I get that it potentially protects your precious patootie, but, have you considered the cost? Or have you considered that it must be possible to create several miles of "standard" unprotected bike lane for every mile of protected bike lane created.
    I commute through Seattle, where the approved facility choices seem to be door-zone bike lanes or poorly-implemented cycletracks. Since cycletracks cost much more, supporting cycletracks means fewer lane miles of perfectly rideable city streets are subjected to either of these worse-than-nothing approaches. So, yes, I've considered the cost.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jputnam/collections/72157604835074312/

  7. #32
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Newtown, PA
    My Bikes
    2012 Breezer Uptown Infinity
    Posts
    1,256
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The cost? What cost? The cost of reduced smog? The cost of more active populace? The cost of communities being connected vs isolate? The cost of expanding your point of view? The cost of less sedintary related illnesses? The cost of breaking our oil addiction?

    I believe the cost of stifling progress is the lower quality of living, lower lifespans, lower spirits, lower expectations, lower ideals.

    It's like, even if there were no climate change, why would you not want to make air cleaner, water cleaner, etc regardless?

    We need solutions, not whining about short term penny pinching.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  8. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,816
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    I commute through Seattle, where the approved facility choices seem to be door-zone bike lanes or poorly-implemented cycletracks. Since cycletracks cost much more, supporting cycletracks means fewer lane miles of perfectly rideable city streets are subjected to either of these worse-than-nothing approaches. So, yes, I've considered the cost.
    that's exactly why buffered bike lanes have become the default facility in PDX.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-04-14 at 04:43 PM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  9. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,816
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    We need solutions, not whining about short term penny pinching.
    - Andy
    Many miles of bike boulevards and buffered bike lanes.

    or

    Another few hundred yards of bike sidewalk (that would be laughed at in copenhagen).
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  10. #35
    Senior Member puckett129's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Albany, NY
    Posts
    416
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    It's like, even if there were no climate change, why would you not want to make air cleaner, water cleaner, etc regardless?

    We need solutions, not whining about short term penny pinching.

    - Andy
    I have been assured that the private sector has the answers to all of this. If we could just reduce their tax burden a little more to 0 then I'm sure everything would turn around!

  11. #36
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Portland OR
    My Bikes
    61 Bianchi Specialissima 71 Peugeot G50 7? P'geot PX10 74 Raleigh GranSport 75 P'geot UO8 78? Raleigh Team Pro 82 P'geot PSV 86 P'geot PX 91 Bridgestone MB0 92 B'stone XO1 97 Rans VRex 92 Cannondale R1000 94 B'stone MB5 97 Vitus 997
    Posts
    3,809
    Mentioned
    41 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Protected cycle tracks would be fine if they were remotely affordable, including the elaborate redesign of every intersection required to make left turns flow safely.

    Here in PDX, there isn't the money for such facilities. We have one experimental protected cycle track for several blocks on Multnomah St, and people complain about its imperfections a lot more than they praise its virtues.

    The standard mantra is that we need bike facilities that will be used by everyone from 8 y/o to 80 y/o and will convert all the "interested but concerned" people. I've gradually become convinced that many of those people are not really interested and their concerns will never be satisfied.
    Your signature contains too many lines and must be shortened. You may only have up to 2 line(s). Long text may have been implicitly wrapped, causing it to be

  12. #37
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Newtown, PA
    My Bikes
    2012 Breezer Uptown Infinity
    Posts
    1,256
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Many miles of bike boulevards and buffered bike lanes.

    or

    Another few hundred yards of bike sidewalk (that would be laughed at in copenhagen).
    HAH!!

    Quote Originally Posted by puckett129 View Post
    I have been assured that the private sector has the answers to all of this. If we could just reduce their tax burden a little more to 0 then I'm sure everything would turn around!
    Oh yes, and give them land grants to build freely as well, even in protected wilderness...

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  13. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    The Big City
    My Bikes
    Brompton M3L, Tern Verge P20
    Posts
    267
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    To add some fodder, if this thread is still alive:

    PSU Prof shares results of bicycling behavior research | BikePortland.org

    Dill's research shows that half of the bicycle trips took place on roads with bike lanes, off-street paths, or that were designated bicycle boulevards. However, she also points out that those facilities represent only about 15% of the infrastructure available to cyclists in the Portland.

    She also found that about one out of every ten miles biked was on a bike boulevard, event though those streets make up one percent or less of the infrastructure. Similarly, while one out of seven miles biked was on an off-street path; these make up only about two percent of the infrastructure available to cyclists.

  14. #39
    covered in cat fur katsrevenge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Willkes-Barre, PA
    My Bikes
    '85 Schwinn World Tourist, 2014 Windsor Kensington 8
    Posts
    386
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wilfried View Post
    To add some fodder, if this thread is still alive:

    PSU Prof shares results of bicycling behavior research | BikePortland.org

    Excuse me while I'm so very not surprised. Those who want to and/or enjoy riding with cars are a minority of riders.

    If you build it, they will come. Literally.

    Heck, here in Wilkes-Barre, land of the corrupt and backwards politics, the completion of a useful MUP (that runs between several towns and has easy on and off ramps that are by useful stores or other bike friendly roads) seems to have preceded a whole lot more people on bikes of all types.
    Just one of those dirty pinko commies some people worry about.

  15. #40
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Newtown, PA
    My Bikes
    2012 Breezer Uptown Infinity
    Posts
    1,256
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I ride on roads because they actually get me where i need to go. Traffic, exhaust, heat from vehicles, dust, potholes... I don't "like it" its just how i get around. The riding itself i love, of course...

    Also, i cant imagine going full speed (30-35 mph) in a bike lane or especially a path. Too narrow & no way out.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  16. #41
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1984 Trek 520; 1990s Peugeot (Canadian-made) rigid mountain bike; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others
    Posts
    8,456
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm always annoyed by the righteous music in these promotional videos.

  17. #42
    covered in cat fur katsrevenge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Willkes-Barre, PA
    My Bikes
    '85 Schwinn World Tourist, 2014 Windsor Kensington 8
    Posts
    386
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So you are saying that even if there was a route sans exhaust fumes and buzzing drivers you'd still take the other one?

    Me, I ride at the study's stated average speed of around 10 miles an hour. And I'm happy to go five minutes out of my way to not have to dodge projectiles and insults and actually enjoy my trip to the grocery store.
    Just one of those dirty pinko commies some people worry about.

  18. #43
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1984 Trek 520; 1990s Peugeot (Canadian-made) rigid mountain bike; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others
    Posts
    8,456
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For us veterans, protected lanes are a mixed blessing. I've been bike commuting for over 20 years and my route to work skirts the edge of downtown. I have no problem riding in traffic and can go on any street anywhere, and at my own speed. I'm never impeded by other traffic. One of the problems with a protected bike lane, especially if it is two-way, or even if it is narrow, is that if it gets congested, you may be stuck behind slower bikes, and especially a family or friends riding side-by-side. On a regular road there's more room to pass (if you don't mind merging with car traffic, or waiting for a gap in overtaking motor vehicles) and no oncoming bike traffic to contend with. So newbies may feel safer, but for me it may prove inconvenient.

    And unless we live in Copenhagen or Amsterdam, we can't expect our protected bike lanes to go wherever we want, so we still have to veer off onto unprotected streets at some point in our route.

    Still, the protected bike lane may get you through the most congested, most hazardous sections of downtown, and then you can use unprotected streets as you get out of the commerce district. Plus the streets in the heart of downtown may be badly rutted and potholed and the protected lane is probably smoother.
    Last edited by cooker; 05-05-14 at 02:51 PM.

  19. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,816
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wilfried View Post
    To add some fodder, if this thread is still alive:

    PSU Prof shares results of bicycling behavior research | BikePortland.org
    Dill's research shows that half of the bicycle trips took place on roads with bike lanes, off-street paths, or that were designated bicycle boulevards.
    first of all, most portland cyclists, including me, love bike lanes (especially nice wide buffered bike lanes that steal travel lanes from teh evil cajahs). secondly, dill's research found that the majority of "interested but concerned" cyclists were comfortable riding in crappy conventional bike lanes (yuck) on the typical portland street. thirdly, we portlanders like our bike boulevards and off street bike paths (except when they are too crowded).

    Figure 6 here: http://web.pdx.edu/~jdill/Types_of_C...rkingPaper.pdf
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-05-14 at 02:49 PM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  20. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,816
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    Still, the protected bike lane may get you through the most congested, most hazardous sections of downtown, and then you can use unprotected streets as you get out of the commerce district.
    i think one of the problems is that people in usanian cities want cycle tracks and cycle paths without taming the bull. speed reduction and traffic calming are essential to making downtown areas safe for active transport. for example, portland's downtown has a traffic-signal enforced speed limit of ~16 mph. the last thing we need in this low speed environment is some big ugly protected bike lane. imo, cage storage space reduction, traffic calming, and elimination of cages from entire lanes or streets would be a far cheaper and more appealing solution.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  21. #46
    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    MD/DC/VA
    Posts
    2,888
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ultimately, I'm hoping we can budget separate bike lanes for slower riders and kids, and faster lanes for serious bike commuters. This might mean reducing car lanes here and there, and narrower sidewalks in some places, but just think how great it would be. All lanes separated by generous buffers, of course.

  22. #47
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1984 Trek 520; 1990s Peugeot (Canadian-made) rigid mountain bike; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others
    Posts
    8,456
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by alan s View Post
    Ultimately, I'm hoping we can budget separate bike lanes for slower riders and kids, and faster lanes for serious bike commuters. This might mean reducing car lanes here and there, and narrower sidewalks in some places, but just think how great it would be. All lanes separated by generous buffers, of course.
    ....wait for it....

  23. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    The Big City
    My Bikes
    Brompton M3L, Tern Verge P20
    Posts
    267
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    i think one of the problems is that people in usanian cities want cycle tracks and cycle paths without taming the bull. speed reduction and traffic calming are essential to making downtown areas safe for active transport. for example, portland's downtown has a traffic-signal enforced speed limit of ~16 mph. the last thing we need in this low speed environment is some big ugly protected bike lane. imo, cage storage space reduction, traffic calming, and elimination of cages from entire lanes or streets would be a far cheaper and more appealing solution.
    To hear bike and complete streets advocates talk, bikes lanes are part of traffic calming. Take a lane away from cars and give it to bicycles, and the street's gone on a road diet, and the street becomes safer for all users, pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers alike. That's the theory anyway; it does seem to be born out by some evidence.

  24. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,553
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zacster View Post
    You really should take Vanderbilt. I used to ride down Flatbush, but haven't done that in years because Vanderbilt is so much safer. Take it to Flushing Ave, with a lane, and then you can connect with either the Manhattan or Brooklyn Bridge. Much safer. Also 1st/2nd Ave bike lanes make it tolerable, but I'm not completely sold on the way these are set up. Corralled, hidden and marginalized. You can't escape, you can't be seen, and you're no longer a vehicle on the road. I'm not sure that's a good mix, especially when someone makes a left.
    I haven't lived in NYC for 8 years. Flatbush was simply the first mainline surface street that came to mind. I've used Vanderbilt. I've also used 4th Ave. and turned onto Atlantic. None of those streets had bike lanes when I was using them. We survived. Cyclists of today don't want cars around them. They don't want to see them, hear them or smell them. Not happening anytime soon.

    H

  25. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,553
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    Protected cycle tracks would be fine if they were remotely affordable, including the elaborate redesign of every intersection required to make left turns flow safely.

    Here in PDX, there isn't the money for such facilities. We have one experimental protected cycle track for several blocks on Multnomah St, and people complain about its imperfections a lot more than they praise its virtues.


    The standard mantra is that we need bike facilities that will be used by everyone from 8 y/o to 80 y/o and will convert all the "interested but concerned" people. I've gradually become convinced that many of those people are not really interested and their concerns will never be satisfied.

    This. This! THIS!

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •