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  1. #51
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    I've all ready put 80 miles in & i can say it is far from junk. It has mountain bike level of low end ratio for long or steep hills. In fact i got up a hill i normally had to walk up first try... Only thing i would change is the high end to get a bit more speed out of it especially when i am not in stop-start areas. I'm sure that will be addressed in the next generation. But, the bike isn't really meant for speed, it's a commuter/town/utility bike. The speed thing...that's just my own personal preference and riding style. It always takes me weeks to months to really get comfortable with a new bike especially when it's so different from the one before.

    - Andy
    I put it in the same category as belt drives.

    Interesting but not bringing anything new to the table.

    The IGH field is saturated all the way from a Nexus 3 (€50) to a Rohloff (€1000).

    What makes this one special besides the CVT hype?

    Novelty perhaps?
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  2. #52
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    I put it in the same category as belt drives.

    Interesting but not bringing anything new to the table.

    The IGH field is saturated all the way from a Nexus 3 (€50) to a Rohloff (€1000).

    What makes this one special besides the CVT hype?

    Novelty perhaps?
    I ever buy into hype. I am much more intrigued by facts & reality. Coming from a 4 speed cruiser i can say it fits my own needs perfectly. It goes lower at the low end than my cruiser, it sits most favorably compared to my old 21 speed in the small ring and 1st gear. The top end is closer to big ring and somewhere between 4th and 5th. Like i said, it lacks that upper end ratio for high speeds, but you don't want to ride that style geometry it at high speeds, it's too upright vs a road bike. The low end is especially great for starting with full bags going uphill, which is why they paired it with this design (the 8 and infinity share the same frame etc). It's a climber and a cruiser, not a speeder. I've ridden the 8 with 8 speed internal hub, it does not give you the same super low end. I shortcut on grass all the time, the 8 would bog down there bigtime, especially with anything being carried.

    The belt drive is another thing all together. It is not meant to completely replace chains, as the CVT is not meant to replace geared hubs. They have specific strengths and are best incorporated into designs that play to those strengths. I may look into belt drive, because i'm tired of chains wearing out and needing constant upkeep especially for someone like me that rides year round in all weather. A recreational rider may not need a belt, but that does nt make it a novelty.

    I did my homework and did a test ride of a few different bikes over the last few years. The one i got was the best fit, and has opened up new and longer routes that any of my older bikes would have had serious issue with. That's the whole point of there being so many different models and options out there.... no one set of bikes from one company fits every need....

    If i lived in a very flat area.... i'd probably have ended up with a 3 or single speed, but there are huge hills here that i need low end rations to climb, and i don't want to be slugging along at 10 mph either......

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  3. #53
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    I ever buy into hype. I am much more intrigued by facts & reality. Coming from a 4 speed cruiser i can say it fits my own needs perfectly. It goes lower at the low end than my cruiser, it sits most favorably compared to my old 21 speed in the small ring and 1st gear. The top end is closer to big ring and somewhere between 4th and 5th. Like i said, it lacks that upper end ratio for high speeds, but you don't want to ride that style geometry it at high speeds, it's too upright vs a road bike. The low end is especially great for starting with full bags going uphill, which is why they paired it with this design (the 8 and infinity share the same frame etc). It's a climber and a cruiser, not a speeder. I've ridden the 8 with 8 speed internal hub, it does not give you the same super low end. I shortcut on grass all the time, the 8 would bog down there bigtime, especially with anything being carried.

    The belt drive is another thing all together. It is not meant to completely replace chains, as the CVT is not meant to replace geared hubs. They have specific strengths and are best incorporated into designs that play to those strengths. I may look into belt drive, because i'm tired of chains wearing out and needing constant upkeep especially for someone like me that rides year round in all weather. A recreational rider may not need a belt, but that does nt make it a novelty.

    I did my homework and did a test ride of a few different bikes over the last few years. The one i got was the best fit, and has opened up new and longer routes that any of my older bikes would have had serious issue with. That's the whole point of there being so many different models and options out there.... no one set of bikes from one company fits every need....

    If i lived in a very flat area.... i'd probably have ended up with a 3 or single speed, but there are huge hills here that i need low end rations to climb, and i don't want to be slugging along at 10 mph either......

    - Andy
    Aside from novelty, I struggle to see any value in the NuVinci when compared to the current IGH offerings. Most of those offerings are summarised here.

    The Internal Gear Hub Review | Hubstripping.com

    You statement seems subjective without objective data analysis. I seem to be missing the evidence for the technical details you are describing.
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  4. #54
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    Aside from novelty, I struggle to see any value in the NuVinci when compared to the current IGH offerings. Most of those offerings are summarised here.

    The Internal Gear Hub Review | Hubstripping.com

    You statement seems subjective without objective data analysis. I seem to be missing the evidence for the technical details you are describing.
    Based on that chart ...... It's the next best after the wildly expensive speedhub.... 360 degrees, similar to an 11 speed internal geared hub, which is ironically the closest thing i could compare it to on a bike I've actually ridden (shop test ride). I think the ranging is different than the 11, with emphasis on haul capability vs top end speed. & i dunno how literally the way it works is subjective...

    I got it because after a test ride i was very impressed, not because "oh em gee its so uber swag"...

    Again, this is not europe. Most people here are fine with buying a wallyworld BSO and being done with it. The pricing is the way it is. If you can't afford, then don't buy....?

    Not sure what your beef with the N360 is, but for me, the actual user of the thing, it is performing better than i expected for my specific use, which is why i originally wanted the uptown infinity but could not afford. I happened by chance on this incredible deal on an bike which someone else ordered in 2012 then canceled the purchase. I don't follow fads, trends, hype etc etc & the implication that i somehow got this thing because of hype is laughable to say the least. I would reccommend N360 for anyone for town/commuter/utility purposes. Remember, i do not care how fast i get there. I need to haul 60-70 lbs of groceries when i go shopping. I also need to carry things like tools and various other items including anything i use for my profession. In case you missed it, i've inquired here about trailers to haul cargo, heavy cargo, not "look at my hipster ironic high fashion statement bike"..... I am looking to expand out from my current offerings to help people move things, be it a purchase from shop to home/business, or moving across town, or what have you..

    I'm just gonna leave this here, because i'm the one who has actually used the hub, and i find no flaws with it for the way i use my bike, and it's a huge upgrade from the 4 speed i was using before, which lacked the low end ratio i've been looking for and even mentioned being able ot make it up a 26.7 percent gradient that i've never been able to ride up before EVEN THOUGH the bike is heavier!!!

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  5. #55
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    Based on that chart ...... It's the next best after the wildly expensive speedhub.... 360 degrees, similar to an 11 speed internal geared hub, which is ironically the closest thing i could compare it to on a bike I've actually ridden (shop test ride). I think the ranging is different than the 11, with emphasis on haul capability vs top end speed. & i dunno how literally the way it works is subjective...

    I got it because after a test ride i was very impressed, not because "oh em gee its so uber swag"...

    Again, this is not europe. Most people here are fine with buying a wallyworld BSO and being done with it. The pricing is the way it is. If you can't afford, then don't buy....?

    Not sure what your beef with the N360 is, but for me, the actual user of the thing, it is performing better than i expected for my specific use, which is why i originally wanted the uptown infinity but could not afford. I happened by chance on this incredible deal on an bike which someone else ordered in 2012 then canceled the purchase. I don't follow fads, trends, hype etc etc & the implication that i somehow got this thing because of hype is laughable to say the least. I would reccommend N360 for anyone for town/commuter/utility purposes. Remember, i do not care how fast i get there. I need to haul 60-70 lbs of groceries when i go shopping. I also need to carry things like tools and various other items including anything i use for my profession. In case you missed it, i've inquired here about trailers to haul cargo, heavy cargo, not "look at my hipster ironic high fashion statement bike"..... I am looking to expand out from my current offerings to help people move things, be it a purchase from shop to home/business, or moving across town, or what have you..

    I'm just gonna leave this here, because i'm the one who has actually used the hub, and i find no flaws with it for the way i use my bike, and it's a huge upgrade from the 4 speed i was using before, which lacked the low end ratio i've been looking for and even mentioned being able ot make it up a 26.7 percent gradient that i've never been able to ride up before EVEN THOUGH the bike is heavier!!!

    - Andy
    I've used the Speedhub for a few months on a loaner bike, while in Frankfurt.

    I don't have a beef with the hub, I just haven't seen a review from a trustworthy reviewer ( i.e. from someone who has experience with other hubs). Essentially, you don't have a baseline, so it's not reasonable to have expectations (i.e., similar from going from only a pass/train pass to having a car and saying cars are great).

    Which, in my opinion, is a bad sign, similar a belt-driven bike, if the technology was that advantageous, cyclists, would have upgraded and they'd be a pool of usable reviewers, right?
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  6. #56
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    360 degrees, similar to an 11 speed internal geared hub, which is ironically the closest thing i could compare it to on a bike I've actually ridden (shop test ride). I think the ranging is different than the 11, with emphasis on haul capability vs top end speed. & i dunno how literally the way it works is subjective...
    Also, could one just put a larger gear on the 11? To shift the range of gearing for a lot less money than a NuVinci.

    Wiggle | Shimano Alfine Single Sprocket with Chain Guide | Cassettes & Freewheels

    seems to be cheaper (£7).

    i'm just really curious about the hype and I'm more critical of things that receive hype.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    Also, could one just put a larger gear on the 11? To shift the range of gearing for a lot less money than a NuVinci.

    Wiggle | Shimano Alfine Single Sprocket with Chain Guide | Cassettes & Freewheels

    seems to be cheaper (£7).

    i'm just really curious about the hype and I'm more critical of things that receive hype.
    Keep in mind that my old shimano 4 BROKE. It would jam and switch gears, and one time 2 weeks after this started i was going around 22 mph and i shifted up from 2 to 3 and the shift cable wrapped around the rear axle. I could not stop nor turn left because it pulled tight to the screwed down cable anchor on the bottom of the frame. I had to use my feet on the ground to stop & ran right through an intersection and nearly got hit by 3 cars. I never want to experience that again, and as the N360 has no gear teeth to wear out and break inside, i'm 10000% happy with my purchase for that reason alone.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by puckett129 View Post
    Yes, once you guys get cobblestone streets you'll understand that USB rechargeable lights are bull****.
    just the other day i was riding single track on larch mtn and i said to myself: there sure are a lot of mountain bikers with 4 lb hub dynamos and 25 lumen stvzo-compliant lights!
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  9. #59
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    just the other day i was riding single track on larch mtn and i said to myself: there sure are a lot of mountain bikers with 4 lb hub dynamos and 25 lumen stvzo-compliant lights!
    Larch mountain ... I wouldn't even waste my time



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  10. #60
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    Aside from novelty, I struggle to see any value in the NuVinci when compared to the current IGH offerings.
    The advantage is that it doesn't have stepped gears;it effectively has an almost unlimited number of gears. Many IGH's have big steps between gears,which can make it hard to maintain the cadence you want. The NuVinci allows you to dial in the gearing to exactly what you want.

    As for belt drives,they're a proven technology in in the motorcycle world. Biggest issues in the cycling world are that frames must be designed with an opening to pass the belt through,and belts cannot be lengthened/shortened like chains,which makes changing your gearing problematic.

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  11. #61
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    The advantage is that it doesn't have stepped gears;it effectively has an almost unlimited number of gears. Many IGH's have big steps between gears,which can make it hard to maintain the cadence you want. The NuVinci allows you to dial in the gearing to exactly what you want.

    As for belt drives,they're a proven technology in in the motorcycle world. Biggest issues in the cycling world are that frames must be designed with an opening to pass the belt through,and belts cannot be lengthened/shortened like chains,which makes changing your gearing problematic.
    I'm not convinced that an unlimited number of gears is beneficial in practice.

    It sounds suspiciously like an unlimited number of channels or unlimited bandwidth.

    Put it around the Nürburgring against a 3-speed, a 7-speed and a Speedhub-equipped bike and then we'll see.

    As far as the belt being a proven technology, but requiring the rear triangle to be broken ... sounds like a solution without a problem.

    I guess that's my issue and I put the NuVinci in the same category.

    Maybe, it will end up like "lasers."
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  12. #62
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    I'm not convinced that an unlimited number of gears is beneficial in practice.

    Put it around the Nürburgring against a 3-speed, a 7-speed and a Speedhub-equipped bike and then we'll see.
    You're missing the point. This isn't a performance issue. Someone with health issues could benefit from this;they could choose the exact gear that they want,rather than having to spin or mash due to the steps in a traditional hub.

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  13. #63
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    You're missing the point. This isn't a performance issue. Someone with health issues could benefit from this;they could choose the exact gear that they want,rather than having to spin or mash due to the steps in a traditional hub.
    That's a stretch and a tiny part of the bicycle market. An invention without a use.

    What's the effective gearing range of the NuVinci?

    edit:

    http://www.fallbrooktech.com/sites/d...CT%20Sheet.pdf

    according to this 0.5 underdrive to 1.8 overdrive.

    edit2: this is the fastest and easiest method to compare on simpel's website:

    http://www.simpel.ch/fileadmin/spezt...arInchCard.pdf

    edit3: seems overly complex without offering much more of a gearing range. do I really need more than 8 or 11 or a typical 27-speed system? like I said, it doesn't seem to offer much. maybe it offers longevity, but it's not so cheap at €317 for a kit.
    Last edited by acidfast7; 05-12-14 at 05:40 PM.
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  14. #64
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    You're missing the point. This isn't a performance issue. Someone with health issues could benefit from this;they could choose the exact gear that they want,rather than having to spin or mash due to the steps in a traditional hub.
    I can't think of any clearer way to put this.

    Let me put it another way,just because you or I aren't interested in one of these,doesn't mean someone else won't benefit from it. The fact is they've been around for a decent amount of time,and they are available on several bikes,so obviously some people like it.

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  15. #65
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    I can't think of any clearer way to put this.

    Let me put it another way,just because you or I aren't interested in one of these,doesn't mean someone else won't benefit from it. The fact is they've been around for a decent amount of time,and they are available on several bikes,so obviously some people like it.
    It's a fad with no staying power, just like belts. Just stating the obvious for the record that will prove me correct over time.

    Only time will demonstrate this, so there's no further sense proving my point.
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  16. #66
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    It's a fad with no staying power, just like belts. Just stating the obvious for the record that will prove me correct over time.

    Only time will demonstrate this, so there's no further sense proving my point.
    I used an iPhone in stores etc for 2 years before deciding to get one. I have had 3 models in a row now. Everyone has copied apple's design & now slab phones with capacitive touch is the new standard.

    Everyone said internal hubs were a fad. Everyone said computers, watches, television, railroads etc were a fad, yet here we are. If you really want to argue, i can see further generations of the CVT getting lighter, more efficient, and having muchly increased ratio range. And as for racing them, again, it was not built for speed. If you are going to test them, do it with a loaded trailer & panniers, and not on a flat track but a real town with hills.

    Edit: And by the way, belt drives were the first form of power transmission from steam engines. Whole factories were belt powered. Chains are noisy & heavy in comparison.

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    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    It's a fad with no staying power, just like belts. Just stating the obvious for the record that will prove me correct over time.

    Only time will demonstrate this, so there's no further sense proving my point.
    I don't know if the NuVinci is here to stay or not but it does apparently do away with one annoying aspect of my Shimano Alfine, - and that's the big jump between 4th and 5th gears. And every once in awhile the Alfine complains while shifting or jumps gears if it's not adjusted properly. Maybe I'm wrong but I would think the CVT aspects of the NuVinci would eliminate those kinds of problems. It may introduce new ones.

    So I'm intrigued by it. From a strictly functional standpoint does it offer anything unique? If all you care about is the gearing range, then probably not. If you like the smooth feel and quiet of a fixed gear, but with the ability to adjust output to your power range the way a geared bike can (but with smooth transitions), then maybe.

    I'm discouraged by the weight and concerned about performance in bitter cold though. They use two cables as well, right? If so, not thrilled by that.

    Anyway, You can get new rim brake versions on Ebay for $150.

    As an intellectual, I'm surprised how quickly you have dismissed the CVT "hype" without really seeming to understand why someone might value that. Personally, I'd love to at least try one.

    I thought fixed gears were a fad too and in the end they may well turn out to be. But I've enjoyed mine so far.
    Last edited by tjspiel; 05-12-14 at 09:35 PM.
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

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    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjspiel View Post

    As an intellectual, I'm surprised how quickly you have dismissed the CVT "hype" without really seeming to understand why someone might value that.
    I just took in a bunch a PhD students (6 of them) under my wing and I'm trying to train them to do important things and not "just things."

    So, I guess I'm on a kick of "just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should be done."

    I get the vibe that the CVT falls into this category as I haven't seen a justification for going through the process except that it's just neat. (To be fair, the one comment about a few people having the perfect cadence is OK. But, I think that market would be quite small and I'm not convinced that the jumps are too large ... like 10 rpm difference between "speed" on the Alfine 11).
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  19. #69
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    It has two cables, because the shift mechanism inside needs reference on both sides. I would say that a single cable tube with 2 sections (like a figure 8) to it might work to reduce clutter, but it still needs two cables.

    My question, is if they got it to 500 degrees vs 360, would you still think it was a fad? What if the weight dropped a pound or two? What about both?

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    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    It has two cables, because the shift mechanism inside needs reference on both sides. I would say that a single cable tube with 2 sections (like a figure 8) to it might work to reduce clutter, but it still needs two cables.

    My question, is if they got it to 500 degrees vs 360, would you still think it was a fad? What if the weight dropped a pound or two? What about both?

    - Andy
    500 percent would be more interesting if the price point was lower.

    I don't care about weight on a bicycle (as the rider is roughly 90% of the bike+rider mass).
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  21. #71
    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    It has two cables, because the shift mechanism inside needs reference on both sides. I would say that a single cable tube with 2 sections (like a figure 8) to it might work to reduce clutter, but it still needs two cables.

    My question, is if they got it to 500 degrees vs 360, would you still think it was a fad? What if the weight dropped a pound or two? What about both?

    - Andy
    I need to learn more about them but lighter weight would help and a wider range certainly wouldn't hurt. Longevity and reliability would be key. It sounds like the Alfine 11 has had some teething pains.

    At first glance the CVT would seem to be a simpler mechanism, especially once you start trying to cram 11 speeds into a traditional gear hub. The idea of never having to lubricate it is also attractive but I wonder how well the seals would hold up over time under varied weather conditions.
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

  22. #72
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjspiel View Post
    I need to learn more about them but lighter weight would help and a wider range certainly wouldn't hurt. Longevity and reliability would be key. It sounds like the Alfine 11 has had some teething pains.

    At first glance the CVT would seem to be a simpler mechanism, especially once you start trying to cram 11 speeds into a traditional gear hub. The idea of never having to lubricate it is also attractive but I wonder how well the seals would hold up over time under varied weather conditions.
    Well, consider me an early adopter then. I'll take note of any changes over the next year. We have 100 temps upcoming, and this winter should be bitter cold, so yea.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

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    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    I just took in a bunch a PhD students (6 of them) under my wing and I'm trying to train them to do important things and not "just things."
    Hopefully you're only passing on facts and not opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    I get the vibe that the CVT falls into this category as I haven't seen a justification for going through the process except that it's just neat. (To be fair, the one comment about a few people having the perfect cadence is OK. But, I think that market would be quite small and I'm not convinced that the jumps are too large ... like 10 rpm difference between "speed" on the Alfine 11).
    Read what you've been posting. In fact,have your students read it. You've basically stated that in your opinion the CVT isn't worth anything,and because of this they should go away. But the fact that this hub is out there,and being sold as OEM on bikes,means someone likes it. Just because you don't like something,doesn't make it worthless to the entire planet.

    C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport/Qualifier,Dahon Speed Pro TT,Brompton S6L

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    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Hopefully you're only passing on facts and not opinions.



    Read what you've been posting. In fact,have your students read it. You've basically stated that in your opinion the CVT isn't worth anything,and because of this they should go away. But the fact that this hub is out there,and being sold as OEM on bikes,means someone likes it. Just because you don't like something,doesn't make it worthless to the entire planet.
    show me the market share percentage, then you have a leg to stand on
    Movimento 5 Stelle (M5S)
    Rohloffs seen on the commute: 3

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    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    ???

    How many people have Schlumpf drives? How many bikes come stock with trekking bars? Just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it's worthless.

    And by the way,what's the market share for Rohloffs compared to other hubs? I've seen lots of bikes with Shimanos and SA's;by your logic I guess those Rohloffs must not be to good.

    C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport/Qualifier,Dahon Speed Pro TT,Brompton S6L

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