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  1. #76
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    ???

    How many people have Schlumpf drives? How many bikes come stock with trekking bars? Just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it's worthless.

    And by the way,what's the market share for Rohloffs compared to other hubs? I've seen lots of bikes with Shimanos and SA's;by your logic I guess those Rohloffs must not be to good.
    no data within.

    what a surprise

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  2. #77
    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    no data within.

    what a surprise


    I don't know if that information is even readily available to the public but I think it's fair to say that it's a niche product at this point. FWIW Fallbrook did add two new sales/marketing type positions in Europe earlier this year.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fallbr...220900668.html
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

  3. #78
    Senior Member puckett129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjspiel View Post
    I don't know if that information is even readily available to the public but I think it's fair to say that it's a niche product at this point. FWIW Fallbrook did add two new sales/marketing type positions in Europe earlier this year.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fallbr...220900668.html
    Well, there's clearly a product that is being shoved down the throats of consumers who have not analyzed all of the data before purchasing.

  4. #79
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puckett129 View Post
    Well, there's clearly a product that is being shoved down the throats of consumers who have not analyzed all of the data before purchasing.
    My argument is that it doesn't address an unmet need and that it's a niche product that with die over time, just like belt drive bikes.

    I've maintained this argument since the beginning of the thread and not one person has produced a single advantage over a tradition IGH for an average rider. One response had merit in terms of suggesting that a slightly disabled person could find an optimal ratio.

    It's just a novelty product, and we know what happens to novelty products over time ...

    Just curious whether I missed anything, but judging my the dearth of advantages presented, apparently not.
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  5. #80
    Senior Member puckett129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    My argument is that it doesn't address an unmet need and that it's a niche product that with die over time, just like belt drive bikes.

    I've maintained this argument since the beginning of the thread and not one person has produced a single advantage over a tradition IGH for an average rider. One response had merit in terms of suggesting that a slightly disabled person could find an optimal ratio.

    It's just a novelty product, and we know what happens to novelty products over time ...

    Just curious whether I missed anything, but judging my the dearth of advantages presented, apparently not.
    I cannot speak to the advantages offered... I do not know. I will not pretend to know or come up with an assumption based on my own biases. I don't know the motivation for those who have purchased this hub or for manufacturers who have spec'd it on their bikes. Not everything is a rational choice that you can analyze and boil down to fully understand why someone did or did not do something. Even if you tried you likely be wrong.

    One thing that I can say for certain is that the market appears to be proving you wrong. It has value to people because they are buying it... just as others have said. That's what buying something is... expression of value through the market. Your contention that you will be proven right in the long term is worthless because neither you nor I can tell the future. If you could you would't be teaching chemistry or whatever it is that you do - you'd be filthy rich.

  6. #81
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puckett129 View Post
    I cannot speak to the advantages offered... I do not know. I will not pretend to know or come up with an assumption based on my own biases. I don't know the motivation for those who have purchased this hub or for manufacturers who have spec'd it on their bikes. Not everything is a rational choice that you can analyze and boil down to fully understand why someone did or did not do something. Even if you tried you likely be wrong.

    One thing that I can say for certain is that the market appears to be proving you wrong. It has value to people because they are buying it... just as others have said. That's what buying something is... expression of value through the market. Your contention that you will be proven right in the long term is worthless because neither you nor I can tell the future. If you could you would't be teaching chemistry or whatever it is that you do - you'd be filthy rich.
    Without a % of market share, your comments have no value.

    It could be 2% gimmicky people or people buying by accident.

    I don't care about money. Americans
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  7. #82
    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    My argument is that it doesn't address an unmet need and that it's a niche product that with die over time, just like belt drive bikes.

    I've maintained this argument since the beginning of the thread and not one person has produced a single advantage over a tradition IGH for an average rider. One response had merit in terms of suggesting that a slightly disabled person could find an optimal ratio.

    It's just a novelty product, and we know what happens to novelty products over time ...

    Just curious whether I missed anything, but judging my the dearth of advantages presented, apparently not.
    Advantages:

    Simpler mechanism
    quieter operation
    no "steps" between gear ratios
    better shifting under load
    no jarring miss-shifts or phantom shifts
    no maintenance other than cable adjustment


    Disadvantages:

    Cost
    Weight
    Smaller range than some (more than others)
    requires two cables
    less efficient
    cold weather operation (?)


    It's not that the advantages aren't there, you've just dismissed them as unimportant because they don't matter much to you personally. Someone else may find them very compelling. The world is full of different products that perform more or less the same function, but each will have its fans because of the way they perform that function.

    Campagnola has some die hard fans, - not because their products provide functionality that can't be found elsewhere or because they're the cheapest, it's because some people prefer how they work. Then of course there's marketing and the prestige factor. Rohloff probably makes some sales due to that.
    Last edited by tjspiel; 05-14-14 at 12:25 PM.
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

  8. #83
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjspiel View Post
    Advantages:

    Simpler mechanism
    quieter operation
    no "steps" between gear ratios
    better shifting under load
    no jarring miss-shifts or phantom shifts
    no maintenance other than cable adjustment


    Disadvantages:

    Cost
    Weight
    Smaller range than some (more than others)
    requires two cables
    less efficient
    cold weather operation (?)


    It's not that the advantages aren't there, you've just dismissed them as unimportant because they don't matter much to you personally. Someone else may find them very compelling. The world is full of different products that perform more or less the same function, but each will have its fans because of the way they perform that function.
    I actually haven't seen any objective evidence of:

    Quieter operation (#2 adv)
    Better shifting (#4 and #5 of adv)
    No Maintenance (#6 adv)
    Less efficient (#5 disadv)
    Cold weather (#6 disadv)

    as far as the others:

    simpler operation (why is this better)
    weight (does this 1kg matter on a 100kg rider+bike)
    requires two cables (are you stressing more points of failure or of maintenance)

    I really think it's untested and thus novelty. Not really, the world is not full of products that all provide the same function. The world is full of a few surviving products that the invisible hand allow (or the government regulates.)

    I do find it humorous that you state "simpler mechanism" as an advantage.
    Movimento 5 Stelle (M5S)
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  9. #84
    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    I actually haven't seen any objective evidence of:

    Quieter operation (#2 adv)
    Better shifting (#4 and #5 of adv)
    No Maintenance (#6 adv)
    Less efficient (#5 disadv)
    Cold weather (#6 disadv)

    as far as the others:

    simpler operation (why is this better)
    weight (does this 1kg matter on a 100kg rider+bike)
    requires two cables (are you stressing more points of failure or of maintenance)

    I really think it's untested and thus novelty. Not really, the world is not full of products that all provide the same function. The world is full of a few surviving products that the invisible hand allow (or the government regulates.)

    I do find it humorous that you state "simpler mechanism" as an advantage.
    You said that very few advantages had been given and I provided six. Now you're complaining because there isn't objective evidence supporting them. The lists were a compilation of things I was readily able to find based (among other things) on the opinions of people who have actually used the N360 and have used other IGHs like the Alfine and the Rohloff.

    Is it objective evidence? No. But how many purchasing decisions are made strictly on objective evidence? Even if you could find objective studies finding everything I listed to be true, the relative importance of those advantages and disadvantages is entirely subjective.

    I'm glad you found humor in my comment about a simpler mechanism but when you can't find 10 year studies comparing the longevity of a Rohloff vs a N360, one thing you can look at is how they work. The N360 has a lot fewer parts. I would guess they don't need to be manufactured to the same high tolerances that many of the Rohloff parts do. That is an advantage. How easy would it be to improve the Rohloff design to get a wider range without increasing steps between gears and not sacrificing reliability or cost? How easy would it be to improve the N360 design to accomplish the same? I don't know the answer but I suspect the N360 design has a little more headroom.
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

  10. #85
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjspiel View Post
    You said that very few advantages had been given and I provided six. Now you're complaining because there isn't objective evidence supporting them. The lists were a compilation of things I was readily able to find based (among other things) on the opinions of people who have actually used the N360 and have used other IGHs like the Alfine and the Rohloff.

    Is it objective evidence? No. But how many purchasing decisions are made strictly on objective evidence? Even if you could find objective studies finding everything I listed to be true, the relative importance of those advantages and disadvantages is entirely subjective.

    I'm glad you found humor in my comment about a simpler mechanism but when you can't find 10 year studies comparing the longevity of a Rohloff vs a N360, one thing you can look at is how they work. The N360 has a lot fewer parts. I would guess they don't need to be manufactured to the same high tolerances that many of the Rohloff parts do. That is an advantage. How easy would it be to improve the Rohloff design to get a wider range without increasing steps between gears and not sacrificing reliability or cost? How easy would it be to improve the N360 design to accomplish the same? I don't know the answer but I suspect the N360 design has a little more headroom.
    Until there's objective evidence, it's just anecdotal, right?

    I base just about all of my purchases on objective evidence, unless I choose to disregard it like with my colourful bike. Because I can. Then I clearly state this I'm doing it because it's cool or neat. TransitBiker seems like a nice person and I would drop the argument if (s)he would just say I did it because I can, etc ... and not try to subjective justify that "it rides different" etc ...

    As for your last example, Rolhoff has hubs that have done 200000+ km with oil changes. Get back to me when someone has shown that an N360 has done 1000, 5000 or 10000km and then we can rationally discuss "fewer parts being better."
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    It's just a novelty product, and we know what happens to novelty products over time ...
    IGHs have been novelty products in north america for many generations and yet there are europeans and euro-philes who continue to insist that world gearing domination is just around the corner.

    if i had to guess about what kind of dts most of us will be riding in 20 years, i'd bet on electronic derailleurs.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  12. #87
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    IGHs have been novelty products in north america for many generations and yet there are europeans and euro-philes who continue to insist that world gearing domination is just around the corner.

    if i had to guess about what kind of dts most of us will be riding in 20 years, i'd bet on electronic derailleurs.
    I doubt it. The lowest price point will win ... which is cheap 3/5/7-speed IGH bikes with dynamos.

    Then again, NA sales trends tend to buck the world (autos/bikes/clothing) but the market is usually brought to heal over time, which is great because it keep the engineering over here. Which I like because it keeps a technical student pool available.
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  13. #88
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Old Brits even time trialed on 3 speeds , because the other stuff was so... French..

  14. #89
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    Old Brits even time trialed on 3 speeds , because the other stuff was so... French..
    The French should stick to croissants, electronic music and union-facilitated protests.
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  15. #90
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    I loved it when their farmers turned Avenue des Champs-Élysées into a flash-farm BBC News - In pictures: Champs-Elysees turn green

    Parc d' Triomphe

    Park de Triomphe - the day French farmers turned the Champs Elysees into a garden | Mail Online

  16. #91
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    I loved it when their farmers turned Avenue des Champs-Élysées into a flash-farm BBC News - In pictures: Champs-Elysees turn green

    Parc d' Triomphe

    Park de Triomphe - the day French farmers turned the Champs Elysees into a garden | Mail Online
    As is evident to everyone on BF, I gotta say that I love Europe!

    That is stellar.
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  17. #92
    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    Until there's objective evidence, it's just anecdotal, right?

    I base just about all of my purchases on objective evidence, unless I choose to disregard it like with my colourful bike. Because I can. Then I clearly state this I'm doing it because it's cool or neat. TransitBiker seems like a nice person and I would drop the argument if (s)he would just say I did it because I can, etc ... and not try to subjective justify that "it rides different" etc ...

    As for your last example, Rolhoff has hubs that have done 200000+ km with oil changes. Get back to me when someone has shown that an N360 has done 1000, 5000 or 10000km and then we can rationally discuss "fewer parts being better."
    Is your impression of the N360 based on objective evidence or is it more of a knee-jerk reaction? Because if you were really interested I don't think you'd have any trouble finding people who've got 1,000 or 5,000 km on one. 10,000 is a little harder since they've only been out since 2010 but FWIW here's a German guy who took an 18,000 km tour in Australia on a N360 equipped e-bike: Maximilian Semsch, Filmemacher, Reisefotograf, Abenteurer - Australien mit dem Fahrrad

    Nuvinci was one of the trip's sponsors so yeah, if there were problems, he may not have been forthcoming about them.

    I base all my purchasing decisions on objective evidence too, - unless I don't.

    Usually I don't feel compelled to declare what my criteria are and if I were to be honest, very few decisions I make are based 100% on objective evidence. That would take a lot of time.
    Last edited by tjspiel; 05-14-14 at 04:23 PM.
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

  18. #93
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    Until there's objective evidence, it's just anecdotal, right?

    I base just about all of my purchases on objective evidence, unless I choose to disregard it like with my colourful bike. Because I can. Then I clearly state this I'm doing it because it's cool or neat. TransitBiker seems like a nice person and I would drop the argument if (s)he would just say I did it because I can, etc ... and not try to subjective justify that "it rides different" etc ...

    As for your last example, Rolhoff has hubs that have done 200000+ km with oil changes. Get back to me when someone has shown that an N360 has done 1000, 5000 or 10000km and then we can rationally discuss "fewer parts being better."
    Like all scientific papers, my objective study is behind a pay wall - costs a $1000 per year membership (with a minimum of 5 years) - so there
    http://treadrightly.blogspot.com/

  19. #94
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by treadtread View Post
    Like all scientific papers, my objective study is behind a pay wall - costs a $1000 per year membership (with a minimum of 5 years) - so there
    I publish mostly in OpenAccess journals for that reason

    Or pay the fee to make it OpenAccess.
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  20. #95
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    I'm done arguing with acidfast7. He either thinks far too highly of his own opinion,or he's screwing with us.

    BTW dude,did you know that you took advice on brake pads from someone with a high school diploma? That was the type of question I get from newbs at my clinic;never expected it from a PHD.

    C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport/Qualifier,Dahon Speed Pro TT,Brompton S6L

  21. #96
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    He either thinks far too highly of his own opinion,or he's screwing with us.
    or both

    http://media2.giphy.com/media/5zkLai9w9GJnW/giphy.gif

    to be fair, it's my first bike with rim brakes since the 80s.
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