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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVU_Engineer View Post

    Not sure I would trust a seat post inserted only two diameters depth at my size.
    At some point further insertion makes no difference. The industry guideline of 2.5 diameters has been in place for about a century, and mimics guidelines used in other "peg in hole" applications.

    Once you pass 2.5 diameters, the only benefit is shortening the remaining post, but there's little choice there if you want the right saddle height.

    The above addresses the "camming out" issue of posts in holes, but doesn't address the frame's needs. That's where rule No. 2 comes into play.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    For those who don't know yet, the minimum insertion for seat posts must meet 2 requirements.

    1- minimum insertion equals 2.5 diameters of the post
    2- minimum depth in the frame equals 1 diameter below the bottom of the intersecting top tube, or other seat tube brace.
    i had never thought about this and as such was one of those blindly trusting the minimum insertion marking on the seatpost. I just looked at my bikes. My mountain bike has the longest extension above the top tube. The seatpost is marked for 3 inches of insertion, but by the rules above I need 4.5 inches. Happily, the post on that bike is long and I had it inserted 7.5 inches deep. This discussion has me rethinking the idea that I could get a shorter post.

    More to the point, the 287mm post on my carbon road bike was right at the minimum insertion point and only just meets the second criteria above (assuming you mean the diameter of the post and not the outer diameter of the seat tube). I think I may look into a longer post for that bike.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
    This discussion has me rethinking the idea that I could get a shorter post.

    More to the point, the 287mm post on my carbon road bike was right at the minimum insertion point and only just meets the second criteria above (assuming you mean the diameter of the post and not the outer diameter of the seat tube). I think I may look into a longer post for that bike.
    Glad I could clarify and help prevent would would have been a mistake. Yes, the rules for insertion of pegs relate to the diameter of the peg, and not what it fits in. You probably won't gain anything with a longer post that meets the minimum guideline (unless the frame calls for it) since the rule already has a safety margin built in. But if you're upgrading anyway, going longer can't hurt (it just won't help either).

    BTW- your mtn bike is a ood example of why I think minimum post mark on the frame is important. These long tube models are the ones dealers see coming back broken and customers innocently complaining that the post was within the required depth.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
    We don't have any scientific data on THIS PARTICULAR FAILURE. We don't even have a good description of it.

    Google up photos of broken seat tubes -

    Here's the first one that came up for me - this is fatigue, down at the bottom tube where stresses are concentrated and cyclical, and pre-existing damage from welding can be present.

    Titanium


    Another:



    They're almost ALL at the welds (or lugs) - either BB or top tube joint. Hardly any aluminum ones in my results.

    Or else they're the result of obvious damage or misuse (seat post insertion length issue).

    Undamaged seat tubes simply do not fail in mid span from fatigue... aluminum or otherwise.
    this is by far the most common failure mode for metal frames -- and it's especially common for older bikes that have been ridden hard by heavier riders.

    Undamaged seat tubes simply do not fail in mid span from fatigue... aluminum or otherwise.
    agreed. someone screwed up: damage, inappropriate post insertion, or (very unlikely) pre-existing flaw.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post

    Another:



    They're almost ALL at the welds (or lugs) - either BB or top tube joint. Hardly any aluminum ones in my results.

    Or else they're the result of obvious damage or misuse (seat post insertion length issue).

    Undamaged seat tubes simply do not fail in mid span from fatigue... aluminum or otherwise.
    There's always the issue of weld strength vs. tube strength in welded tube structures. It affects all similar structures, and is one reason filet brazing is preferred with thin wall tubing.

    In the case of the seat mast above, consider the possible effects of distortion. Welding might pull the upper part of the tube forward creating a slight bend or other distortion at the weld line. Simply inserting the post stresses the area, especially if there's a forward bend. So even before it's ridden, the forward part of the tube above the weld is already under tension. Any rearward flex under load makes it worse, possibly taking it to the tensile limit, and starting the cracking process with hairline stress cracks at the weld. It's all downhill from there.

    BTW- the identical sequence is possible with steel tubing (can even be worse with some alloys) so it's not a material issue as much as a design and execution issue.

    Note that deeper post insertion will not prevent cracking, unless the post se stiff enough to fully buttress the area (most quality posts today aren't).
    Last edited by FBinNY; 05-25-14 at 03:36 PM.
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  6. #81
    Senior Member WVU_Engineer's Avatar
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    ec4389d0-e1340829396198.jpg

    When I first read the post with the picture above the picture did not appear, Does anyone else think the seat tube looks flared out slightly or is it the sticker on the back side creating an optical illusion?

    I agree that this crack would have been prevented if the seat post had have extended beyond the top bar.

    The main reason for the failure here is the cross member stiffens up the tube so that it is much stiffer once it gets to this member so it keeps the tube from flexing below it, above it is naturally weaker.

    Also when heat treated metal is welded, depending on the alloy, the heat treatment can be weakened or lost entirely. Generally good practice is to weld first and then heat treat or to do the heat treatment process over.

    What I found really interesting on examining my own bike, (sorry I dont know the correct terminology yet) there is a small plate welded on the underside of this tube here. Something like this at the seat tube would have most likely prevented that failure.

    WP_20140525_17_02_55_Pro.jpg

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVU_Engineer View Post

    I agree that this crack would have been prevented if the seat post had have extended beyond the top bar.
    It needs a most likely here. I've seen a small number of identical failures even with the post extending well below the top tube.

    Quote Originally Posted by WVU_Engineer View Post
    Also when heat treated metal is welded, depending on the alloy, the heat treatment can be weakened or lost entirely. Generally good practice is to weld first and then heat treat or to do the heat treatment process over.
    Heat treatment of welded aluminum frames after welding has been SOP from the beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by WVU_Engineer View Post
    What I found really interesting on examining my own bike, (sorry I dont know the correct terminology yet) there is a small plate welded on the underside of this tube here. Something like this at the seat tube would have most likely prevented that failure.

    WP_20140525_17_02_55_Pro.jpg
    Adding a gusset under the downtube, or near the BB is very common. It's most common on BMX bikes, both steel and aluminum, which are designed for abuse. It's assumed not to be needed for seat masts because the expectation is that the seat post serves the same purpose.
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  8. #83
    Senior Member WVU_Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Heat treatment of welded aluminum frames after welding has been SOP from the beginning.
    It is not entirely out of the question that heat treating causing stresses at joints itself, but if that is the case you will usually see a recall or a whole bunch of failures at the same spot. Just the other day at work another department got some complex parts made from 6061 heat treated to T6 and they came back warped terribly. Worst part was they didn't need heat treated to begin with, for their application they were plenty strong.

    What does BB stand for by the way, been trying to figure that out for the last couple days.
    Last edited by WVU_Engineer; 05-25-14 at 05:15 PM. Reason: bad grammar

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVU_Engineer View Post
    It is not entirely out of the question that heat treating causing stresses at joints itself, .....

    What does BB stand for by the way, been trying to figure that out for the last couple days.
    Welded bicycle frames are heat treated to normalize the stresses introduced by welding. Bonded aluminum frames usually use T-6 tubing and are not heat treated after assembly.

    Heat treatment may or may not be indicated for fabricated aluminum parts, but that's not the issue here.

    BB is shorthand for bottom bracket (either the shell, or the bearing/spindle unit) or ball bearing. Usually which is made clear by the context.
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  10. #85
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    Okay, process is just about done now. I'll answer some questions. A lot were repeated, so I'm not addressing every single instance.


    No pictures, sorry. I dropped it off at the LBS before I remembered to take any other than a single pic with my phone, in the dark, with no flash, So the picture didn't come out.


    As RPK79 guessed, it is a Jamis Hudson. DLX, with the 7 speed nexus IGH.


    Anyway, the LBS and Jamis concur that there was a weld or aluminum failure.


    Jamis said they would just send me an entirely new bike. I’m working with them/the LBS to possibly buy a different one, paying the difference between the Hudson DLX and what I might get.


    Quote Originally Posted by roadandmountain View Post
    1. which bike is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by roadandmountain View Post


    2. how much do you weigh?


    3. did you overtighten the seatpost clamp or QR lever?



    1. do you realize any material can fail?




    1. Answered above
    2. When I got the bike around Christmas 2013? 270ish. 215 now.
    3. I don’t believe so. If the seat was slipping, I would rotate it 1/4 turn and clamp again until the seat stopped slipping.
    4. Sure, but some fail more progressively than others. Steel generally bends before it breaks for example.



    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post



    Too small, I'm 6'4". Makes bike shopping difficult. Especially on the used front, sadly. Often on the budget websites like bikes direct or nashbar, too. But I thank you for the suggestion.

  11. #86
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    Okay, process is just about done now. I'll answer some questions. A lot were repeated, so I'm not addressing every single instance.


    No pictures, sorry. I dropped it off at the LBS before I remembered to take any other than a single pic with my phone, in the dark, with no flash, So the picture didn't come out.


    As RPK79 guessed, it is a Jamis Hudson. DLX, with the 7 speed nexus IGH.


    Anyway, the LBS and Jamis concur that there was a weld or aluminum failure.


    Jamis said they would just send me an entirely new bike. I’m working with them/the LBS to possibly buy a different one, paying the difference between the Hudson DLX and what I might get.

    I'm looking at the Coda line(steel hybrid), Quest line(steel road) and Aurora(light/sport touring). Haven't made any decisions yet. Maybe the commuter line. Mainly I'd like a bit more aggressive geometry than the comfort bike style Hudson. The commuter is aluminum, not steel-but it does look practical.


    Quote Originally Posted by roadandmountain View Post
    1. which bike is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by roadandmountain View Post


    2. how much do you weigh?


    3. did you overtighten the seatpost clamp or QR lever?



    1. do you realize any material can fail?



    1. Answered above
    2. When I got the bike around Christmas 2013? 270ish. 215 now.
    3. I don’t believe so. If the seat was slipping, I would rotate it 1/4 turn and clamp again until the seat stopped slipping.
    4. Sure, but some fail more progressively than others. Steel generally bends before it breaks for example.



    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post


    Too small, I'm 6'4". Makes bike shopping difficult. Especially on the used front, sadly. Often on the budget websites like bikes direct or nashbar, too. But I thank you for the suggestion.

  12. #87
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVU_Engineer View Post
    It is not entirely out of the question that heat treating causing stresses at joints itself, but if that is the case you will usually see a recall or a whole bunch of failures at the same spot. Just the other day at work another department got some complex parts made from 6061 heat treated to T6 and they came back warped terribly. Worst part was they didn't need heat treated to begin with, for their application they were plenty strong.

    What does BB stand for by the way, been trying to figure that out for the last couple days.
    Fuji recently (2012) had to recall a huge number of their low step bikes due to possible heat related weakness on the single tube. Not all were affected but the point remains that manufacturing errors can weaken an otherwise sound frame design.

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  13. #88
    Senior Member WVU_Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    Fuji recently (2012) had to recall a huge number of their low step bikes due to possible heat related weakness on the single tube. Not all were affected but the point remains that manufacturing errors can weaken an otherwise sound frame design.

    - Andy

    It doesn't surprise me, welds are very tricky and actually aren't used in very many aerospace applications for that very reason. The simple act of the weld cooling induces stress in it due to it being fixed in position and it wanting to shrink. There is a lot of science behind welding, but some is simply trial, test, and hope for no error.

  14. #89
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    Alloys are heat treated before they are welded for stiffness and added strength. Gussets reinforce critical stress points. 6061 T aluminum has nothing in common with beer can aluminum. Its not fragile and its light, strong and very durable. You can get a good riding bicycle from the material if its made correctly. I have an aluminum bike and the ride isn't all that different from the ride on a good steel bicycle.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    Alloys are heat treated before they are welded for stiffness and added strength. Gussets reinforce critical stress points. 6061 T aluminum has nothing in common with beer can aluminum. Its not fragile and its light, strong and very durable. You can get a good riding bicycle from the material if its made correctly. I have an aluminum bike and the ride isn't all that different from the ride on a good steel bicycle.
    The specific alloy is 6061 T6. Plain 6061 is used for making cans & aircraft parts, boat hulls etc. 6061 T6 is used in a few mission critical applications in the military & aerospace, and its what they make bike frames out of. Its specific alloy mixture & forging processes is what ultimately determines its fatigue life.

    I had a steel cruiser and an ALU cruiser, the steel one lasted 3 years before starting to rust & develop hairline cracks on 2 of the welds, the alu one lasted 12 years & the frame is still good just needs new everything else. The steel one was also MUCH heavier, even heavier than my full suspension mountain bike.

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  16. #91
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    Best process, as used by big companies , whole frame is Normalized to reduce the stresses introduced in the aluminum welding,

    then the whole frame is re Heat treated. ..


    Some early Cannondales were warped by the normalizing, but if done held in an alignment jig, the bike was still rideable..
    Functionally straight, as the jig kept it right while heated
    Last edited by fietsbob; 05-31-14 at 01:02 PM.

  17. #92
    not a role model JeffS's Avatar
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    It's telling that after a "catastrophic" failure, the OP goes out in search of another "cheap" product to replace it with, never considering that cheap might be what got him here in the first place.

    ---

    On the bright side, look at all these people who got a chance to pretend that they know something about metallurgy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffS View Post
    It's telling that after a "catastrophic" failure, the OP goes out in search of another "cheap" product to replace it with, never considering that cheap might be what got him here in the first place.

    ---

    On the bright side, look at all these people who got a chance to pretend that they know something about metallurgy.
    This is easily the best post in this thread. Hilarious.

  19. #94
    Senior Member gregjones's Avatar
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    All of this has me convinced that the material is irrelevant...the cause of the failure was due to the object being a bike. If one is so concerned of such a small chance happening as a frame failure I would recommend a transit pass. It is obvious that there is no safe material yet developed.

    I just bought a twelve year old aluminium frame and the mail just ran. I hope to have more parts in today so I can finish and go for a ride.
    Disclaimer: It's just an opinion that I have. It works for me. I am not the forum "Police (Of Anything)". Others may disagree. And....YMMV.
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  20. #95
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffS View Post
    It's telling that after a "catastrophic" failure, the OP goes out in search of another "cheap" product to replace it with, never considering that cheap might be what got him here in the first place.

    ---

    On the bright side, look at all these people who got a chance to pretend that they know something about metallurgy.
    Or that took the time to care about the safety of a fellow human being.

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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffS View Post

    ---On the bright side, look at all these people who got a chance to pretend that they know something about metallurgy.
    Some, didn't have to pretend.

    OTOH- it's easier to be a smartass on a forum than to actually try to help people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffS View Post
    It's telling that after a "catastrophic" failure, the OP goes out in search of another "cheap" product to replace it with, never considering that cheap might be what got him here in the first place.
    Your budget is your budget.

    edit: Anyway, sure, I'm looking at entry level or just above that. But I'm sure we could both bring up a number of examples where a bike with cheap components is 500 and the upgraded components are 1500 or whatever, for the same frame. So price by itself shouldn't be an indicator of frame quality. I'm also not buying $150 department store bikes here.

  23. #98
    Senior Member wbuttry's Avatar
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    And to spend 400 to 1000 dollars is considered a cheap bike what the hell do you ride jeff a freaking gold nugget huh smart ass. Some of us cant afford a bike over a thousand dollars or do we want to spend that much I got about 600 in my tour easy so I think I am doing pretty dam good ...
    10 mph journey

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    Quote Originally Posted by wbuttry View Post
    And to spend 400 to 1000 dollars is considered a cheap bike what the hell do you ride jeff a freaking gold nugget huh smart ass. Some of us cant afford a bike over a thousand dollars or do we want to spend that much I got about 600 in my tour easy so I think I am doing pretty dam good ...
    Exactly......

    Everyone has their own interests and a forum for people riding to and from work, school, park, or the store is no place to expect crazy geeked out techno nuts on a cost-no-object frenzy to hang out. It's a bike forum for the everyman where we admire a ridden Mongoose more than a dusty Colnago.

    Hell, even on the Mandolin Forum we seldom snub members who spend less than $25 on a pick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregjones View Post
    Exactly......

    Everyone has their own interests and a forum for people riding to and from work, school, park, or the store is no place to expect crazy geeked out techno nuts on a cost-no-object frenzy to hang out. It's a bike forum for the everyman where we admire a ridden Mongoose more than a dusty Colnago.

    Hell, even on the Mandolin Forum we seldom snub members who spend less than $25 on a pick.
    Sticker shock from different hobbies always amuses me. I ask my dad, 'why the hell do you need a 3k bike you ride 20 minutes at a time?'

    Then he asks me, aghast, 'Look. Is there really a difference in a $50 and $2000 viola bow?'

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