Cheap steel bikes? Just had a catastrophic aluminum breakage.
05-22-14, 01:21 PM
#27
Banned.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Not sure why this is important since the cause here is certainly not fatigue.
But ALL fatigue starts with a crack. Steel frames with cracks will absolutely fatigue. Aluminum's lack of a fatigue limit means that the cracks can appear without previously being damaged - it doesn't mean it'll be a certain failure at an unsuspecting time.
But ALL fatigue starts with a crack. Steel frames with cracks will absolutely fatigue. Aluminum's lack of a fatigue limit means that the cracks can appear without previously being damaged - it doesn't mean it'll be a certain failure at an unsuspecting time.
In regards to this particular bicycle, there's no possible way for us to determine the direct cause of the OP's frame failure. All we can do at this point is speculate and discuss possibilities. The scientific data suggests that his frame failure was most likely, due to fatigue. How you can state unequivocally for certain, that it was not, is beyond my comprehension. Speculation always favors science, not anecdotal testimony.
05-22-14, 02:05 PM
#28
It's MY mountain
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 10,002
Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4338 Post(s)
Liked 2,981 Times
in
1,617 Posts
In regards to this particular bicycle, there's no possible way for us to determine the direct cause of the OP's frame failure. All we can do at this point is speculate and discuss possibilities. The scientific data suggests that his frame failure was most likely, due to fatigue. How you can state unequivocally for certain, that it was not, is beyond my comprehension. Speculation always favors science, not anecdotal testimony.
We don't have any scientific data in this case; we have one anecdotal story.
We have one description of one guy's seat tube that broke in an area that doesn't see the typical kind of cyclical stresses required for fatigue failure, and in an area where the rare failure is almost always due to damage. We also have the description of a "clean break", which is also not a characteristic of fatigue.
Now if the OP is somehow especially hard on seat tubes, then steel would probably be a better choice for him anyway, but that's because it can handle more damage before it weakens.
05-22-14, 02:24 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 8,101
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times
in
13 Posts
In regards to this particular bicycle, there's no possible way for us to determine the direct cause of the OP's frame failure. All we can do at this point is speculate and discuss possibilities. The scientific data suggests that his frame failure was most likely, due to fatigue. How you can state unequivocally for certain, that it was not, is beyond my comprehension. Speculation always favors science, not anecdotal testimony.
05-22-14, 02:27 PM
#31
Banned.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
We don't have any scientific data in this case; we have one anecdotal story.
We have one description of one guy's seat tube that broke in an area that doesn't see the typical kind of cyclical stresses required for fatigue failure, and in an area where the rare failure is almost always due to damage. We also have the description of a "clean break", which is also not a characteristic of fatigue.
Now if the OP is somehow especially hard on seat tubes, then steel would probably be a better choice for him anyway, but that's because it can handle more damage before it weakens.
We have one description of one guy's seat tube that broke in an area that doesn't see the typical kind of cyclical stresses required for fatigue failure, and in an area where the rare failure is almost always due to damage. We also have the description of a "clean break", which is also not a characteristic of fatigue.
Now if the OP is somehow especially hard on seat tubes, then steel would probably be a better choice for him anyway, but that's because it can handle more damage before it weakens.
PS.
Cyclical stress comes in the form of vibrations. The entire bicycle frame vibrates.
Last edited by WestPablo; 05-22-14 at 02:31 PM.
05-22-14, 02:54 PM
#33
It's MY mountain
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 10,002
Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4338 Post(s)
Liked 2,981 Times
in
1,617 Posts
We don't have any scientific data on THIS PARTICULAR FAILURE. We don't even have a good description of it.
Google up photos of broken seat tubes -
Here's the first one that came up for me - this is fatigue, down at the bottom tube where stresses are concentrated and cyclical, and pre-existing damage from welding can be present.
Titanium
Another:
They're almost ALL at the welds (or lugs) - either BB or top tube joint. Hardly any aluminum ones in my results.
Or else they're the result of obvious damage or misuse (seat post insertion length issue).
Undamaged seat tubes simply do not fail in mid span from fatigue... aluminum or otherwise.
Google up photos of broken seat tubes -
Here's the first one that came up for me - this is fatigue, down at the bottom tube where stresses are concentrated and cyclical, and pre-existing damage from welding can be present.
Titanium
Another:
They're almost ALL at the welds (or lugs) - either BB or top tube joint. Hardly any aluminum ones in my results.
Or else they're the result of obvious damage or misuse (seat post insertion length issue).
Undamaged seat tubes simply do not fail in mid span from fatigue... aluminum or otherwise.
Last edited by DiabloScott; 05-22-14 at 04:03 PM.
05-22-14, 02:55 PM
#34
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
1. which bike is it?
2. how much do you weigh?
3. did you overtighten the seatpost clamp or QR lever?
4. do you realize any material can fail?
2. how much do you weigh?
3. did you overtighten the seatpost clamp or QR lever?
4. do you realize any material can fail?
So, like the subject says: what are some cheap($400-1000) steel framed bike?
Would prefer a complete bike, but a build isn't totally out of the question.
I only have one bike, a comfort bike that I bought for myself last Christmas. And the seat tube just broke cleanly, right above where the seat stays meet it.
It's an alarming experience, I don't recommend it.
So if decided: no more aluminum bikes. I want the more forgiving failure quality of steel.
I'm only aware of Jamis' steel bikes-they have a steel hybrid, and a steel road bike line. What other manufacturers make steel bikes these days?
I know to look at touring bikes, but I'm wondering if anything else is out there.
Thanks!
Would prefer a complete bike, but a build isn't totally out of the question.
I only have one bike, a comfort bike that I bought for myself last Christmas. And the seat tube just broke cleanly, right above where the seat stays meet it.
It's an alarming experience, I don't recommend it.
So if decided: no more aluminum bikes. I want the more forgiving failure quality of steel.
I'm only aware of Jamis' steel bikes-they have a steel hybrid, and a steel road bike line. What other manufacturers make steel bikes these days?
I know to look at touring bikes, but I'm wondering if anything else is out there.
Thanks!
05-22-14, 03:22 PM
#35
Banned.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
We don't have any scientific data on THIS PARTICULAR FAILURE. We don't even have a good description of it.
Google up photos of broken seat tubes -
Here's the first one that came up for me - this is fatigue, down at the bottom tube where stresses are concentrated and cyclical, and pre-existing damage from welding can be present.
Another:
They're almost ALL at the welds (or lugs) - either BB or top tube joint. Hardly any aluminum ones in my results.
Or else they're the result of obvious damage or misuse (seat post insertion length issue).
Undamaged seat tubes simply do not fail in mid span from fatigue... aluminum or otherwise.
Google up photos of broken seat tubes -
Here's the first one that came up for me - this is fatigue, down at the bottom tube where stresses are concentrated and cyclical, and pre-existing damage from welding can be present.
Another:
They're almost ALL at the welds (or lugs) - either BB or top tube joint. Hardly any aluminum ones in my results.
Or else they're the result of obvious damage or misuse (seat post insertion length issue).
Undamaged seat tubes simply do not fail in mid span from fatigue... aluminum or otherwise.
Thank you!
05-22-14, 03:30 PM
#36
Senior Member
I had no idea they weren't making steel bikes anymore! My trusty 1996 GT Outpost, with a zillion miles on it, is going to fail me SOME day. Does this mean my next bike is going to have to be aluminum?
05-22-14, 04:14 PM
#38
Prefers Cicero
05-22-14, 04:16 PM
#39
DancesWithSUVs
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Griffin Cycle Bethesda,MD
Posts: 6,983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
That's all BS. Ti is stronger than steel,rides just as well,and can be about as light as alum.
"I still hold that a modern steel bike built with hand-made cross-three wheels and good tires inflated to a maximum of 110 psi remains the gold standard. No other bike will ride as well."
__________________
C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport,Dahon Speed Pro TT,Brompton S6L/S2E-X
C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport,Dahon Speed Pro TT,Brompton S6L/S2E-X
05-22-14, 05:08 PM
#40
Banned.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
"Titanium is not as strong as steel and it is not as light as aluminum. The result is a frame that has a better ride than aluminum, but weighs more. It doesn't ride as well as steel, but it is lighter."
That's all BS. Ti is stronger than steel,rides just as well,and can be about as light as alum.
"I still hold that a modern steel bike built with hand-made cross-three wheels and good tires inflated to a maximum of 110 psi remains the gold standard. No other bike will ride as well."
That's all BS. Ti is stronger than steel,rides just as well,and can be about as light as alum.
"I still hold that a modern steel bike built with hand-made cross-three wheels and good tires inflated to a maximum of 110 psi remains the gold standard. No other bike will ride as well."
I guess you're right! That crap about Ti is totally BS! Sorry about that!
However, I must thank you for the correction...
Thanks, Dynaryder!
05-22-14, 05:17 PM
#41
contiuniously variable
If it broke clean it must have been improperly welded or improperly formed into a tube at the factory. I have seen alu and steel get shear breaks due to improper cooling, including 3 inch thick bar and pipes with quarter inch wall thickness that had just been installed or mid-installation.
I am guessing it is a forming defect from factory, not welding, and not seat mount height.
- Andy
I am guessing it is a forming defect from factory, not welding, and not seat mount height.
- Andy
05-22-14, 05:47 PM
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: 6367 km away from the center of the Earth
Posts: 1,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
The Wikipedia graphic is just plain wrong. Fatigue life for carbon fiber is nearly infinite unless it is damaged. Also, "ride quality" is a pretty subjective quantity and depends more on the construction than the material used. It looks like a promo graphic for a titanium bike frame company.
Yep. I chose communication over science. Not much we can extract from the over simplified chart. (nor from the OP case neither)
I have a graph just for you
The fatigue life for carbon fiber isn't infinite but roughly just higher. (depends on which one though)
Even then there is lots of factors to take into account. What about the type of process used, build quality, frame design, under which load the bike is and where, how old the bike is (a 1976 steel bike vs a 2012 carbon bike), freeze-thaw cycle, riding type, corrosion resistance, shocks/cracks...
Probably the reason why in real life, it seems that there is some catastrophic failures on the carbon fiber side as well. I was reading a thread not long ago that was asking a good question: why isn't much touring bikes made of carbon fiber?
I was reading something recently about graphene that supposedly is better than anything else on the market (carbon nanotubes included) but isn't in real life due to imperfections than come with the current process used.
https://news.rice.edu/2014/04/29/grap...-weakest-link/
Last edited by erig007; 05-22-14 at 07:18 PM.
05-22-14, 06:38 PM
#44
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times
in
1,286 Posts
I have 2 steel framed bikes and one aluminium...My aluminium MTB has been beaten to death and it just keeps coming back to life.
05-22-14, 08:07 PM
#45
always rides with luggage
You guys are making me flash back to my metallurgy days. STOP IT.
__________________
--Ben
2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
Non-Bike hardware: MX Linux / BunsenLabs Linux / Raspbian / Mac OS 10.6 / Android 7
--Ben
2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
Non-Bike hardware: MX Linux / BunsenLabs Linux / Raspbian / Mac OS 10.6 / Android 7
05-22-14, 08:59 PM
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Minnesota and Southern California
Posts: 628
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac (carbon), Specialized Roubaix (carbon, wifey), Raleigh Super Course (my favorite), and 2 Centurion project bikes.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
The Wikipedia graphic is just plain wrong. Fatigue life for carbon fiber is nearly infinite unless it is damaged. Also, "ride quality" is a pretty subjective quantity and depends more on the construction than the material used. It looks like a promo graphic for a titanium bike frame company.
on 1 1/4" Shrader-valved tires
will ride like a dream.
Heh.
05-22-14, 09:17 PM
#47
contiuniously variable
05-22-14, 09:45 PM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Buffalo New York
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
So I agree about the user being at fault and not the frame. but that doesnt really matter any more does it.
check this out, steel frame, carbon fork, 105
Save Up To 60% Off Pro Level Steel Road Bikes | Commuting | Commuter Bikes | Motobecane Gran Premio PRO
check this out, steel frame, carbon fork, 105
Save Up To 60% Off Pro Level Steel Road Bikes | Commuting | Commuter Bikes | Motobecane Gran Premio PRO
__________________
2010 Kestrel RT900SL, 800k carbon, chorus/record, speedplay, zonda
2000 litespeed Unicoi Ti, XTR,XT, Campy crank, time atac, carbon forks
2010 Kestrel RT900SL, 800k carbon, chorus/record, speedplay, zonda
2000 litespeed Unicoi Ti, XTR,XT, Campy crank, time atac, carbon forks
05-22-14, 10:17 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
So, like the subject says: what are some cheap($400-1000) steel framed bike?
Would prefer a complete bike, but a build isn't totally out of the question.
I only have one bike, a comfort bike that I bought for myself last Christmas. And the seat tube just broke cleanly, right above where the seat stays meet it.
It's an alarming experience, I don't recommend it.
So if decided: no more aluminum bikes. I want the more forgiving failure quality of steel.
I'm only aware of Jamis' steel bikes-they have a steel hybrid, and a steel road bike line. What other manufacturers make steel bikes these days?
I know to look at touring bikes, but I'm wondering if anything else is out there.
Thanks!
Would prefer a complete bike, but a build isn't totally out of the question.
I only have one bike, a comfort bike that I bought for myself last Christmas. And the seat tube just broke cleanly, right above where the seat stays meet it.
It's an alarming experience, I don't recommend it.
So if decided: no more aluminum bikes. I want the more forgiving failure quality of steel.
I'm only aware of Jamis' steel bikes-they have a steel hybrid, and a steel road bike line. What other manufacturers make steel bikes these days?
I know to look at touring bikes, but I'm wondering if anything else is out there.
Thanks!