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  1. #51
    contiuniously variable TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    It would be difficult to deny the superior popularity of the Flying Pigeon. Someone should import a version for the American market.
    I would like to see their 3 model range in every bike shop. Drum or roller brakes, front brake with integral dyno, drive could come in single speed, 2x7, or 3/7 speed geared hub. Not re-inventing the wheel as these people keep doing every so often with designs like the one in the original post, and i think it would work.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  2. #52
    contiuniously variable TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Well,since I'm the one who actually has to crank up the hills to get home,it's my definition that counts.
    Touche...

    - Andy
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    What about when the poles shift?

    - Andy
    It's not on the prototype, but we're working on using the planetary pole shifts instead of the generator bottle to power the lights. I can reveal that we're partnering with Lucas on the lighting and electrical system, which should offer reliability equal to the periodical nature of the pole shifts.

  4. #54
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Well,since I'm the one who actually has to crank up the hills to get home,it's my definition that counts.
    I went for a 20 mile ride on the new recumbent last night and dropped in and out of the river valley a few times to see where I am at with climbing... hills that are no challenge on a standard bike are a little more work and slower going on the 'bent as your weight bias is to the rear and because you can't stand up.

    This would be a deal killer for people in some locations.

    That being said I still passed some cyclists on climbs who were having a much harder time and know there are a few hills here that would require lower gearing.

  5. #55
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    I would like to see their 3 model range in every bike shop. Drum or roller brakes, front brake with integral dyno, drive could come in single speed, 2x7, or 3/7 speed geared hub. Not re-inventing the wheel as these people keep doing every so often with designs like the one in the original post, and i think it would work.

    - Andy
    They would mostly sit on the shop floor gathering dust. As someone who actually works at a bike shop: we do stock and sell city bikes, but the volumes are relatively low. The most popular models, by far, are hybrids. That includes people who intend to commute by bike. That's what most people around here want. It's not because we have a particular interest in pushing hybrids over city bikes, people generally prefer them and are most interested in them. That's the reality of the US market.

    That said, it also does work out better for most shops if commuters buy hybrids and accessorize them. Only the most profitable bike shops in the country make any profit on bicycle sales - at most shops, bicycle margins do not account for their share of shop expenses. Even where they do, it's by the slimmest of margins. Unfortunately, a bike that comes with fenders, racks and baskets pre-installed is probably a money-losing sale for most bike shops.

  6. #56
    contiuniously variable TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    They would mostly sit on the shop floor gathering dust. As someone who actually works at a bike shop: we do stock and sell city bikes, but the volumes are relatively low. The most popular models, by far, are hybrids. That includes people who intend to commute by bike. That's what most people around here want. It's not because we have a particular interest in pushing hybrids over city bikes, people generally prefer them and are most interested in them. That's the reality of the US market.

    That said, it also does work out better for most shops if commuters buy hybrids and accessorize them. Only the most profitable bike shops in the country make any profit on bicycle sales - at most shops, bicycle margins do not account for their share of shop expenses. Even where they do, it's by the slimmest of margins. Unfortunately, a bike that comes with fenders, racks and baskets pre-installed is probably a money-losing sale for most bike shops.
    Yes, i'm well aware of how all the economics work. It's not an easy thing to operate a bike shop in the US these days. With people being more environmentally aware than ever, and people being cost conscious, and the trend of doing things & purchasing locally & so on is definitely a good thing & i hope it does nothing but grow.

    On the point of hybrids.... I think we'll end up talking about what the US did really from ww1 onwards, in terms of general business practices, and political atmosphere. We have no sense of solidarity here. We were not bombed every day for months. We were not invaded and had our wives and daughters raped and our brothers shot in their beds by invading armies. We don't realize that what we do profoundly and absolutely affects everyone else, that the water a store stocks in maine can affect a farmer in california. There is a huge disconnect between cause and effect geographically. I feel that if we collectively had the mind to more have the interest of the country as a whole higher on our lit of priorities, we would not be where we are today, we would be in a better place. Town/city bike use takes a certain mentality that is largely lacking here. I feel personally that if we had more common sense guided policies, and more compassion guided policies as most other nations do (not saying they are perfect), we would have a huge market for them, and still have that same number of hybrid sales.

    The key issue here NOW (as we cannot go back in time) is lack of a unified, integrated, and sustainable transportation infrastructure AND a sustainable way to power, build, and maintain such a thing if it does come to be. I see well built and not extremely expensive city/town bikes as a way to get to that place, and all of these "this bike is the answer" designs as evolutionary dead ends that showcase exactly what NOT to do. Instead of getting nerdy and passionate about ultimate this and that, we should be nerdy and passionate about practical long term solutions that give is an integrated sustainable transport infrastructure. And you know, you might just find it a lot easier to own a bike shop as a result, and that plugs into employment and people with skill sets and neighborhood pride and the rising tide lifts all boats kinda thing.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  7. #57
    contiuniously variable TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
    It's not on the prototype, but we're working on using the planetary pole shifts instead of the generator bottle to power the lights. I can reveal that we're partnering with Lucas on the lighting and electrical system, which should offer reliability equal to the periodical nature of the pole shifts.
    But can it make the kessel run in under 12 parsecs?

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  8. #58
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Needs an Apple logo and the modifier "elegant" added to its moniker = instant market.
    Exactly, "i"-like-to-bike...

    One thing I noticed was the dish-mop style 'fender'. Does this actually work?

  9. #59
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmac View Post
    Exactly, "i"-like-to-bike...

    One thing I noticed was the dish-mop style 'fender'. Does this actually work?
    Doesn't matter.
    All it needs is to call the fender thing an "app" and it is another reason to stand in line to buy it.

  10. #60
    Passista Reynolds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
    I've asked the judges if they'll take a late entry. I've worked with a secret factory staffed by merry men in Nottingham to get our prototype ready quickly.

    Attachment 396327

    First off we're going to win on style (seems to be what's important in this case). Our current prototype is dripping with steampunk bling. But look at these functional innovations:

    Three (count'em, THREE) full speeds.

    Special full coverage metal things to keep road spray and grit at bay (we're calling them Mudgards, since it seems Fenders is taken by some electronical guitar company). Wait till you try these!

    Classic North Road handlebar shape made famous by Rivendell.

    Attachment flange for lights or ipod or cager-rager short-range stink bomb launcher on stem.

    New braking technology that reminds you to slow down in the rain by making it hard for you to slow down in the rain (it's a zen thing!)

    Instead of a fancy pull out rear rack, we are using a new mechanism to allow the attachment of various size bags to right to the seat. No rack needed at all.
    +1. I'd add dyno lights to make it perfect.

  11. #61
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    Seems to me the definitive comment on this "project" was made last week:

    Bike Snob NYC: Just when you think nobody can improve the bicycle, someone proves you right.

  12. #62
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
    Seems to me the definitive comment on this "project" was made last week:

    Bike Snob NYC: Just when you think nobody can improve the bicycle, someone proves you right.
    Excellent!

  13. #63
    contiuniously variable TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Doesn't matter.
    All it needs is to call the fender thing an "app" and it is another reason to stand in line to buy it.


    You know, some people actually like to have useful technology. Not sure what you're hoping to accomplish by comparing a dead end bike design to an endlessly useful device other than looking like a curmudgeon..

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  14. #64
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    I think some of them are kinda nifty. Yes, a few look downright awful, but I think the utility features on some are cool.
    I think some of y'all need to relax and embrace design and innovation, while at the same time looking at us in your rear view mirror on your $6000 carbon bike flying through the air completely above the fray.

    wait, who am i kidding. you don't use mirrors. too weighty.
    Twitter@theSurlyBiker

  15. #65
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    Folks ride differently and have different needs and desires. I get that. I'm having fun with it comparing the contest entries with a Churchillian idea of the ultimate urban bike and finding it wanting, but in cold fact these may be less practical for many kinds of urban riders than this "outdated" design. Now that's a shame.

    Most of them look like visual representations of a bicycle: a high end, aesthetically pleasing expression of the "Bicycle Shaped Object" we object to in department store bikes. They look like cool bikes, but they don't appear to function well as urban bikes.

  16. #66
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    The key issue here NOW (as we cannot go back in time) is lack of a unified, integrated, and sustainable transportation infrastructure AND a sustainable way to power, build, and maintain such a thing if it does come to be. I see well built and not extremely expensive city/town bikes as a way to get to that place, and all of these "this bike is the answer" designs as evolutionary dead ends that showcase exactly what NOT to do. Instead of getting nerdy and passionate about ultimate this and that, we should be nerdy and passionate about practical long term solutions that give is an integrated sustainable transport infrastructure. And you know, you might just find it a lot easier to own a bike shop as a result, and that plugs into employment and people with skill sets and neighborhood pride and the rising tide lifts all boats kinda thing.

    - Andy
    I couldn't agree more with this paragraph, that's exactly how I see this design challenge. It's magical thinking in a world where every single niche in society is looking for its "iPhone moment." If you want to change the world, the thinking goes, you just need to build an amazing product that that everyone gets really excited about and goes out and buys! They overlook that, while the iPhone was transformative in a certain specific way, that it didn't emerge in a vacuum. The infrastructure to support that product was in the making for something like 30 years, so that there were voice and data cellular networks to carry radio signals from the iPhone to the rest of the network and back again. In terms of transportation infrastructure to support a bicycle equivalent to the iPhone, we're not in 2007, we're in the mid 1980's with huge Motorola brick phones. At best. An iPhone in 1986 would've been mostly useless. And that's the fate of these bikes in the U.S. today.

  17. #67
    contiuniously variable TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    I couldn't agree more with this paragraph, that's exactly how I see this design challenge. It's magical thinking in a world where every single niche in society is looking for its "iPhone moment." If you want to change the world, the thinking goes, you just need to build an amazing product that that everyone gets really excited about and goes out and buys! They overlook that, while the iPhone was transformative in a certain specific way, that it didn't emerge in a vacuum. The infrastructure to support that product was in the making for something like 30 years, so that there were voice and data cellular networks to carry radio signals from the iPhone to the rest of the network and back again. In terms of transportation infrastructure to support a bicycle equivalent to the iPhone, we're not in 2007, we're in the mid 1980's with huge Motorola brick phones. At best. An iPhone in 1986 would've been mostly useless. And that's the fate of these bikes in the U.S. today.
    You hit the nail on the head. Some of these designs are definitely ahead of their time, and would work in some future where cyclists gain parity in the mass mindset of the general public. However, a lot of these designs are more proof of concept vs a useable end product. The fender is a good example. A fender like that is useless. You could attach a wider tube with a fender that deploys like a portable movie screen. You pull it out, lock it in place (a T shape), and then the top of the T is where a roll of material sits, and you roll it out and lock the unrolled sheet of material back to the base of the T. I think that kind of technology has a bigger future than what this bike has shown.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  18. #68
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    For many years this has been regarded as the best off the peg city bicycle made...


  19. #69
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    For many years this has been regarded as the best off the peg city bicycle made...
    Really? Sez who? You and the Committee of One? Or a consensus of the LBS' that sell them in the U.S.?

  20. #70
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Really? Sez who? You and the Committee of One? Or a consensus of the LBS' that sell them in the U.S.?
    Joe Breeze is a utilitarian cyclist and while he ran Breezer decided that someone needed to market a fully equipped city bike which gives a nod to the past with it's full fenders, chaincase, and generator lighting and coupled that with an 8 speed internal hub to give a nice range of gearing.

    One should note that, at the time there were very few bicycles available on this side of the pond that came this well equipped with a design that specifically designed for urban utility.

    Breeze has long advocated for improved cycling infrastructure and started developing his own line of ergonomically comfortable bicycles like the Breezer Uptown which were inspired by the European city bicycles you yourself seem to prefer.

    It was industry reviewers and consumers that have made this a very successful bicycle... consumers who did not want to race anyone but wanted a comfortable, well equipped bicycle at a good price.

    My wife's Breezer is 8 years old and was ridden daily in Portland and now lives here in the far frozen north and has shown itself to be an excellent winter bicycle with the addition of studded tyres... the enclosed chaincase means that the required maintenance on the drivetrain is minimal.

    If I was to start selling a model of bicycle through my shop the Breezer would top my list and have talked to Joe about this since distribution of these bicycles here is lacking and many people we meet who see this bicycle wants to know where it came from and how they can get one.

  21. #71
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    Joe Breeze is a utilitarian cyclist and while he ran Breezer decided that someone needed to market a fully equipped city bike which gives a nod to the past with it's full fenders, chaincase, and generator lighting and coupled that with an 8 speed internal hub to give a nice range of gearing.

    One should note that, at the time there were very few bicycles available on this side of the pond that came this well equipped with a design that specifically designed for urban utility.

    Breeze has long advocated for improved cycling infrastructure and started developing his own line of ergonomically comfortable bicycles like the Breezer Uptown which were inspired by the European city bicycles you yourself seem to prefer.

    It was industry reviewers and consumers that have made this a very successful bicycle... consumers who did not want to race anyone but wanted a comfortable, well equipped bicycle at a good price.

    My wife's Breezer is 8 years old and was ridden daily in Portland and now lives here in the far frozen north and has shown itself to be an excellent winter bicycle with the addition of studded tyres... the enclosed chaincase means that the required maintenance on the drivetrain is minimal.

    If I was to start selling a model of bicycle through my shop the Breezer would top my list and have talked to Joe about this since distribution of these bicycles here is lacking and many people we meet who see this bicycle wants to know where it came from and how they can get one.
    I am in 100% agreement with you that the Breezer seems to be a fine choice for a city bike and Joe Breeze may be a wonderful person.
    My only objection is to your use of your use of the phrase "has been regarded as the best off the peg city bicycle made..." to describe it. I guess it all depends how you want to define "regarded" as well as "best off the peg city bicycle made."

    As you point out, its distribution is spotty and scarce; an unavailable bike is not "off the peg" in my opinion. Also, possibly your regard for "best" may require a price not considered qualifier.

  22. #72
    Senior Member italktocats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    To you. We have similar bikeshare bikes here in DC. They suck on our hills. I've also worked on Euro bikes at my clinic,and anything that requires more than one tool and parts removal to remove the rear wheel is all fail.

    I dropped somebody on a bikeshare cranking up Wisc Ave today. I was on my Big Dummy with a load of groceries,including 3 12pks of soda. I'll stick with my 3x derailleur drivetrains.
    remove the rear wheel?


    why? you should ride it...

  23. #73
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by italktocats View Post
    why? you should ride it...
    What do you do when you get a flat?

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  24. #74
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    I am in 100% agreement with you that the Breezer seems to be a fine choice for a city bike and Joe Breeze may be a wonderful person.
    My only objection is to your use of your use of the phrase "has been regarded as the best off the peg city bicycle made..." to describe it. I guess it all depends how you want to define "regarded" as well as "best off the peg city bicycle made."

    As you point out, its distribution is spotty and scarce; an unavailable bike is not "off the peg" in my opinion. Also, possibly your regard for "best" may require a price not considered qualifier.
    Distribution in Canada is not what it should be... seems that distribution in the U.S. is much better.

    With an m.s.r.p. of just under $900.00 it is a very good value.

  25. #75
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