spare_wheel

1. People who ride clipless and are afraid of falling over should, IMO, learn how to track stand/sit. Balancing a bike for a few minutes is at best an intermediate-level skill. I'm personally far more afraid of tripping while walking than I am of falling over due to a sudden stop.
2. Unclipping should be practiced until it becomes motor memory. Even a modest amount of practice should enable someone to unclip about as quickly as it takes them to lift their foot off a platform pedal.

spare_wheel

ever heard of sh56 multi-directional cleats?

i've hit pavement/ice at speed over a dozen times and not once did being clipped in have any effect on the outcome.

yankeefan

That's exactly my point! Its something than can be learned! The sad thing is that most people never spend enough time trying to learn it. They're comfortable with just being able to unclip and come to a gradual stop. Unclipping "on the fly" is an entirely different skill that can also be learned. Its not the pedal's fault that you didn't invest time into learning it. Unless you're living in an hectic place like NYC, its not a skill that you'd be using very often so for many people there isn't much incentive to learn. It doesn't make you a bad rider or anything, you just need to let go of this idea that clipless pedals hinder your responsiveness due to their intrinsic design.

loky1179

I'm sure he'd still have fallen down if he were on platforms. I have it on good authority that is is NO harder to put your foot down when clipped in vs not being clipped in!!

yankeefan

+1

Most riders can unclip without any hassle if altered prior to coming to a stop (at least a 2 second warning). Its an entirely different skill when you're about to hit the deck and you need to put your foot down without thinking "okay, I need to unclip". It needs to instantaneous and reflexive. I've had occasions where I lost balance while track standing (sometimes I don't line up my bike properly or I'm in the wrong gear) and was able to unclip and put my foot down midway through my fall.

yankeefan

He saw all the riders in front of him stop well in advance and he seemed to stay upright for a few seconds before tumbling over. It seems to me like a track stand gone wrong rather than him forgetting to unclip

TransitBiker

This is a thread about encounters with black ice and how to minimize risk, not pedal type. Thanks!

I had no idea i was on ice or i would have stopped and walked or found an alternate route. It is in a spot on a hill where ice has formed on the MUP and on the roadway causing incidents for both MUP users and motorists. The creek & nearby wooded area of the park seems to create a chilling thermal zone that is the culprit... In any case... afterwards i got a ride, and it dawned on me by being a passenger 2 things: 1. there was a huge ass-ton of black ice all over everywhere on the roads driveways, sidewalks, literally just everywhere on lightly used parts of pavement or concrete and 2. i would have probably gone down the same spot a lot faster after the oscars party, and that would probably have caused damage to the bike. I'm not too worried about me... i know i'm not invincible but i have thick bones and my brain tends to block pain enough to function after an incident, but my bike would have definitely gotten some kind of damage. I had my bags on, so that probably helped, but if i were going fast i could have ended up KIA'ing the bag on the impact side, bending the rack, crunking the shifter, grip, seat etc on the impact side..... something i cannot afford both figuratively and literally to have happen.

But yea, having a second bike that isnt my primary cargo & grocery carrying vehicle which can be fitted for the season is definitely on my list of must-haves, but till then and till i get money for studded tires, i'll just have to be a bit more vigilant.

P.S. I will say this (and only this) about pedal type.... in the speed of this incident, i didnt even have time to put a foot down off platform pedals, bike just slipped out to the left and suddenly i was on the ground. Pedal type NOT RELEVANT.

- Andy

Sixty Fiver

Must be begging for it although the fixed gear drivetrain warrants foot retention for back braking while the Nokian tyres (296 studs per) ensure that I can track stand on a freshly cleared skating rink.



My derailleur equipped winter bike and 3 speed winter bike have Marathon winter tyres and platforms.

erig007

The same thing happened to me 2 days ago (my bike just slipped out to the left on black ice as well) but i saved it. I had platform pedals.

In those 2 videos these guys seems to have anticipated falls. They acted before a major motion of the bike
For me those are slow falls (plenty of time to anticipate)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tdJazvWEcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on6QZXvNDHk

In this one it doesn't seems he did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxpB1TszKME
Bike move first (rotate in this case) and the guy reacts to the bike rotating. Pretty much like in a case of an unexpected fast slipping wheel on black ice.
From what i've read it takes about 250ms for someone to react to a stimulus.
Your reaction to the event was pretty much like my accident with a car a few years back. Got early warning (in your case the rear wheel slipping) but chose to dismiss it. It happens even to the best
Processing of this first stimulus probably resulted in generating a psychological refractory period in which processing of a second stimulus was slowed down by processing of the first one.

TransitBiker

The N360 hub is totally different from what most other cyclists use, and totally different from my old bike that i had over a decade. I literally said out loud to myself "ah man, they better fix this quick when i take it in" as it all ready needs to go in for new brake pads, chain lube, and chain case install. The bike over-all is great, i'm simply not used to owning and using a bike like this... i've had a kids bike then a full suspension mountain bike, then a road bike, and then the cruiser. and i had the cruiser for 12 years. I ran the mountain bike into the ground as it was basically a BSO and was not worth buying new parts for, the road bike was OK but my skill and confidence level was not as good back then, so i opted to ride my brother's schwinn cruiser most of the time if available, then i got my own cruiser..... so... its easy to dismiss an issue like crank slip (crank rotate, wheel not) with this bike as something i can check out later. This is also the first time this winter it snowed then sleeted then rained then got above freezing on a clear day. So as most incidents tend to be, it wasnt one thing, it was a combination of factors. I'm just glad the instinct to pull my head away from the ground kicked in or i'd probably need another new helmet.

- Andy

MichaelW

Black ice often forms in cold-spots on otherwise warm roads; places such as shadows, dips where cold air collects.
It forms on untreated cyclepaths alongside roads that have been safely gritted.
At near-zero C (ie freezing point) black ice may have a layer of meltwater for extra concealement and slipperyness.
There are other kinds of ice on the road, but black ice is the most hazardous. If you ride with any dependance on tyre traction (ie lean, steer, road camber, slick tarmac, brake or balance recovery) you are going down fast.
Studded winter tyres are a solution but black ice can sneak in on otherwise clear and cold mornings when you might not be using studs. If your winter is long, cold and icy, you should be using studs the whole time. In more temperate climates, cold days can be exceptional and no-one wants to use studs if they don't have to.

Black ice may form on rough surfaces (unworn chip and seal) but this presents no real danger. You need a smooth surface to be really dangerous.
Note the micro-climates on your route esp cold spots where black ice can form.

wolfchild

Normally I would never advocate riding FG without foot retention. However one of my FG bikes which I use during winter has very low gear ratio, it easy to control and easy to stop with pinned BMX pedals and grippy shoes.

cb400bill

Good Morning.

As this thread is about riding in winter and falling due to black ice, please stay on that topic. There are a million other threads discussing the pluses and minuses of pedals.

Thank you!

tarwheel 

This is why I haven't bike commuted in more than a week. There has been black ice everywhere on our streets in the mornings since we had a sleet storm last Monday night. The weather warmed up over the weekend with some rain, so hopefully that will clear the roadside of ice that continues to melt during the days and refreeze at nights.

mcours2006

With the temperatures we've been having lately black ice isn't so much a concern. But it may become so in a few weeks, when hopefully this deep freeze breaks. I haven't been on my bike in February at all due to the weather.

When I had my fall on the driveway ice I had studded tires. It made no difference. Perhaps at higher speeds it would be different.

tjspiel

If there are bike shops around you that stock studded tires you might be able to get a really good deal in a few weeks. My current set was a 2 for 1 deal that I got at the end of March or early April.

Mr IGH

I bought the Kendas Klondikes, much cheaper than other offerings, studs are carbide/long lasting just like the expensive tires. They ride like rocks in the cold but it doesn't bother me. I was attending a brewery event on Saturday, the weather went from wet to a flash freeze with snow on top. My Klondikes took me home safe and sound. Here it doesn't stay cold all winter long like Chicago, I'm building a second set of wheels so I can swap if it's going to go below freezing.

joeyduck

@Darth Lefty. That is an appropriate title.

I went down once due to black ice, it was a late November morning many years ago. I knew I had the risk of black ice on this 90° corner, so I took it slow and cautious and made it through. Then as I went straight I thought okay I'm in the clear, only to have that thought disrupted by sliding along the road.

This reminded me when there is a risk of black ice never get complacent in your thoughts. Lucky for me there was no lasting damage to me or the bike.

I got studded tires this year and put them on any time the temperature was near freezing. I didn't want to take the risk.

Leebo

Studded tires work great on ice. Cheaper than bruises. And better looking.

ThermionicScott 

There are a couple of "lessons learned" to take from this: one is not to use tires that just have the studs going down the center (Nokian W106's?), and the other is not to lean the bike as aggressively as you do in the summer. Moving the center of gravity away from over the wheels is just begging to have the bike slide out from under you.

noglider 

My hairiest encounter with ice was when I was in college. I was riding a squirrely racing bike with a rack on the back and my book bag strapped to the rack. I reached a pinch-point in the road, going under an overpass with a bike-tire-eating sewer grate. I had to move to the left to avoid the grate, but there was a bus coming up from behind, and suddenly, I hit ice. My rear end fishtailed, and I thought, OK, now I'm going to die, because the bus was right behind me. Somehow I stayed up and lived to tell this tale. I will never know how.

noglider 

And I fell on ice twice in one ride last winter. I did not get hurt thanks to some interesting luck. I had previously taught adults how to ride a bike, and a technique I have for allaying their fears of falling is teaching them the "stage fall." This is how a stage actor falls, when the script calls for it. You bend your ankle to the side, then fall on your ankle, knee, hip, elbow, then shoulder. We do it on the grass in slow motion. Well, when I fell on the ice, that practice came into use without my thinking about it. The rehearsal paid off for the performance.

I recommend everyone practice falling. It will pay off eventually.

auldgeunquers

Yep, those would be the lessons. Mostly.

Those plus the fact that ice can fool you in that what you think is mostly bare pavement with good traction can, in fact, be pretty slick. This was not a black ice condition, but I expected more traction at that point than was actually available.

I do like the tires most days though. They are my first set of studded tires and they are two of my favourite things ever. But no tire is going to be ideal under the many and varied conditions one encounters in winter. These tires are at their best on hard frozen snow pack. They are OK on ice. They have no float when things start to get soft. They are heavy pushing on dry pavement. Fortunately - hard frozen packed snow is my most common winter condition here. For my next set of winter tires though, I think I will opt for wider tires with more studs on the sides of the tread.

That, ... or a fat bike ...

scroca

With studded tires you won't know when you ride over black ice except when the sound of the studs changes. That is, of course, as long as you don't try to ride fast around corners on ice.

As for pedals/foot retention, there's at least 2 other threads about this. Why bring your arguments into this one too?

erig007

Pedals/foot retention in a context of black ice can be different to the one without black ice as in the black ice case chances are that there will be no warning. It isn't like coming to a stop or hitting a vehicle where you have time to see it coming even if it is in the 100 of ms range. Your wheel may slip with little to no warning. Therefore talking about it here isn't redundant with other thread since the context is different in my opinion but there is plenty of things to talk about on this subject.