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  1. #26
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    "Everytime I see smokers throw out butts on the ground, out there car, I just wanna kick the ***** outta them." QUOTE.

    I can see a "PERSONALITY DEFECT", here; time to

    LIQUIDATE!


    Reguards, (Regards)
    J T

  2. #27
    BeaverTerror Yan's Avatar
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    Fiscal conservative says:

    You can ride your bike without a helmet as long as you agree to cover your own healthcare costs after receiving head injury.

    Same goes for smokers and people who don't like seatbelts. The world owes you nothing. Society is kind enough to assist people who fall on hard times through no fault of their own, but it shouldn't pay for your adamant stupidity.

    Give us the freedom to not pay your healthcare bills, and you can have the freedom to take whatever risks you want.
    Yan

    2013 True North custom touring; 2010 Novara Randonee; 2009 Unicycle.com Club 24"; 1989 Miele Tivoli; 1979 Colnago Sport

  3. #28
    Senior Member ottawa_adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan View Post
    Fiscal conservative says:

    You can ride your bike without a helmet as long as you agree to cover your own healthcare costs after receiving head injury.

    Same goes for smokers and people who don't like seatbelts. The world owes you nothing. Society is kind enough to assist people who fall on hard times through no fault of their own, but it shouldn't pay for your adamant stupidity.

    Give us the freedom to not pay your healthcare bills, and you can have the freedom to take whatever risks you want.
    So where do we draw the line? How about jaywalkers? People who use known carcinogens (such as harsh cleaners, air fresheners, perfumes)? How about people who are obese and don't eat according to the Canada's Food Guide? How about people who don't exercise?

    While I do agree somewhat with your statement, we do have a publicly funded healthcare that is provided as a defacto human right in Canada? At what point do we start placing restrictions?

  4. #29
    Senior Member michaelalanjone's Avatar
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    I am sure people know how I feel, as a person who crashed his unhelmeted head into the sidewalk 20 years ago. Been wearing a helmet since that day, and why wouldn't you? For the same reason people don't wear seat belts - the freedom to become a vegetable and a burden to others!

    Don't you want to protect the second most important piece of cycling gear? [hint: Your brain!]

    Hey, I know it takes a long time to get your hair just right, you wouldn't want to mess it up with a helmet (or a pool of blood).

  5. #30
    Senior Member skiracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelalanjone View Post
    I am sure people know how I feel, as a person who crashed his unhelmeted head into the sidewalk 20 years ago. Been wearing a helmet since that day, and why wouldn't you? For the same reason people don't wear seat belts - the freedom to become a vegetable and a burden to others!

    Don't you want to protect the second most important piece of cycling gear? [hint: Your brain!]

    Hey, I know it takes a long time to get your hair just right, you wouldn't want to mess it up with a helmet (or a pool of blood).
    Luckily I never got to experience that.... I've biked for ages without a helmet and never had any bad hits on the head.... have had some bad bike crashes but never hit my head. Last summer I got a road bike and continued without using a helmet. Then in the Fall I gave in and got it... I ski with a helemt, might as well bike with one too. It ain't that bad.... it was a personal choice to get it; to those ppl who are super against it, I just think you gotta put in on and once you do a lot of your hesitation will disappear.

    Why was I against helemts before? Mostly cause I associated them with ppl who are riding a bike at a whooping 5 km/h and wearing a helmet in a way that is probably endangering them more than protecting (straps loose, helemt too big, either sitting on their forehead or covering the eyes)... so I associated the item with those ppl. Nothing has changed, I still think they are dorks!
    Work hard, play harder.
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  6. #31
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    "You can ride your bike without a helmet as long as you agree to cover your own healthcare costs after receiving head injury." QUOTE.

    "In Ontariariario where there is a Place To Stand, but

    No Place To Sit",

    Health Care is paid by the individual.

    Thank you Liberal Party of McGinty!


    Regards,
    J T

  7. #32
    Senior Member ottawa_adam's Avatar
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    Health care is always paid by the individual. It's called taxes! You can't blame one man for years of problems and lack of reform. We still have one of the best healthcare systems in the world.

  8. #33
    Senior Member ottawa_adam's Avatar
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    This is also not the right forum to be disussing politics.

  9. #34
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    "We still have one of the best healthcare systems in the world." QUOTE.

    Yup, the "SYSTEM", is working, but not the "HEALTHCARE"!


    Regards,
    J T

  10. #35
    Senior Member skiracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ottawa_adam View Post
    This is also not the right forum to be disussing politics.
    Considering that this forum is DEAD, you should discuss anything and everything you want in it. Also, it's a local forum.... and it's a local issue so nothing wrong with discussing it here.

    The point about our healthcare being one of the best in the world is a little off... It's one of the best in the sense of accessibility... that is for the most part any member of society can have the same access regardless of their income status (I know that's arguable but at least for the time being it's somewhat like that). But if you look at the healthcare in terms of trying to keep the population healthy.... it's failing miserably.... our health system is reactive, not proactive. To get that world class treatment you got to be SICK but not much goes into trying to raise a healthy population. We do have specialists that are world renown but again, their value is only in treating a person once he/she is already very sick.
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  11. #36
    Senior Member ottawa_adam's Avatar
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    My issue wasn't about discussing our healthcare concerns. I was making reference to the comment about the Premier and his political party - that should be discussed elsewhere.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiracing View Post
    To get that world class treatment you got to be SICK but not much goes into trying to raise a healthy population. We do have specialists that are world renown but again, their value is only in treating a person once he/she is already very sick.
    And to circle it back on topic, one of the measures of making a healthy population is making helmets a requirement for all while riding bikes.

  13. #38
    BeaverTerror Yan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ottawa_adam View Post
    So where do we draw the line? How about jaywalkers? People who use known carcinogens (such as harsh cleaners, air fresheners, perfumes)? How about people who are obese and don't eat according to the Canada's Food Guide? How about people who don't exercise?
    What ABOUT them?

    The last time I was in an emergency room after a cycling accident, I waited three hours and had to use my own first aid kit. How pathetic is that?

    What's the point of paying taxes, when all you get in return is crappy healthcare? Let me buy my own insurance and I could save a boatload of money AND get better health care.

    The trade off is, poor people are screwed. Guess dropping out of highschool wasn't such a good idea after all, huh?

    That's ok though. As long as you have enough kids, you can afford a Dodge Charger with all the welfare you get. No, you don't even have to work. Yes, I'm talking about my neighbour. Maybe he's actually a criminal mastermind with a fair bit of hidden income? Who knows...

    Wait, I forgot this is a liberal utopia. *Puts on flame proof suit*
    Last edited by Yan; 04-18-08 at 08:50 PM.
    Yan

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  14. #39
    LMLN Turd Ferguson's Avatar
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    If you can patch yourself up then your wounds must have been minor. The emergency room is for "emergencies", you will seldom (if ever) find someone with serious injuries not getting immediate medical attention.

    Even if your taxed dollars for health care were not deducted from your pay check, and left to your own devices, you likely couldn't afford to be treated for any serious ailment, cancer etc.

    Should you become stricken with any serious disease I expect you to kneel in genuflect in praise of Canadian Health Care. If this isn't the case then you have the funds to seek care elsewhere...but that probably isn't your situation...correct?
    Last edited by Turd Ferguson; 04-18-08 at 09:24 PM.

  15. #40
    BeaverTerror Yan's Avatar
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    TF: Correct, although:

    The alternative to a public healthcare policy is not pay-out-of-your-pocket: it's privatized health insurance. There are several forms of these. In one popular form, the private healthcare provider owns and operates its own facilities and provides care to its "members", who are in effect enrolled in insurance policies. An example of this is Kaiser Permanente (mostly California based).

    Private healthcare providers are not the bureaucratic, mismanaged blackholes that most left wing governments are. They actually try to operate with efficiency. Further more, the organization I mentioned above is a non-profit. And guess what? They actually provide quality and timely care, because if they didn't, people won't use them. The end result of all this is healthcare that is both cheaper and better than the public healthcare we get in Canada. And you know what else? If you're young, healthy, and active, you can choose to opt for a cheaper plan. In Canada, you pay more if you're rich, regardless of your health condition. That just exaspirates the whole nanny state problem because now the uninitiated know they can fall back on the rest of society, and are even less motivated to turn their lives around. Great. If someone has worked hard all their lives and has finally made it to the top, they shouldn't be punished with the burden of another's laziness. That's just not fair. You probably don't agree with me, but you're probably a liberal.

    How do I know all this weird Californian stuff? I'm on the architecture team that's designing Kaiser's new hospital in Oakland.

    The catch is, ofcourse, that you'll always have people who won't buy private insurance. Half of these people could probably afford insurance if they'd stop racking up credit card debt. I'm not particularly sympathetic because I've never paid any credit interest, ever. Sorry.

    As for those people who are in difficult times for genuine reasons, a sudden disabling accident, for example, I don't have a problem with assisting them. I'm not against social aid, I'm just against social aid for those who don't deserve it, which happens to be most people, unfortunately.

    Just because I'm a conservative doesn't mean I won't help a stranger in need, but when the same twenty something year old hipster asks me for bus money everyday on the way to work, it gets old fast. Find a job, is it that hard?

    Homeless? That's ok! Stop buying crack and save the money people give you. Once you have a few hundred bucks, rent a cheap room for a month, clean yourself up, buy an outfit from Goodwill, look presentable, find an odd job. Voila! $1280 a month working 40 hours a week at minimum wage! Work a second job, even more money. Save the money, go to some trades school. In just a few short years, you can go from a bum to a perfectly respectable, honest and hardworking blue collar citizen. Then you can buy a house and have some kids. Aren't we supposed to be able to achieve whatever we want in life, as long as we set our minds to it? Isn't that the American dream? Did people stop believing this stuff? I haven't.

    Absolutely no excuses except for laziness. That twently something year old I mentioned above is still going to be asking for money when he's forty, fifth, sixty, and then what?

    As for the accident I mentioned, it wasn't me. It was my riding partner. We were riding eastbound to Niagara Falls, along the QEW service road. Somewhere between Stoney Creek and Grimsby, she drafted too close, hit my pannier, and fell into the the acoustic barrier wall. She got her cheek and collar bone scratched up, but the helmet saved her head (there's a moral in there somewhere).

    She said she had a headache and couldn't ride. I spent 10 minutes trying to flag down a ride, and then gave up and called 911. What if she had an intracranial hemorrhage? She was fine, by the way.

    Wait, WHAT IF she had an intracranial hemorrhage?! She probably would have just passed out and died right there in the emergency waiting room, and nobody would have noticed. Didn't that happen in Ontario a few years ago?

    This isn't just about the emergency rooms. When I say I need a hip replacement, I don't mean that I need a hip replacement next year. I mean that I need it now. It means I'm 75 years old, I'm suddenly bedbound, and if I'm unable to get on my feet soon, my health will probably deteriorate very quickly, and chances are I'll never get off the bed again.

    The problem is deep, the issues are serious, and us Canadians are deluding ourselves thinking that we've got it better than everyone else. We don't.

    So please folks, grow the hell up and wear a helmet. Worried about helmet hair? Angry about that "freedom" BS? Helmets cramp your style? Where are you from? Junior high?
    Last edited by Yan; 04-19-08 at 01:51 AM.
    Yan

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  16. #41
    Senior Member skiracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan View Post
    The trade off is, poor people are screwed. Guess dropping out of highschool wasn't such a good idea after all, huh?
    So Yan, every person who is poor in Canada is the result of dropping out of highschool? The average immigrant is more educated than the average CDN (it's a fact) but many of them are in poverty. And without even going the immigrant route, there are tons of those who have gone through college or university but fall on hard times.

    Private health care IS pay out of pocket. You talk about insurance as though it's some cheap rate of 10 bucks a month but you get all these benefits of privatized HC. That's a bunch of bs, look at GM in US.... GM pays all health insurance costs for its workers, these health insurance costs amount more per employee than what we pay in Canada per person in terms of taxes. In fact, US's health system is a complete mess, I would NEVER EVER use it as an example to look up to. If you haven't noticed recently, everytime something major gets messed up in US, it's usually cause it was left to the devices of the private sector and the reaction is more government involvement (ie. more government regulations in the mortgage/credit industry following the mortgage crisis.... and this is happening under Republicans).

    It's a big pet peeve of mine when ppl think that just by privatizing something it will work better, that's a bunch of BS and its been proven multiple times. I'm not the keep everything public type of person, I just don't believe in a "one way" approach to everything.

    And like the other poster said, if you could take care of yourself with a first aid kit you shoudn't have gone to ER in the first place.
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  17. #42
    BeaverTerror Yan's Avatar
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    You're right, not every poor person is a highschool dropout.

    Canada needs a welfare reform (like Clinton's 1996 reform). Place a lifetime limit on how many years of welfare one can receive. Shift the motivation from trying to stay on welfare to trying to find a direction in life. Mandate atleast part time employment as a prerequisite for welfare.

    The disabled can keep their benefits without restrictions.

    Canadians don't neccessarily pay less in taxes than Americans pay in privatized health insurance. That depends on how much taxes you pay. The American healthcare system is also a mess. Who knows what the best system is?

    Finally, your last concern would have been addressed had you read my entire post. And your statement is wrong in any case. You shouldn't take chances with your life.
    Yan

    2013 True North custom touring; 2010 Novara Randonee; 2009 Unicycle.com Club 24"; 1989 Miele Tivoli; 1979 Colnago Sport

  18. #43
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    I thought this thread had something to do with bike helmets. Come on people, put it on, fasten it and get out and ride!

  19. #44
    Senior Member ottawa_adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mchell View Post
    I thought this thread had something to do with bike helmets. Come on people, put it on, fasten it and get out and ride!
    I agree! I wear a helmet when I ride just because. It doesn't take any additional effort and if there's a chance it can save my noggin, then it can't really be a bad thing, no? Also, there's helmets now that look pretty freakin cool. I got a Giro Xen and love it.

  20. #45
    I don't wanna be a Newbie
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    I wear a helmet, and am not averse to a helmet law for one main reason. I believe in the helmet law for kids. I believe that helmets save lives, and that kids should wear helmets for that very reason. So, why would that not apply to me as well? I put a helmet on and I know that some parent won't have to answer the inevitible question..."Why doesn't she have to wear a helmet, and I do?"

  21. #46
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    you totally miss the p-oint of personal freedom of choice. what suddenly makes cycling a dangerous
    activity that mandates that you must wear a helmet. statistics don't support it. yes there are cycling
    accidents and deaths as there are with any activity such as walking where you can get hit by a car or
    fall over. statistically we should wear a helmet while walking and as i said earlier more people die falling
    out of bed so you should wear a helmet to bed. Why aren't you wearing a helmet in your car? these statistics are supported in an article in times
    magazine about a year ago. do you make laws so you can blame the person for an accident and then
    withdrawl their health coverage. please legislate inactivity and take the risk out of living. MAKING PEOPLE AWARE OF RISKS IS FINE BUT LEGISLATING PEOPLE IS NOT AS WE SHOULD BE FREE TO MAKE OUR OWN
    DECISIONS BASED ON FACTS PROVIDED BY THE GOVERNMENT. If you wish to wear a helmet then be my
    guest but and that doesn't mean you are a better person and should be covered by health care any more
    than anyone else. Are the people in the United States a bunch of fools because a lot of them don't even
    have to wear motorcycle helmets. Once again it cannot be proven that helmets save lives but they
    certainly could save you from abrasions. Who would ever think that you could get a ticket for riding a
    bicycle?

  22. #47
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    that is fine but we don't need new laws . do we need to be controlled by an over zealous government
    What laws will be next? I think i should move to another country where the people are valued and not
    controlled

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    read the anti helmet web sites where they discuss rotational injuries. incidentally most cyclists die from
    injuries to other parts of the body so maybe you should wear a body suit to totally protect you

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    Actually, I don't have a bell attached to my bike. That's like an $85 ticket, I think. That's so lame. LOL.

    I didn't protest that law, btw. Still don't care.

  25. #50
    Senior Member Snow_canuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ottawa_adam View Post
    So where do we draw the line? How about jaywalkers? People who use known carcinogens (such as harsh cleaners, air fresheners, perfumes)? How about people who are obese and don't eat according to the Canada's Food Guide? How about people who don't exercise?

    While I do agree somewhat with your statement, we do have a publicly funded healthcare that is provided as a defacto human right in Canada? At what point do we start placing restrictions?


    Easy, people who do not comply should be shipped out to Alberta. That'll teach them.

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