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-   -   Any Interest In A Critical Manners for Toronto? (http://www.bikeforums.net/eastern-canada/424237-any-interest-critical-manners-toronto.html)

IronMac 05-31-08 07:07 AM

Any Interest In A Critical Manners for Toronto?
 
After responding in another thread about my feelings on Critical Mass, I did a Google search and found something called "Critical Manners". It's similar to CM but it's about sharing the road rather than seizing control of it.

As a Manners' rider, you're a vehicular rider in that you obey all traffic laws. You are sharing the road and you are being nice but firm about it. It's not about wimping out to cars and it's not about breaking laws in order to say, hey, we're part of traffic too.

I think that this is more in keeping with what Canadian society is all about and it's much more inclusive. I know that I was turned off by my first and only Critical Mass and I am sure that there are other cyclists out there who would like to say that we're part of the overall road environment but in a nicer and less antagonistic manner.

It's traditionally held on the last Tuesday of each month according to Wikipedia.

Any interest? :)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGB6P8R1U1.DTL

drafters65 05-31-08 11:05 PM

+1 for the idea...this works way better than critical masses...gaining respect by respecting others has always worked and is more effective than "lets be uncontrollable pests to get what we want".

ISaacG 06-01-08 08:45 AM

I like the idea, too.

IronMac 06-01-08 12:48 PM

Thanks, I was thinking that I'd be the lone voice here. I realized last year that Critical Mass doesn't speak to me and after the Gardiner incident I certainly don't want them to speak for me. It's sort of my "not in my name" moment. I believe everyone belongs on the road and that the road has to be shared equitably with respect given to everyone. I'll keep you all updated here on how it goes. :)

Markok765 06-01-08 02:34 PM

Critical mass is more fun though!

J A Holman 06-01-08 03:18 PM

What kind of fool doesn't think both are effective? The kind that doesn't believe people who see things differently than they should be allowed to vote or have a place in society.

They are each less effective without the other when one works to the exclusion of the other. Support both and kill two birds with one stone. Reach more people and rest easy knowing you did not become the unenlightened dip**** you thought others were when you were young enough to understand new.

drafters65 06-02-08 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J A Holman (Post 6798665)
What kind of fool doesn't think both are effective? The kind that doesn't believe people who see things differently than they should be allowed to vote or have a place in society.

I dont think critical masses are effective because all you're doing is pissing people off and making them want to get rid of you with the first chance they get. And I do believe that people that see things differently should be allowed to vote, voice themselves or have a place in society and thats why im all for critical manner :D. If critical masses really works then where are the results?! lol All theyre doing is giving cyclist a bad name and stereotype. Protesting (cmanner) works...."riots" (cmass) DONT....why? because they will never find enough people to break the law inorder to be heard and if you get out of hand theyll just put you back in place with whatever method they choose.

drafters65 06-02-08 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markok765 (Post 6798468)
Critical mass is more fun though!

It probably is and thats all it should be done for. meaning dont do it for a "cause" because it doesnt work and gives cyclist a bad name. If people want to be idiots and ride into a highway then go ahead but dont use it to represent the thousands of other cyclists on the rode. Many of us disagree with this method and yet we have to suffer the stereotypes that they have caused.

IronMac 06-02-08 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markok765 (Post 6798468)
Critical mass is more fun though!

Actually, I think that CMasses are going to be more fun no matter which way you cut it. I really doubt that a CManners ride will ever attract a guy on a double-wheeler wearing a big hat and blowing a trumpet. :lol:

IronMac 06-02-08 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J A Holman (Post 6798665)
What kind of fool doesn't think both are effective? The kind that doesn't believe people who see things differently than they should be allowed to vote or have a place in society.

They are each less effective without the other when one works to the exclusion of the other. Support both and kill two birds with one stone. Reach more people and rest easy knowing you did not become the unenlightened dip**** you thought others were when you were young enough to understand new.

Yep, I think that CManners should be seen as more of an alternative to CMass. There are people like me who simply don't think that CMass speaks to them and shouldn't speak for them. One of the most important things that should not be overlooked is that the more cyclists out on the road the better.

smp22 06-02-08 06:47 AM

What's this road equality you guys speak of?
Bicycles and cars will never be equal on the road.

Just like endangered species who are more sensitive to environmental change so too must cyclist get SPECIAL attention and treatment on the roads. Last I checked (and it was only 4 days ago), when a bike and a car collide there is very plainly no equality.
I'm all for sharing the roads, but I'm a firm believer that cyclists need to be given special treatment. Kind of how speeding is enforced double around school zones.
Special attention for the vulnerable.

Sorry, haven't had my morning coffee yet ... vocab slim ATM, could have used a better choice of words.

drafters65 06-02-08 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smp22 (Post 6802012)
What's this road equality you guys speak of?
Bicycles and cars will never be equal on the road.

Just like endangered species who are more sensitive to environmental change so too must cyclist get SPECIAL attention and treatment on the roads. Last I checked (and it was only 4 days ago), when a bike and a car collide there is very plainly no equality.
I'm all for sharing the roads, but I'm a firm believer that cyclists need to be given special treatment. Kind of how speeding is enforced double around school zones.
Special attention for the vulnerable.

Sorry, haven't had my morning coffee yet ... vocab slim ATM, could have used a better choice of words.

have you ever seen a motorcycle and car crash? does that mean they should get special treatment also? what kinda special attention and treatment do you expect to have that we dont already? we get to go both ways in any street, we get to roll off a stop sign and reds if there are no cars, we get to ride on the sidewalk...i know people say that its illegal but its not the same as if you are seen doing those things in a car or a motorcycle.

Flimflam 06-02-08 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drafters65 (Post 6803234)
<snip>
we get to go both ways in any street, we get to roll off a stop sign and reds if there are no cars, we get to ride on the sidewalk...i know people say that its illegal but its not the same as if you are seen doing those things in a car or a motorcycle.

Not in Toronto. We are not allowed to roll reds or stops, cars or no cars. I don't think there's a provision for lights that don't change when just a bike is on the sensor, either. We're also not legally allowed on the sidewalk if we're riding something with wheels over 24".

It'd be nice to have a few discretionary areas, though most people use their own discretion anyway by choosing which/what laws to follow at their convenience/leisure (myself included, there's several stop signs I frequently roll through).

I'm all for Critical Manners, too. I'm no angel, and I'm no asshat on the bike either - I have and will make mistakes, but I ride pretty conservatively/safely - or I like to think so, anyway. I'm all for more cyclists on the street, and I know every single person I speak to in my social circles that doesn't ride, doesn't because they feel endangered on the streets. Like it or not, people view Toronto as a deathzone for cyclists, and unfortunately has been proven to be that at times. I'm all for whatever "cause" will bring more people away from the gas guzzlers.

Critical Mass, for me, is about taking part in a mass movement of like-minded people - I love riding my bike, and I wish more people would/could experience that - it's a lot of fun and empowering, I like to show that to everyone on the street (watch the reactions on Yonge when mass rolls by, it's awesome).

No equality when there's a 20lb bike vs. a 1000lb car, but we have the same rules and mostly the same space to work with.

The law is there, and we can't change that (certainly not overnight, anyway) - and I ride to cause the least interruption around me - beit by rolling a stop sign, or hammering on the brake early at an approaching amber so the school bus turning right onto my street can go and get his job done without me holding him up by flying through a changing light.

In short, I'll certainly come along if I can make it schedule-wise. I don't in the least bit feel hypocritical to go to 'mass and 'manners and I hope you all don't think so, either.

Flimflam 06-02-08 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drafters65 (Post 6803234)
have you ever seen a motorcycle and car crash? does that mean they should get special treatment also?

Oh, and this is an inaccurate comparison to cycling. Motorcyclists are licensed to ride those vehicles by the government of Ontario, cyclists have no such licensing or governance other than that in the HTA - I'd think that's a significant 'special' difference in treatment.

drafters65 06-02-08 01:22 PM

Not in Toronto. We are not allowed to roll reds or stops, cars or no cars. I don't think there's a provision for lights that don't change when just a bike is on the sensor, either. We're also not legally allowed on the sidewalk if we're riding something with wheels over 24".

its illegal here in new york city also but its not strictly enforced so people still do it regularly. Which i think is already our special treatment. Maybe they should enforce those laws harder on us cyclist and motorist this way there will be less accidents. Maybe like a no tolerance law for the ones they have now? but that would definitely take away alot of the perks of cycling for most people...like me I ride because its a faster alternative to get from point A to point B in the city so it would defeat my purpose if i have to wait in every redlight and stopsign and not being able to go the opposite way of traffic...but then itll be alot safer to ride...maybe this is a give and take situation...

Critical Mass, for me, is about taking part in a mass movement of like-minded people - I love riding my bike, and I wish more people would/could experience that - it's a lot of fun and empowering, I like to show that to everyone on the street (watch the reactions on Yonge when mass rolls by, it's awesome).

If only everyone saw it the same way...its unfortunate that their are those individuals that ruined the definition of critical mass. I see critical manners as the new beginning of critical mass...remove the name with a bad reputation and changing it with a new one. but this time there will be rules and guidelines to keep the name clean. Oh and i think if the young understood some of the things that happens during a critical mass i dont think they would have the same reaction...to them its just a bunch of bikes flying by...the same effect can be made with cmanner in a positive way...Cmanner = what cmass intended to be but failed due to a few rotten individuals

Oh and i still dont get what kinda special treatments you guys are talking about...

drafters65 06-02-08 01:35 PM

Oh, and this is an inaccurate comparison to cycling. Motorcyclists are licensed to ride those vehicles by the government of Ontario, cyclists have no such licensing or governance other than that in the HTA - I'd think that's a significant 'special' difference in treatment.

erm...which means they have to pay to be on the rode meanwhile its free for us...thats pretty special treatment to me rofl...oh and we get to park on side walks without the fear of getting a ticket...hey maybe we should demand people to have a license to operate a bicycle, atleast then people will know if they are capable of riding a bicycle on the rode...itll help reassure your friends that are afraid to ride and lower accident rates...

pinerider 06-02-08 02:54 PM

Maybe this thread should be moved over to A & S so it can get the degree of polarity it deserves!! :)(jk)
On the slight chance a Critical Manners ride would be noticed by the papers, people may read it, won't remember it and won't think about cyclists.
Critical Mass on the Gardiner will get remembered, and people will think of cyclists. Not necessarily good thoughts, but hopefully with more awareness than before.

I'm not saying they were right in riding the Gardiner, but I think they came closer to meeting the objectives of CM.

IronMac 06-05-08 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinerider (Post 6805390)
Maybe this thread should be moved over to A & S so it can get the degree of polarity it deserves!! :)(jk)
On the slight chance a Critical Manners ride would be noticed by the papers, people may read it, won't remember it and won't think about cyclists.
Critical Mass on the Gardiner will get remembered, and people will think of cyclists. Not necessarily good thoughts, but hopefully with more awareness than before.

I'm not saying they were right in riding the Gardiner, but I think they came closer to meeting the objectives of CM.

Frankly, while it would be nice for the papers to cover this, it would be much much better if a CManners ride would elevate the standing that cyclists have in the minds of other road-users.

IronMac 06-05-08 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drafters65 (Post 6804840)
Oh, and this is an inaccurate comparison to cycling. Motorcyclists are licensed to ride those vehicles by the government of Ontario, cyclists have no such licensing or governance other than that in the HTA - I'd think that's a significant 'special' difference in treatment.

erm...which means they have to pay to be on the rode meanwhile its free for us...thats pretty special treatment to me rofl...oh and we get to park on side walks without the fear of getting a ticket...hey maybe we should demand people to have a license to operate a bicycle, atleast then people will know if they are capable of riding a bicycle on the rode...itll help reassure your friends that are afraid to ride and lower accident rates...

This is one extreme that the idea of "special" treatment can bring us to and it's not something that I think any of us really want. I've heard people disparage "car-laws" as an excuse not to follow the current laws on road use, well, what do you want? Bike laws? A licensing system aimed at cyclists? No thanks.

ISaacG 06-05-08 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drafters65 (Post 6804840)
Oh, and this is an inaccurate comparison to cycling. Motorcyclists are licensed to ride those vehicles by the government of Ontario, cyclists have no such licensing or governance other than that in the HTA - I'd think that's a significant 'special' difference in treatment.

erm...which means they have to pay to be on the rode meanwhile its free for us...thats pretty special treatment to me rofl...oh and we get to park on side walks without the fear of getting a ticket...hey maybe we should demand people to have a license to operate a bicycle, atleast then people will know if they are capable of riding a bicycle on the rode...itll help reassure your friends that are afraid to ride and lower accident rates...

What's that supposed to mean? A motorcyclist's license is a license to drive the vehicle, not a membership to use the road! Cyclists also pay taxes, so pay equally for the road.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMac (Post 6822914)
This is one extreme that the idea of "special" treatment can bring us to and it's not something that I think any of us really want. I've heard people disparage "car-laws" as an excuse not to follow the current laws on road use, well, what do you want? Bike laws? A licensing system aimed at cyclists? No thanks.

I heard Toronto cops will be "cracking down" on cyclists sometime this summer. I forget the date.
My mom saw some get a $200 fine for no bell, not-working rear brakes and some third offense.

IronMac 06-05-08 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISaacG (Post 6823382)
I heard Toronto cops will be "cracking down" on cyclists sometime this summer. I forget the date.

Right, I forgot about this. Heard from someone who heard from someone-in-the-know that the police have a quota of 3000 tickets for bicyclists by the end of June. So, watch out!

ISaacG 06-05-08 08:20 AM

They can tag me for no lights, but I got a bell. I think lights is only $35 where bell is $105...

smp22 06-09-08 08:51 AM

Special treatment the same way that school zones get special treatment. If a car driver faces tougher penalties for speeding in a school zone they should face tougher penalties for endangering cyclists. Be that opening car doors without looking, pulling out in traffic, pulling over in the bike lane etc.
So yeah, special treatment in terms of enforcement. As a society we need to protect the vulnerable. The attitude of most drivers here is that bicycles do not belong on the road.
All my friends that don't ride don't do it because it's "too dangerous". That's the same mentality that car drivers have when they label us all "idiots".
Just a few weeks ago a guy was killed because he got doored and then ended up under a truck.

So yeah, we need some laws and ENFORCEMENT to make people think twice before opening that car door, pulling over in the bike lane, pulling out in traffic etc.
And as a motorcycle rider for 5 years now I can say that motorcycles need special treatment too .. ie; keep your damn distance you crazy moron car driver. We recently got to park motorcycles wherever cars can park on the street which is a huge improvement. And yes, motorcycles are more fuel efficient and easier on traffic congestion so people need to be rewarded for having less of an impact.

smp22 06-09-08 09:04 AM

Special treatment the same way that school zones get special treatment. If a car driver faces tougher penalties for speeding in a school zone they should face tougher penalties for endangering cyclists. Be that opening car doors without looking, pulling out in traffic, pulling over in the bike lane etc.
So yeah, special treatment in terms of enforcement. As a society we need to protect the vulnerable. The attitude of most drivers here is that bicycles do not belong on the road.
All my friends that don't ride don't do it because it's "too dangerous". That's the same mentality that car drivers have when they label us all "idiots".
Just a few weeks ago a guy was killed because he got doored and then ended up under a truck.

So yeah, we need some laws and ENFORCEMENT to make people think twice before opening that car door, pulling over in the bike lane, pulling out in traffic etc.
And as a motorcycle rider for 5 years now I can say that motorcycles need special treatment too .. ie; keep your damn distance you crazy moron car driver. We recently got to park motorcycles wherever cars can park on the street which is a huge improvement. And yes, motorcycles are more fuel efficient and easier on traffic congestion so people need to be rewarded for having less of an impact.

drafters65 06-09-08 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smp22 (Post 6846796)
Special treatment the same way that school zones get special treatment. If a car driver faces tougher penalties for speeding in a school zone they should face tougher penalties for endangering cyclists. Be that opening car doors without looking, pulling out in traffic, pulling over in the bike lane etc.
So yeah, special treatment in terms of enforcement. As a society we need to protect the vulnerable. The attitude of most drivers here is that bicycles do not belong on the road.
All my friends that don't ride don't do it because it's "too dangerous". That's the same mentality that car drivers have when they label us all "idiots".
Just a few weeks ago a guy was killed because he got doored and then ended up under a truck.

So yeah, we need some laws and ENFORCEMENT to make people think twice before opening that car door, pulling over in the bike lane, pulling out in traffic etc.
And as a motorcycle rider for 5 years now I can say that motorcycles need special treatment too .. ie; keep your damn distance you crazy moron car driver. We recently got to park motorcycles wherever cars can park on the street which is a huge improvement. And yes, motorcycles are more fuel efficient and easier on traffic congestion so people need to be rewarded for having less of an impact.

Do you think Cmass is the solution to this problem?


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