KD5NRH

$970/yr for insurance, registration and inspection. Part of that is better uninsured/underinsured and PIP coverage that covers me on the bike or in someone else's car, though. Gas and maintenance are entirely dependent on how much I drive, and depreciation is meaningless on a $700 car that has 150k+ miles at time of purchase.

A cheap DIY kit still ends up being $350+ with battery, so the overall project is well into the car price range, plus the battery is effectively a consumable that costs half or more of the kit price way too often.

An old beater car comes with a roof and some little thingies over the back doors so I can hang my suit jacket up and not be all wrinkly when I get to church; things even the nicest e-bike won't have.

gsa103

To fairly compare against a car a cheap DIY e-bike realistically is ~$1000.

$200 for CL donor bike
$100 for cables, brakes, etc
$500 e-bike kit and battery
$200 for helmet, lights and any other bits and bobs (saddles, grips, racks).

If you come from a bicycling background, chances are you have a donor bike and most of the other kit, but a new rider/commuter wouldn't have those items.

E-bikes really shine when you can take advantage of the fact that it can go and park in places where cars can't. The vast majority of the US is optimized for cars, so there's almost no advantage to an ebike.

KD5NRH

IOW, they rock for college students who can park ~20' from the door, 150' closer than the shuttle drop off and a half mile closer than the closest general student parking. (And yet the administrators can't understand why attendance falls off so badly when it's raining...or why so many students lock up to the soda machines under the awning instead of the rack out in the open.)

Robert C

I can beat that. I asked about e-bike parking when I was at CSU Chico. I was told that it had to be parked in a motorcycle space with a motorcycle permit. It was also forbidden to attach (lock) it to any campus fixture. I pointed out that the bike didn't have a kickstand, I was told that, I that case, I should lay it on the ground in the motorcycle space.

Needless to say, I didn't ride an e-bike to school. The "just drive a car" contingent here at bikeforums should see that as a win.

Dunbar

Compared to the $700 beater car I'd say a comparable e-bike would be a cheap fixie with a front hub motor and a throttle on it. It's not really fair to compare a mid-range e-bike to a beater car.

Also, energy prices are very relevant to ownership costs even at todays low gasoline prices. An e-bike uses 1/20 to 1/30 as much energy as a car and costs less than a penny per mile to power. The less you drive, the better candidate you are to replace your car with an e-bike.

Robert C

I do understand the point being made that th e-bike fails to present a compelling advantage. Note, I didn't say that it doesn't have an advantage, just that it fails to present one.

I still feel that the cyclist community is hindering e-bike sales and adoption with the "it's a motorcycle" or "just drive a car" being repeated to prospective e-bikers. When viewed as a form of a motorcycle, or auto, it clearly is inferior to nearly all alternatives. When viewed as a bicycle, that is a bit easier to ride, it is well accepted. As long as, in the US, the e-bike is not seen as a form of a bicycle, the e-bike is not going to be adopted, in mass, by commuters.

Do note, I do feel that the "cyclist" community, like many that are vocal here on bikeforums, want to hinder the e-bike. I feel that they fear that it will make their heroic feat o' manliness seem a bit less macho if they look around and nearly everyone is cycling.

KD5NRH

Also, gas motors here would make it a motorcycle. I have a 33cc scooter engine that would be perfect for bolting up to a $100 Craigslist steelie for my commute, but Texas has decided that that's a moped, which for all legal purposes is a motorcycle, (except that it may be legal on a "no motor vehicles" MUP as long as it's only pedaled there) and must be registered ($40/yr) and insured ($70/mo for liability, PIP and U/UMP - forget anything more, as it would cost more than replacing the bike several times a year) as such, plus a motorcycle endorsement on the DL of any rider, ($16, plus a class that's usually $125-200, plus $8 at each DL renewal, or $33 for motorcycle-only renewal without a regular DL) even if they only pedal and never start the engine. Never mind that it would be screaming past redline to hit 20mph on the level with 200lbs of me and a 5mph tailwind. Never mind that an electric motor providing that much assist doesn't make it a motorcycle. Never mind that it's around 24 times more fuel efficient and 1/10 of the weight (with the attendant reduction in emissions and road surface wear) of the smallest car I've ever owned.

Now what would be interesting, rather than spending a small fortune on a battery for an e-bike, would be to mount a hub motor and use the gas engine to generate electricity for it. That should still qualify as an e-bike, since the actual propulsion force is electric, though it might make for some interesting traffic stops.

Dunbar

Burning gas to power an electric bike would make zero sense, since it's so inefficient, unless you're trying to extend the range. You can go 30 miles on a properly equipped e-bike at 28mph for about 10-15 cents of electricity.

tattoogunman

OK, so go buy a beater junker car for a few hundred bucks, see how far it gets you, and stop talking about bicycles - what's your point and what are you trying to prove? That you can get a car for bicycle money? Duh, we get it. Heck, my local bike shop has pedal bikes on their floor right now for over $13,000 and that's new car money - it's all subjective on the individual. There are e-bikes on Craigslist in my area right now for $400 and less, so even they can be had at a fraction of the cost of a new e-bike. Heck, you can even go the Sondors route and get their new slim models for $500, so again, price is subjective.

I used to work on cars and while you can get away with beater cars, the overall total cost of ownership is going to far outweigh a simple bicycle if the car is really a junker and you are constantly doing repairs (especially if you cannot do them yourself). If your logic is that you can simply keep replacing one beater car with another one when it fails, rather than repairing it, how many beater cars are you going to end up buying before you are well over the cost of a $2000 - $4000 electric bike? If you repair it, how many major repairs before you pass the cost of a bike? It won't take many. It's night and day difference and, once again, your argument is ridiculous.

tattoogunman

So how did they justify that when an electric bicycle is not a motor vehicle or did you push the issue?

tattoogunman

I'm beginning to see the same things within the cycling community that I did during my many years of motorcycling - it's always an "us versus them" mentality when it comes to the different types. It was always cruiser riders versus sport bike guys versus the dual sport guys versus touring guys, etc.

An electric bicycle, to me, is better for commuting because you can arrive at work a lot less fatigued and sweaty than you would otherwise be. That should be a bonus for anyone who commutes any significant distances to work. I also find that having the electric motor getting me up to speed is advantageous in those rare situations where I am on a main road (generally I avoid them). There are plenty of reports coming out now showing the benefits of the electric bicycle and I think they are growing in popularity. We are not anywhere near the level of interest that they have overseas, but I think we are getting there. I still think the biggest issues they face here are these:

1) Cost - they are stupid expensive for the most part unless you buy a more "economical" brand or buy used. As has already been said on here, some of these bikes are priced at car/motorcycle/scooter money and that's just insane. Now as I've also said before, my local shop has traditional pedal bikes for well over ten grand, so it's not just electrics. However, if they are to be seen as an alternative to driving a car, they need to be priced better - a LOT better.

2) U.S. infrastructure - the vast majority of this country is simply not set up to be bike friendly and that is a direct result of our love of cars. Some cities are better than others and it's getting better, but the problem still stands. I can totally see someone not feeling comfortable on a bicycle on the roads when they've got a Cadillac Escalade or some Ford F350 monster truck bearing down on them from behind.

3) American culture - by that I mean lazy, plain and simple. Most people just don't want to deal with the hassle of commuting on a bicycle and give up their amenities (i.e. playing on their phones while driving, heat/AC, being able to eat, put on their makeup, shave, read a book, etc.) while driving. Sort of the same reason why our public transportation systems suck so bad (for the most part) in this country - people would still rather drive and spend two or more hours of their day in traffic than hop on a bicycle.

I think 1 & 2 are probably the predominant reasons why they haven't taken off and why bicycle commuting isn't as popular in general.

Robert C

This was before California clarified the status of e-bikes with the recent law.

2old

Just to prove it was possible to construct an electric bicycle inexpensively, I used a 48V, 1000w YESCOM direct drive kit ($200-$240 depending on the time of day, it seems --- go to ebay and put 48V, 1000w into the "browser"; their ebay site is accesseries), and a 52V, 10 a/h battery from Luna Cycle (about $350 at the time with charger, shipping and tax, probably $400 now). Converted a decent, but inexpensive bike and a year later still attains 32 mph (and pulling, but MY governor cut in --- probably not much faster though). Many riders state they have traveled 15,000 -20,000 miles on this motor.

Leisesturm

Humans in general, and Americans in particular, have completely normalized the practice of using thousands (thousands!) of pounds of steel and anluminum alloys, plastics and other materials to move one (mostly) average human around town. What if a person doesn't want to sign on to that general insanity?!

Stadjer

Overseas they are expensive too, and infrastructure is only better in some overseas countries. Maybe you're underestimating the 'us versus them' mentality. As I understand it, in America you are a cyclist, while in the bike-friendly countries of Europe, you're just a citizen who picks a certain means of transport for the occasion. Walk, bike, car, bus, train, moped, adding just another option like the E-bike does not really change much, because for most of those people the choice for a vehicle has no bearing on who they are, what they stand for or what group they belong to. Quite a few bicycles with petrolpower assist were sold in the 20th century, but they weren't as silent, comfortable and didn't have such nice and responsive torque, so it's not really surprising that sales went up with electric engines that are just much better for the purpose.

Some will use them instead of a car, some will use them instead of a normal bicycle or a moped. A lot of people prefer less car use for the benefit of their cities and some for the environment, and like the extra opion for others. A cyclist, as in a citizen who chose the bike for a certain occasion, will only care about the speed of E-bike, like 'could you go easy on the throttle if we are biking together, I don't want to sweat', 'or 'adapt your spead if it's busy please'. Discussions whether it's cycling are not must be very rare, as no one has a reason to care about the answer.

Grandpa1946

I am 69 years old. I started pedaling a Miami Sun Trike about a year ago. I have an economical car, 38 mpg, they hasn't broken once in 200,000 miles. Toyota Echo. I have a Honda Helix scooter with a training wheel kit, 68 mpg. I began pedaling because I was worried about passing the vision test for my last license renewal. I have discovered that my substantially paralyzed leg will pedal, and I like pedaling. My max on that trike is 14 miles. Originally, I was going to put a $1,200 front hub kit on the trike, but I easily passed the vision test. I pedal 3-6 miles almost every morning. Basically, I am prepared for the possible failing of the vision test. Unless that happens, I am just getting needed exercise and meditation in the morning sunrises. If necessary, the trike can easily become my primary transportation. I picked up a really nice Schwinn step through frame that I can put the EZ Rider Training Wheel kit on, and go faster and farther with less effort than the trike. EZ Rider lets one lean into turns and pedal using more body weight rather than just legs as on the trike.

If it becomes necessary, I will go E-Bike. Batteries are very expensive. A range less that 40-45 miles would be useless for me. I live 8 miles from town, and my doctors office is 30 miles round trip. If it is rated at 45 miles, you might get 35 miles. If it is rated at 20 mph, I'd count on 12-15 mph on the flat, no wind. Lead acid batteries aren't even an option.

I ride my Honda down into upper teen temps sometimes. How much does one choose to suffer unnecessarily?

cycleops612

"average figure is closer to $8k according to AAA. ". I rest my case, even if its a bit wrong.

A careless parking/speeding fine can be a quarter or half of a basic wage respectively here in sydney. Its open season on Motorists for revenue.

My excellent 24 speed mid drive is $US1500 all up. My only real expense bar a chain and a flat in 5 years has been at my option (rack/lights/locks...) or getting gypped by bike shop mechanics on "services". If u cant watch them work, find an honest mechanic.

LBlady111

This might have already been stated as I haven't read thru all the replies though my guess is first the population that would b using one, then the cost, and then maybe the portability.

The only E bike store we have around here is a Pedago store and those bikes are expensive. It seems that a big population that buys them here are seniors (like myself) who for whatever reason need some kind of assist with pedaling to cover a certain amount of territory.

I live close to the beach and we have bike paths on a number of our beaches as well as bike lanes are in many of our streets now so it's becoming easier to get further without having to transport one's bike on or in a vehicle should an E bike b utilized however a number of people I know decide while they may like the concept of the E bike they'd rather just rent it for the occasional ride than buy it as that's also possible at the Pedago store that's a few miles from where I live.

I find them pretty heavy myself although I had considered buying one when I was having a lot of trouble with tendonitis in both of my ankles. In the end I decided to get a folding bike instead and transport it in my vehicle and use it locally as it's lightweight and better suits my needs at this time.

spinningmagnets

Dear Grandpa1946...You are an inspiration. I want you to know that: by pedaling (even on a PAS bike set to maximum assist), you are doing yourself a favor that is very real. Your pituitary gland secretes HGH in response to exercise such as this. More "effort" is better, but ANY effort is better than sitting on the couch, and just watching TV.

HGH is the hormone responsible for "keeping you young" physically, and...it's not something that you can buy, or pay someone else to do for you.

Plus...It's not like you are pedaling an exercise bike in your living room. You can flow through the air, and see new things and new people every day, dependant on what path you decide to take, on any given morning.

You are my hero...and you are riding an electric bike.

InTheRain

I've seen more e-bike commuters since this thread started. I count 6 in my building now. It's very low, still. However, it seems like the ebike commuters are much more consistent about bicycle commuting than those that commute by regular bicycle (most seem to be fair weather bicycle commuters.)

I've found that my ebike is used 99 percent of the time for commuting. Recreational/fitness rides are done on my road bike. I commute with the ebike year round. Recreational/fitness rides seem to be April - October, so my carbon fiber road bike pretty much hangs in the garage for 5 months. I do commute on the road bike quite often July - September when the weather is nice (I don't have to carry layers of clothing for different types of weather.) So, yep... the ebike has become a dedicated commuter... and an excellent one at that!!

cycleops612

A good post ride in the rain, tho we are both a bit of topic.

Not being critical, just wish there were more philosophical big picture synthesis, not just data etc. on sites like these.

A similar sounding hobbyhorse of mine, is riding to work vs joining a gym to get fit. Riding is far better, as it isnt optional. No agonising or lapsing. u just do it cos its part of life. It doesnt require self discipline.

The reality now for most is we r so busy, how often are we free for a pointless pleasure ride? using a bike for lifes errands is another matter.

Necco2001

I commute for that very reason, to ride recreationally, which I do, I need to make time, riding to work is time already budgeted. And I hate gyms or exercising indoors.

profstack

Ha! I had a wonderful pleasure ride yesterday, that was therapeutic for body and mind. Nice weather, too. There was nothing pointless about it.

Tomorrow's commute might be wet, but so what? Just ride.

Rollfast

After the poor guy elsewhere here who had a kit go kerplooey in less than two days...


The joy is making it go with two legs. YOU are the engine. As long as you work good it's time to go.


And no TANKS and stripes. Sorry.

jon c. 

I think they do much better in Europe because a much higher percentage of people were commuting by bike in the first place. For people who don't already ride a bike and are just looking for the cheapest way to get around town, the little, low powered scooters seem the obvious answer. I see loads of them and there are many shops that sell them. If we have an e-bike retailer in town, I don't know where it is. You can get a scooter for well under $1,000. Maybe you can build an e-bike for similar money but I don't think most of the scooter riders are interested in building anything. They'd much rather hand over $700 and drive away.

To a bicycle commuter, an e-bike may seem a better commuting bicycle. To everyone else, they're just a much more expensive alternative to a scooter. That's going to be a tough hurdle to overcome.