Rick Imby

Slomotion and Nofart..

The whole point is most well designed ebikes do not use that much power and are virtually never ridden without power available. How many people that are not avid cyclists are going to go for a two hour ride? Ain't happening. Ebikes make riding rolling hills just like riding flat ground.
15 to 20 pounds extra on flat ground really doesn't matter with a bike.

I know neither of you can come close to keeping up with any ebike rider on a 1 hour ride unless they allow you to keep up. It takes very little extra energy to take a bike from 12 mph to 20 mph.

350htrr

Really?... Not in my experience. The rider may not need to put in more energy on an E-Bike but the motor does...

Level 1 assist and I go 68 miles/charge at 12 MPH & my input into the effort to make the bike go 12 MPH is 70%
Level 2 assist and I go 50 miles/charge at 14 MPH & my input into the effort to make the bike go 14 MPH is 57%
Level 3 assist and I go 37 miles/charge at 17 MPH & my input into the effort to make the bike go 17 MPH is 43%
Level 4 assist and I go 25 miles/charge at 20 MPH & my input into the effort to make the bike go 20 MPH is 15%.

My pedaling effort stays the same throughout, but my % input it take to keep the bike going at a certain speed changes as the motor input increases...

Rick Imby

So you ride with a Bionx. How many times have you run out of charge in an hour of riding starting with a full charge? With you riding and putting in a moderate effort could any top racer keep up with you for an hour with you using your electric assist too? I use an hour because very few non avid riders can be on a bike that long without pain.

Rick Imby

12 mph as a baseline might have been a little bit low

Rick Imby

My post has the rider putting in enough energy to go 12 mph not 70% of 12 mph like your numbers show. Your numbers are way off.

350htrr

Depends on terrain, on the flats, downhill's and tailwind, they would actually have the advantage since my assist cuts out at 20 MPH and I would be riding a 18Lb heavier bicycle than they would be and I can barely make 25 MPH and not for long... BUT, when there are some hills and or riding into the wind, That is a different story, 3 times in the last 4 years I have pushed someone into doing their best, them trying to drop me and not succeeding, and them not knowing I was on an E-Assist bike. And in reality, I could have passed them...

350htrr

If I put in enough energy to go 12 MPH myself then I would probably only need to have it on level 2 or 3 to go 20 MPH depending on terrain/wind. If I put in enough energy to go 20 MPH which I can then I wouldn't need to use even level1...

350htrr

On a BionX system pedal assist is proportional/pressure sensing set up... So, if the person pedaling is putting in lets say 10ftLbs into the pedaling effort to move the bicycle, then on level 1 the E-Assist would add 35%/3.5ftLbs, level 2 it would add 75%/7.5ftLbs level 3 - 150%/15ftLbs and level 4 - 300%.30ftLbs... If the person only puts in 1ftLbs or ups his game to 30ftLbs the % of assist would still be the same for each level, up to a max of 6.6ftLbs on level 1 to a max of 29.5ftLbs on level 4 and system cutting out assist at 20 MPH...

Perfectly executed, WWAAaayy better than any throttle system or crank rotation sensor system out there IMO.

Rick Imby

With the extra 18 pounds you would actually have an advantage downhill. It is awesome you are enjoying the boost. The extra 18 pounds makes very little difference on the flats---maybe some minor extra mechanical resistance from your tires being more heavily loaded. The weight makes a little negative difference also when you are changing speed to go faster. Riding over 20 mph under my own power is not real common or long lasting either---lol---

It would be my hypothesis that your system will not add any wind resistance or very little. I saw the number once that said at 20 mph on a high end road bike that wind resistance is over 95% and mechanical resistance from tires and gearing was the remaining.---Don't quote me on that ---it came from an old mind.

350htrr

Maybe in theory... BUT, my real life experience is, depending on the other rider, I ALWAYS get left in the dust going down hill, and sometimes get left in the dusts on flat ground... The only constant is, I ALWAYS catch up on the hills and sometimes/most times catch up on level ground if the wind is against us... Maybe/probably it's mostly due to my mountain bikes 2" knobbies and or my more upright sitting position that make that difference... In the end, power is power, and I always catchup and could actually pass them if I wanted to...

Rick Imby

You are baaaad picking on poor unsuspecting road bikers with your Knobbies on....

NoPhart

Not quite sure what you're getting at here? I'm not a power rider at all. I like pedal assist, but don't understand why designed ebikes don't generally offer a throttle "option" to buyers. If they did, they'd sell more ebikes.

As for ebikes vs. non-ebikes vs. pedal without power in general, there are many issues I've experienced first hand that ebike retailers gloss over, don't even mention or completely lie about. Range! And range anxiety are number one. This is a real thing on an ebike. Stated ranges are generally so far off reality it isn't even funny (+/-50% sometimes). That's why I always tell people asking about range to simply take the battery AmpHour X motor Voltage and divide by 20 to get a general range estimate.

I have yet to find an ebike that pedals like a bicycle without power. Many "claim" their ebike does, but I personally haven't found any that do. Some are better than others, but it still isn't clear to me if it's the crazy amount of extra weight, drag from the electric motors (be they non-geared, geared or mid-drive whatevers) or a combination of both.

My rides general fall into the 1-2 hour length and sometimes even longer when beach cruising. I would think just about anyones ride would be over an hour. That's only 8 miles at 8mph, 10 miles at 10mph, 12 miles at 12mph, etc... Using an ebike for transportation may result in short trips, but any "rides" would generally be over an hour. Personaly my rides typically are +/-20 miles which is right at the range anxiety level for most ebikes at full power with assist or throttle. Any beach cruiser doing 16-20 miles is going to be riding 2 hours. That's not a long ride.

Real world experience proved to me that the biggest advantage of an ebike is the assist you get when climbing a hill or pedaling into a headwind. That's where they really shine!

I know I personally can't keep up with a quality ebike speed wise on a regular bike, but that ebike rider better hope his electrified speed machine doesn't run out of juice. Because if you put me on a regular bike and the ebike rider on a out of power ebike, I just might come out ahead. Not because of my personal abilities, but because the other guy will be fighting tons of extra weight and resistance in most cases.

In short, ebikes aren't for everyone. I like them for what they are, but I like a good quality light weight non-ebike too. I now own both. The ebike is great for just getting out of the house with wind in your hair and the feeling of freedom, but range anxiety is ever present and more battery means more weight. That's why I personally prefer a regular bike for long rides and MTBing for the light weight agility. Ebikes shine in fun factor, headwinds and climbing, but at a cost of weight, drag, charging and that ever present RANGE ANXIETY. And let's not leave out PRICE ANXIETY either.

ADDED: My ideal ebike right now would be my Santa Cruz Hightower with a Focus Project-Y power system built in. Oh baby!!!

Rick Imby

Great Post...

tegnamo

Digging this thread up from the cemetary (almost...).

My follow-on question to all this was if ya'll had ever experienced a hub motor bike (throttle or no) that didn't provide any resistance when pedaling? Is that even possible?

I unfortunately don't have any hub motor riding experience, and any I would try and get would be provided by giant Bionx systems. I really want to figure out if there's a smaller 150W-200W hub motor out there that you really don't notice if not active. Consider a bike that would only offer small bits of help on hills or strong winds, etc and really not be meant for prolonged assistance. Would a ~150W motor be sufficient? And as I asked before, can it be "invisible" to the rider? Let's forget about battery weight just to keep things simple.

Edit: I just realized that I don't even know if there's a hub motor that does torque sensing (like a mid-drive). How do hub driven ebikes usually sense pedaling effort and meter out the power? If the hub motor has a torque sensor does it make the hub feel more "draggy"?

2old

My 350w front hub seems unobtrusive when the power is off, but weighs about seven pounds, so there must be some influence. BionX, which is one of few hub motors with torque sensing (BMS Battery reportedly has one too) owners report very little drag with their systems, but there's the extra weight. Leeds and Clean Republic have small front hub motors that could be your best bet; neither has torque sensors AFAIK.

Dunbar

My Cross Current (which has a torque sensor) feels pretty similar to a regular road bike to me when I'm just cruising along in level 2 or 3 out of 5. At the higher assist levels the extra speed requires me to coast more to avoid crashing which is not something I ever really worry about on my regular bikes. On an e-bike the controller is working in the background sending various amounts of power to the motor. My bike has a torque sensor but I find it doesn't take a lot of rider power to max out the power for that assist level. What I'll do to compensate is deliberately bump into the speed limit of that assist level. The controller starts pulling power when you get near the speed limit and progressively pulls more as you go faster. You sort of decide how hard you want pedal and reach an equilibrium point. The e-bike ends up feeling pretty constant in both directions whereas on my road bike I'm usually going easy in one direction and hard in the other. The 'smoothing' effect of electrical assist is really nice in windy conditions or up inclines. If you ever try riding your e-bike with no assist (mine is an absolute pig) you'll quickly realize why it doesn't feel like a regular bike until the power kicks in.

I can do about 35 miles on my Cross Current with the 500Wh battery and average similar speeds as a road bike. At 28mph it will only do about 15 miles though. The stock 375Wh battery was too small so my biggest advise to anyone getting an e-bike is don't buy one with a small battery if you want to ride it for more than an hour.

NoPhart

This is what I was refering to. I really want a mid-drive electric assist system that can be ridden without power with zero added drag for my MTB. The reason I want this is because 90% of the time it will be ridden without the power on and the other 10% I will apply the assist during steep climbs that my lugs can't handle.

So far none of the premade eMTB's meet that requirement. I think the best way to achieve a eMTB that pedals with little to no added resistance is to use a free-wheel crank. This combined with a small light weight motor and battery might work. You will still have to pull the extra 5lbs. of motor, but a smallish battery can be carried low on your backside to get that weight off the bike. Although a small 2lb. battery might not add that much more weight to the bike. Even at 7lbs. total it would be about 10lbs. lighter than the typical bolt-on mid-drive kit.

MTBers have very different E-bike needs than the typical commuter. You can't be way back into the outback without power if the E-bike doesn't pedal like a normal bike so you can get out. Plus the extra 15-20lbs. of weight makes a huge difference in how the bike performs. At least at 5-7lbs. that difference wouldn't be as dramatic.

Doc_Wui

We've got a beach cruiser with a 500W geared rear motor that comes in at 56 pounds. It was designed to be an ebike, so it's got the heavy rear dropouts, holes for internal wiring, and a box to hide the controller. Yes, it steers and rides heavy even when powered up, but I could pedal it. That would only happen if my wife had it and ran out of power. Then she would ride my bike.

On the other hand, my other e-bikes started as bicycles. Add 6-9 pounds of motor, and a 6 pound battery, sometimes only 3 pounds of battery. Their running weights range from 45 pounds to 55 pounds. No motor drag that I can tell. Feel like bikes to me, and I can pedal them an hour or two at geezer bike speeds (10-12 mph) w/o getting tired.

I will feel the weight when accellerating or going uphill, but it takes little added power to keep momentum/speed up on flat ground at moderate speeds. When I pull my grandkid in a bike trailer, I cannot feel that 50 pound load on the flats, and I sometimes wonder if my hitch broke off or if she jumped out. I keep her talking to me so I know she is there.

Necco2001

AFAIK, the Specialized Levo is the only mid drive bike out there with zero motor drag when the motor is not on, it disengages somehow. I've read that, I can't confirm it by first hand experience. I'd expect that to be more common as the bikes evolve, it makes sense.

Dunbar

Geared hub motors, like my bike has, freewheel but if you lift the wheel up and spin it up to speed it doesn't keep spinning forever like a normal bike wheel (it stops pretty quick in comparison.) Something tells me that even with a perfectly freewheeling mid-drive system a 50+lb. bike is still going to feel like a pig without assist. My controller recently stopped working (had it replaced under warranty) and so I had to pedal my bike without assist for a few blocks. If I had to ride several miles like that I think I would Uber it home.

Here's a 35lbs. carbon fiber e-bike but it only has a 316Wh battery for $4k. I would like to ride it and see if it is really any easier to pedal w/o power. I guess with a 20mph top speed under assist range could be decent if the rider is sharing the workload.

https://www.surface604.com/ebikes/or...electric-bike/

350htrr

I have pedalled my BionX many a times, for many a Km's , and never felt any drag with the motor off, even pedalled up to about 40Km/Hr and the motor cuts out assistance at 20Km, no noticeable drag except the extra weight of the system is there... Could there be some drag? Certainly, but I don't notice any. Rides just like a normal bicycle. To keep on subject, I will repeat, a properly working and properly set up pedal assist with a torque sensor is worlds above a rotation sensor or a throttle type of assist system... JMO So, to answer the OPs question, it take a torque sensor and a system that can be set up as the rider wants, to make the bike feel like a normal bike when he or she is riding it, or make the rider feel like a superman...

zze86

I commute with an Easy Motion Evo Jet, typically 20-25 miles roundtrip. The weight is more of an issue than drag from the hub, especially when it's loaded up with gear. I typically ride it at either 1/4 or 2/4 power assist. 1/4 assist gives me parity with a townie bike considering the bike's weight. 2/4 power and I'm about parity with my road bike. I usually don't go into 3/4 or 4/4 assist since it messes up my cadence.

I am technically faster (top speed) with my road bike than with the ebike due to the speed limiter and weight on the ebike, but I can sustain higher speeds for a longer amount of time with the ebike. During my commute in (which is mostly downhill) I'm ~10 minutes faster with the ebike than the roadie. Coming back I'm ~20min faster than the road bike. The last section is killer! ~3miles of increasing slope up to 10% for 1/4mile!

My bike does having the throttle option which I don't use often but am glad it is there when I do use it which is usually when I eat just before heading out and I have no energy cause my body is too busy processing food. :\

DSLacey

Agree. I also have a Bionx system that works perfectly as pedal-assist. I rarely use the throttle button. (It drains the battery too rapidly anyway.)

NoPhart

I sure hope things improve in this regard. Haven't riden the new mid-drive Levo. I'm actually thinking of adding a light weight geared mid-drive to my killler MTB just for hill climbing. The rest of the time it will just be dead weight, so a good freewheel crank is what I'm thinking will give the least drag; won't even have to turn the gear or chain going to the motor. The old school brushed MY1018 that Currie used to use on their eZip Trail bike looks promising at about about 4.5lbs. pushing 450W 36V from a small light weight battery. Oddly enough, this setup would be throttle only, but can be limited to while pedaling. In other words, the throttle ends up being the power control for a pedelec. If you aren't pedalling, the power level control (throttle) won't work. How's that for entering into the deep abyss of gray area? I'm at 30lbs now and would be happy if I can keep it under 37lbs. The nice thing is it will be setup for easy chain removal and total motor/battery removal as well.

I've started the design and project, but getting much better at riding my new crabon FS MTB long distance and even climbing better. Time in the saddle sure does increase endurance!

Doug5150

I fail to understand why so many e-bike people are willing to accept unreasonable restrictions on what is essentially a harmless activity.

The general speed limit for interstate highways in the USA is 65 MPH, and yet there is not one single car company or motorcycle company that only sells vehicles electronically restricted to that speed. Roads already have posted speed limits, and police give out tickets to people who don't adhere to those limits. Even the smallest, slowest scooters and motorcycles are built with engines powerful enough to exceed speed limits on most public roads, and the smallest, slowest cars are built with engines powerful enough to exceed the fastest highway speed limits in the country.

Motorized bicycles are the slowest, lowest-powered motorized vehicles on the road; they likely cause far less damage, injuries and deaths than any other class of road-legal vehicles.
Why do you think that they need tougher regulations than everything else?
It makes no sense at all.
It is a silly issue for legislators to even bother with, and if police in your town have time to bother motorized bicycle users--then your town simply has too many police on the payroll.

Somebody lied to you.
You don't need a pedal-assist-only law.
You don't need a power limit law, at least as long as the authorities continue to ignore that issue with cars and motorcycles.
You don't need a motorized bicycle speed-limit law, every public road is already marked with speed limit signs already.

Because of their lack of weather protection and limited carrying capacity, motorized bicycles already have big drawbacks to their usefulness.
Why accept laws that make them even less so?
You are giving up something important to you, that doesn't interfere with anyone else, and getting literally nothing in return.