NoPhart

Riese & Müller Delite e-bike features dual batteries, belt drive, and full suspension (WOW!)

Riese & Müller Delite e-bike features dual batteries, belt drive, and full suspension : TreeHugger



What an interesting effort to create an e-Adventure bike that can do it all. Very nice design and look. Functional yet sporty. Quality Bosch Performance CX power system. Belt drive with IGH option. Full suspension with pannier rack capability. Huge range. I’m impressed!

Too bad the price is through the roof, it isn’t a 29er and doesn’t have a throttle option (that I know of). If this e-bike was $4KUS and throttled, I’d be all over it.

Is there anything else out there that is close to this?

BruceMetras

Chris at Propel would be one to ask.. they carry Riese & Mueller .. lots of models Models

NoPhart

Great model selection at the Propel site and a Rohloff option too.

Are there any non-electric full suspension bikes out there that resemble this?

NoPhart

I found this Panamericana Xplore with pinion gearbox full suspension pedal contraption:

Panamericana Xplore

I can see myself packing my fly rod and camping gear for a weekend onto the Wiese Muller and heading up the Eastern Sierra's to a secluded brook trout lake. Hummm...

NoPhart

I see the Panamericana Xplore comes in electric too.

Panamericana eXplore

Don't quite understand a rear hub motor attached to a pinion gear box that doesn't leverage the gears? Seems like something got lost in the engineering when they slapped a battery and hub motor on it...

BruceMetras

Pinion has a pretty good explanation .. HERE

NoPhart

1-2-3 and it all works wonderfully (lol…), but the motor is the hub of the rear wheel, so it turns the rear wheel at whatever speed no matter what gear. Not good use of the power source IHMO. If you are ghost pedaling to engage the power source the rear wheel spins at the speed setting indicted which is way more than any human input into the 1-2-3. It will assist, but again not good use or leverage of the power source IMHO.

And here they talk about the huge advantages of NOT HAVING THE WEIGHT IN THE REAR HUB regarding the pinion gearing and unsprung mass.

Panamericana Xplore
“The combination of a full-suspension touring bike with the Pinion gearbox is ideal, since the chain stay and wheel exhibit greater deflection sensitivity thanks to the reduced unsprung mass and are relieved of drive influences due to varying chain tension starting points. The low, central center of gravity and a lighter rear wheel improve handling, suspension and riding dynamics.”

Seems it just isn’t the best design, especially for off-road hill climbing. A mid-drive is a better use and placement of the electric power source so the gearing is leveraged IMHO.

I’d rather have the Reiser Muller with a Rohloff than a pinion gearbox with a hub motor, but maybe that’s just me…

BruceMetras

Absolutely.. I'm sold on mid-drives ..

NoPhart

Maybe someone will perfect this



and combine the pinion and electric motor for the best balance.

NoPhart

This video states the Delite is available in a 27.5” OR 29” build, although I don’t see that on their website.


It’s interesting that the stand-over height on all three sizes is the same at 80.6cm (~32.5” – Wondering if that is a typo?). That’s high for some people, but fine for us six-footers.

The only real downside I see regarding the Delite is the same thing that plagues all current e-bikes, weight is at 60lbs. That’s double a typical FS MTB and likely doesn’t include the extra battery and other options.

The rack is rated for 44lbs. and gross vehicle weight is rated at 309lbs. Probably good enough for riders up to 250lbs. naked (?).

Get the weight down to 35-40lbs. with a Rohloff 29er and 1,000Wh worth of batteries, and the OTD price under $4K and I'd be all over it.

chris@propel

I think Karen mixed this one up. It's only available with the 650b wheels. Either 2" wide on their standard models or 2.4" on the GT, GX and Mountain models. The standover height is the same on all the bikes. They needed the space to accommodate the dual battery setup.

I think their pretty conservative with their weight ratings, but I think one of the challenges is what the rear shock is rated for.

Court from Electric Bike Review is out in NY right now and we just did a video review of the Delite. You can check it out below:

Also - If anyone is in the NYC area and wants to meet the co-creator of the Delite. He'll be at my shop for a launch party this Saturday from 6-9. Here is a link for more info: https://www.facebook.com/events/1093932640750277/

NoPhart

Thanks for the accurate details Chris. Made it through the whole 42 minutes...

Didn't hear any mention about a throttle option currently or in the future. Do you know if RM will ever consider that for the US market? Here in California we have the Class-2 E-bike category that allows a throttle combined with the 20mph speed limit.

powell

you can build similar ebike for the fraction of that R&Miller bike.
Bafang mid drive would be the choice for cheap.

chris@propel

It's really a question for Bosch, but we've heard many representatives answer this question and the answer has always been no and I don't have any reason not to believe that. Most that have spent some time with the Bosch system report that they don't miss the throttle at all. Keep in mind I don't sell throttle bikes in my shop, but that's partly due to NYC regulations. About 80% of the bikes in my shop are Bosch powered as well.

Joe Remi

Bosch has said they will never offer a throttle. The motor was built to assist a bicycle rider with pedaling a bicycle; that's what they believe in.

NoPhart

If true, that's really too bad. A throttle is a wonderful override option to have for PAS, cadence or torque sensors. Very surprised the Bosch team doesn't get that. IMHO torque sensors are over rated and somewhat odd feeling, but I'm sure you get used to it over time. It's just not smart to exclude the throttle option (not requirement) with the size of the California market.

NoPhart

I think they really got the general FS frame design with rack right on this visually appealing E-bike, but the heavy weight is just too much. It's unfortunate that the weight isn't about 1/2 to 2/3 what it is. At that heavy weight it just seems like a 1970's moped with an electric motor that you "have" to pedal.

I think they need to make this much lighter (and cheaper) to appeal to the masses. At least the FS with rack design is awesome!

350htrr

I'm sure they do get it, but they chose to try to keep their E-assist closer in the using of the assist to a bicycle, rather than moving the assist closer to being a moped... In other words they are honoring the "spirit" of an E-Assist legally being considered like a bicycle, not a moped legally being considered a bicycle...

PatrickGSR94

I currently use my throttle to help me get going, but mainly because my gearing and chainline sucks on my current BBS02 setup with stock 44t chain ring. I'm hoping once I get a 42t Lekkie Bling Ring that I can make better use of my lower gears and maybe remove the throttle altogether.

350htrr

NOT, if set up properly... BionX has it perfect, level 1 you feel like you are pedaling a normal bicycle with the wind at your back, level 2 you feel like you are fitter than ever, level 3 you are a racer, at level 4 you are a super duper bicyclist, it all feels like you are doing the whole ride all by yourself, it's so smooth and connected to the effort you are putting into the pedaling...

Oh, and as to the throttle and Bosch wanting to keep it as a bicycle here in N America "may" actually hurt their sales... But I for one applaud their decision and hope their view prevails in the long run. A system that works like the BionX and probably the Bosch (never having ridden one), actually doesn't need a throttle at all, all you needs do is put it in level 4 and voilà, off you go like if you were the winner of the Tour de France, hardly needing to be putting in any effort... I actually do have a throttle on my set up, I find it superfluous over all, probably use it less than 0.1% of the time, even then I don't need to, just sometimes that lazy I guess.

kickstart

My bike has a 28t X 34t low gear @ 21.7 gi, and I still use the throttle to start off on steep hills.

Cadence sensor, torque sensor, it doesn't matter, one still has to get moving, and start pedaling for them to work, a throttle fills that hole.



IMO, its arrogant, and ignorant to say what others should want, or need because it's not what we personally want, or need.

350htrr

Yes, I know I'm coming off as arrogant, maybe even obnoxious, overbearing, or maybe, I just have a pet peeve about throttles on "bicycles"...

kickstart

Since you realize you have a problem, maybe you should learn how to control it.

It's simply rude, and inconsiderate to spew ones OT peccadilloes ad nauseam, as its annoying, distracting, and counter productive.

350htrr

Actually I AM, have been, cutting back on my comments about throttles, especially in threads where that is not the subject... I am only replying to others who make comments about throttles since a few weeks now, and will continue to do so... NoPhart was commenting on throttles and since he was the thread starter I answered his Q/statement.

NoPhart

IMHO manufacturers that don't offer a throttle "option" (give user choice) clearly don't get it at all. Torque sensors work pretty well if all you do is get on your E-bike and ride in a straight line on a semi-smooth surfaces with smooth rounded corners. It's probably fine for most commuting, but when it comes to an eMTB everything changes because of the complicated surfaces you are riding on and the balance that is needed; much of which comes from pressure on the pedals when you don't want power applied. Even a crank sensor (non-torque, just rotation) can cause crazy problems at times. Some of those times are in simple slow speed corners on asphalt or when just adjusting pedals location for an upcoming turn. The pedal movement applies power, which you have to react to; typically with the brakes. Not desired.

Here's simple example of a torque sensor causing a (probably tourist rental) rider to crash on the beach boardwalk which I watched happen. She was going really slow and trying to stop at a right side curb on the boardwalk. As she approached the curb she put her right foot down off a right pedal at the bottom. I have to assume she wasn't using the brake, because she wasn't hardly even moving. As her right foot hit the ground her left foot started its' down stroke and the bike starting moving forward. The power extended her arms making it difficult to reach the brakes (if she even thought of that) and she had to raise her right foot to start hopping to keep the bike under control. Every time she lifted her right foot, her weight went to the left foot applying the power. As you can imagine, she got about 3-4 hops in and then went down hard on her right side on the cement.

Clearly experience played a roll here, but this illustrates how in certain situations you end up getting power when you don't want it. Off-road this issue quadruples and braking (or dragging the brake) to cut the motor isn't the optimum solution in so many instances. Torque sensors and even crank sensors can feel really strange and not natural until you are at speed. It's the slow speeds, cornering, adjusting pedal location and odd terrain where throttles shine.

IMHO throttles are the safest power application method, but I don't like having to hold a throttle on while just riding, so a combination of power application methods that are up to the user is by far the best solution. When mountain biking I personally want the same MTB experience as without a motor for control, but assist only during steep climbs that are physically difficult. That is very different than what I prefer for commuting or beach cruising.

Everyone has their personal favored method of power application and that method may vary depending on where and how they are riding that day. Choice is good for the rider and sales.

If manufacturers won't give choice, then they clearly don't get it at all. Get on a E-bike or eMTB and go ride with variable options.