2old

This forum is better than any that I'm aware of primarily (IMO) because the Moderator(s) are superior. The only constant nagging problem (FOR ME) is the individual who gets on his soapbox every chance to promulgate his theory that throttles are taboo. He's not a US citizen so he should mind his own business about our laws which allow them. The other disgusting comment(s) are from the person who constantly harps about Chinese crap which insults many members of the forum who use their products either in e-bikes or other products. My advice is that if you're as tired of this as I am, just inform the Moderator(s) each time they spew their bilge.

speedy25

Theres an exclamation point at the bottom of each handle. Click on it and report when you see a post that is against the rules of the forum. I've used it. If others do too, the mods will have an easier time to do their job here and keep our forum great.

-SP

unterhausen

neither of those two posters sounds like they are violating forum rules. I suggest you put them on ignore.

2old

Thanks, didn't know that was possible on this forum, but completed the process.

kickstart

Naturally moderators are the final word, but the effects of threads being derailed by those who are continuously disruptive can't be resolved by ignoring them.

2old

KS, I agree, but hitting the exclamation point hadn't helped (looks like until now as one probably won't derail many more threads). Hope the other gets the hint.

BillyD

If the users do their part and ignore the instigator, and report him when genuine violations occur, then we can take care of it. Ideally, if nobody ever responds to a provocateur, he'll eventually stop disrupting . . . . . or we'll nail him, whichever comes first.

2old

Thanks, I'll do my part; this is another example of an exemplary Mod.

kickstart

Same here, and hopefully this will put it to rest.

speedy25

Thanks for chiming in Billy D!

-SP

NoPhart

I see the recent "no throttle" thread got shut down before I could comment... For good reason I suppose. The odd thing is you can have a throttle that only works when you are pedaling too, if pedaling is Europe's big concern.

Now what can we do about the constant advertising that has to load every time I change pages? What A PITA! I can hardly browse while logged on because of it. And the repeated interruptions while typing are unbearable. I sometimes use WORD to type, then copy and paste. I find myself only browsing when logged off and security at the highest level here and on MTBR because of it.

Sorry for my additional "constant garbage" of a different kind rant on using this site. I will say MTBR is even worse...

BruceMetras

You could become a Premium member for a yearly pittance.. you get a little Red star by you name and no ads across any of your devices...

dilkes

I don't see any ads here. I am using Chrome under Windows 7 and have the Adblock extension installed.

slomoshun

Try the BRAVE browser. It blocks the ad dumps and trackers and runs way faster than the spam browsers.

https://brave.com/downloads.html


Note:
I have no connection to BRAVE other than being delighted that it works.
It happens rarely but some sites, generally stores, are unhappy when they can’t get into your computer during checkout, so don’t delete your old browser.

Robert C

I wrote this as a response to the other thread, the thread got closed while I was writing it . . .

I can see both sides of this and believe that both sides are sincere. 350 fears another kill off. A kill off is differentiated from a die off, where a trend fizzles out due to a lack of interest; in a kill off, some act of legislation ends a trend.

He has stated that he fears what happened to mopeds in the early eighties. For those who don't recall. The nation faced a severe fuel shortage. One response to this is that many people started riding mopeds. They were, effectively, unregulated. I still have one with a city bicycle license label on it.

They were being used in the place of autos by many people . . . obviously something had to be done to stop that.

The solution was to declare them to be motor vehicles. This added the licensing and insurance requirements, creating, for all intents and purposes, the expenses of a second car. The result was that they all but disappeared, the change was nearly overnight.

I feel his fear has a solid historic foundation. However, there is a difference this time. This time there has been an effort to address the issue proactively. This is why laws, like those in California, are so important. These laws serve to define what an e-bike is, something that did not happen in the moped boom of the late 70's.

The moped boom occurred in a legislative vacuum. The moped filled a hole in the law. On the other side, the e-bike is being crafted to comply with, and create, laws.

What that law will say is the issue that 350 wants to see filled with his pet definition. On the other hand, I feel that the definition used by California is well thought out. A place that I do agree with 350 is that the "high power" e-bikes that dominate the ES forum may have the effect of turning opinion against e-bikes as they may become a means of skirting motorcycle laws.

That being said, a small number of hooligans should not be permitted to shape an entire transportation solution. I support performance limits, not power limits. I have seen many cases where the presence of a throttle has made the e-bike significantly more rideable.

We agree that there needs to be a definition, we just disagree on what that definition should be.

. . . we also disagree on one other point. I hold that this debate does not need to be inserted into nearly every e-bike thread . . .350 clearly feels that it should be part of nearly every e-bike thread. that is a strong point of disagreement.

2old

RC, (TO ME) that's like saying ban automobiles because some can (and do) achieve 200 mph. Those ES "bikes" are not bikes, they're mopeds or whatever and should be licensed and insured. BTW, looks like at least two more states have adopted the CA, UT, & NC law, so I don't foresee any changes for those states in the near future. Why should we change a good law? For instance, Class 2; who cares if someone is going 20 mph by PAS or throttle?

kickstart

Robert, Growing up in the 70's and seeing the moped boom and bust, I think there's several important differences between mopeds and e-bikes.

Mopeds were noisy, smelly, and dirty (even more so after we had our way with them). E-bikes are silent, clean, and green.

Mopeds were primarily used by pre driving age teens, and students when a car wasn't an option. E-bikes are primarily used by adults who consciously choose them in place of a car, or low impact recreational riding and exercise.

Mopeds were significantly faster and more powerful than off the shelf, legal e-bikes. E-bikes that match a mopeds capabilities are limited to DIY builds.

Mopeds were relatively inexpensive compared to available options. E-bikes are expensive, and quickly enter the price range of used, and new motorcycles.

Mopeds had virtually effortless extreme range capabilities at 100 to 150 mpg. E-bike range is limited, and requires forethought for longer trips.

Mopeds were grudgingly tolerated by the legal establishment at best and quickly lost favor. E-bikes outside of a few places are accepted and welcome, and are gaining favor with the legal establishment to the point of being promoted as green transportation in some locations.

I'm not too concerned with the ES crowd, they're a small group of tinkerers that spend a lot of time, effort, and money to make high power e-bikes that in reality have the capabilities of a modest scooter.

I do agree there should be regulations, and that California got it right, and that it should be the universal standard for the US.

2old

The thing that scares me about DIY ebikes is the batteries; mine are stored in an ammo can outside my house and are charged in the middle of the yard. I suspect that the battery suppliers who resell Chinese batteries, have little idea what they're getting quality-wise, and little to no recourse (IMO). I've already had two discrepant batteries (both Headway AFAIK); my "good" battery stayed warm after the last charge, so is relegated to the can. ES has two battery fire stories today. The OEM companies have a lot more to lose and I trust their products.

gsa103

Keep in mind that the ES people are basically the minority. As long a "e-mopeds" still cost $5k and require a lot of assembly, they'll never take-off.

For reference, it's basically illegal to do any sort of performance mods to a car in the state of CA. Any non-OEM parts in the intake or exhaust of the engine requires those parts to be CARB certified (which almost no one does). Thousands of people blatanly violate that law, but they're in minority because of the hassle involved. As long as the 1+ HP ebikes are a hassle, it's not a big deal.

slomoshun

That is very real and I side with 350 on it. If you follow ES, some of those electron creations can push 50 to 60 mph. As more of the hot-rod info is published, more of the populace will go there. Government is about revenue collection to feed itself [in the guise of safety], so registration, licensing, and restrictions are imminent if eBike limits continue to be violated by the minority.

jon c. 

I suspect part of the fear is that this will change in the future and if the more powerful machines become commonplace, regulation will soon follow. And that smaller units will get swept up into a broader category. I can't guess what direction the law might take, but I would guess that power and speed will become much less expensive and thus more popular in the future.

2old

What I can't fathom is why individuals would ride such an illegal monstrosity; considering the legal ramifications if they're in some sort of an accident. Also, it's possible to purchase a 48V, 1000w direct drive kit for less than $200, a separate higher voltage controller for $100-$150 and a 72V battery for about $600. Conclusion, 45+ mph.

kickstart

I'm on the road 8 to 10 hours a day in the Seattle metropolitan area, in nice weather I see 100+ bikes, and maybe 5 e-bikes a day. I've never seen an ES type of creation being operated at high speed.

In the big picture, those ES builders represent an infinitesimal number of people creating machines that will never be produced or sold by the mainstream sources as they fall outside the federal guidelines, and state laws, and will always be exceedingly rare.

Favorable legislation for e-bikes is continuing to grow and spread, and I see no evidence of any unfavorable legislative activity. The fears being alluded to here seem to be a product of internet forums because of a few garrulous people that has little if anything to do with reality.

slomoshun

Yours, or everyone else's?

kickstart

The reality of probable legislative action.