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Old 06-24-07, 03:58 PM   #1
EbikeHawaii
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Whats the farthest ebike distanse on 7 ah of battery power?

At any voltage from 36 to 72 volts the speed and distance can remain the same.Going faster than in this video of course your range will go down and you might too if you get a blowout. LOL Actualy this 20 mile trip was done on 6 amp hours of total battery power.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3
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Old 06-24-07, 10:08 PM   #2
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You do realize that a single set of battery cells can be wired to make either (for example) 6 amp-hours at 72 volts or 12 amp-hours at 36 volts, don't you?

Amps and amp-hours alone tell you nothing about energy usage.
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Old 06-25-07, 01:09 AM   #3
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You do realize that a single set of battery cells can be wired to make either (for example) 6 amp-hours at 72 volts or 12 amp-hours at 36 volts, don't you?

Amps and amp-hours alone tell you nothing about energy usage.
Do you relize that at 72 volts or 36 volts you can go the same distance with the same watt hours and speed ? Or you can go faster at 72 volts if you wish and
use twice the watt hours with the same amp hours ? LOL Or as you say you can paralel two 36 volt packs and go 40 miles on 6 amp hours at this pace.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

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Old 06-25-07, 05:04 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by cerewa
You do realize that a single set of battery cells can be wired to make either (for example) 6 amp-hours at 72 volts or 12 amp-hours at 36 volts, don't you?

Amps and amp-hours alone tell you nothing about energy usage.
Agreed, watt hours would be a much more useful measurement.
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Old 06-26-07, 04:02 PM   #5
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Agreed, watt hours would be a much more useful measurement.
Amp hours X nomimal Voltage is easy to figure out.
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Old 06-26-07, 06:54 PM   #6
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Amp hours x actual voltage is more accurate. High capacity battery packs will put out significantly more than nominal voltage when lightly loaded and make efficiency calculated your way seem better than it actually is.
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Old 06-27-07, 12:11 AM   #7
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Aactual watthours from a watthour meter works fine too but after over 20,000 miles of checking the voltage, watt hours and amphours on 1000s of trips I pretty know how most ebike batteries work including many Li Poly cells..
Thanks for the tips.

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Old 06-27-07, 01:44 AM   #8
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At beginning of one of your videos it shows two batteries on top of frame in front of the seat, how did you build the structure to put them there? and were they the unsafe lithium or safe lithium batteries like dewalt lithium batteries uses or the unsafe like RC people use?
thanks
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Old 06-27-07, 01:39 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by krushnoi
At beginning of one of your videos it shows two batteries on top of frame in front of the seat, how did you build the structure to put them there? and were they the unsafe lithium or safe lithium batteries like dewalt lithium batteries uses or the unsafe like RC people use?
thanks
They are fastened to a angle aluminum frame I made that are on each side of the cross bar.With lipo batteries rated for 30 C discharges and a BMS used at a tipical 1 C discharge they are lot safer than gasoline! RC users had some of the older lipo packs flame out mostly because of the chemistory being different along with charging them too fast at high rates soon after being discharged in 10 minutes.

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Old 06-27-07, 04:41 PM   #10
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It doesn't appear you can pedal very much on your e-bike. Is that the case? You can get a lot more distance if you put in about 100-150 watts of pedalling. You can get even more if you changed to smooth tires.

Bionx's 36V Li-Ion battery is 9.6Ah. So with 360Wh, how far can your bike go? I'm trying to get an idea how efficient yours is compared to bionx.
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Old 06-27-07, 04:44 PM   #11
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RC lipos are mostly damaged by too high a discharge rate, overcharging (wrong cell count or over 1C) or overdischarging. In 3 years I've only had a couple of cells puff, and they were my fault. Out of over 30 or so.
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Old 06-28-07, 03:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by adamtki
It doesn't appear you can pedal very much on your e-bike. Is that the case? You can get a lot more distance if you put in about 100-150 watts of pedalling. You can get even more if you changed to smooth tires.

Bionx's 36V Li-Ion battery is 9.6Ah. So with 360Wh, how far can your bike go? I'm trying to get an idea how efficient yours is compared to bionx.
Lithium batteries have short lives if they are discharged beyond 80% of the packs rating.Just like most other batteries.So when a battery is rated at 10 amp hours it only provides for 8 amp hours or 288 watt hours at 36 volts inless you want to ruin your batteries fast.

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Old 06-29-07, 09:05 AM   #13
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@Robbie: donīt know what you are speaking about here, also not what this should have to do with the topic of the thread ?!?

have seen your name today 3 times, and 3 times you answered to a post from EbikeHawaii in a rude tone with some strange stories (...committed suicide by jumping into your damned volcano after)

iam from Austria, maybe my English is too bad, and i do not realy get if this is for real, jokes, if you have a problem with EbikeHawaii or if you are friends and this is joking ?!???)

however: for me
- and i think i know a little bit about lipos for myself (using them 5 years in rc-hobby, used sofar about 10 different brand (from kokam (3 generations) to thunderpower (4 generations), Xcell, hyperion, Flightpower, Polyquest, a lot of Konion (Sony), A123 Fepo4 M1, ....) -
EBikeHawaii seems to be very competent when it comes to batteries (lipos) and drivetrains..
for example the hub-motor discussion and the efficience of these kind of motors at a hill.. (which is very bad)

so when i comes to competence i think EBikeHawaii owns most people here around..

the only thing which is maybe a little bit weird:
when EBikeHawaii is argueing about his bikes he sounds sometimes a little bit bigheaded / arrogant..

i think this is maybe just so when reading it in the forums and in real life you would not have that feeling when speaking with him..

and maybe its also this way, like fighting against windmills:
when you know that your concept is better because tested and compared and there are still people knowing obviously less about the facts and nevertheless donīt believe, it can be hard...
some people can take this away with an angels patience and arguee again and again and again,
others can not... (and i think EBikeHawaii is not such a patience person )

EBikeHawaii: hope i made not a affront to you now..

i really respect your posts of facts and datas !
they are in many ways similar to my experiences (Lipos, ...) and my knowledge
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Old 06-29-07, 10:09 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by adamtki
[SIZE=2]It doesn't appear you can pedal very much on your e-bike. Is that the case? You can get a lot more distance if you put in about 100-150 watts of pedalling....
This is exactly the mentality I do not understand about e-bike enthusiasts--that you would spend so much money for a motor system, and then still have to pedal to get a useful range out of it anyway. ....Kind of like saying your car gets 80 mpg if you get out and push it the first 40 miles.
~
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Old 06-29-07, 10:50 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Doug5150
This is exactly the mentality I do not understand about e-bike enthusiasts--that you would spend so much money for a motor system, and then still have to pedal to get a useful range out of it anyway. ....Kind of like saying your car gets 80 mpg if you get out and push it the first 40 miles.
~
Why do you have a problem with ebikers spending money? I've bought plenty of parts for my other (pedal only) bikes, some admittedly with questionable dollar to value ratios. I was just looking at road bikes yesterday in the $5k range, but it's pretty hard to justify that sort of cash when it will be only slightly quicker and a few lbs lighter than the steel road bike I have now which is easily worth less than $1k.

On the other hand, having ridden some $$ road and mtn bikes, I can appreciate them for what they are. It's not about speed per dollar, it's about the overall riding experience. What is your definition of useful range anyways?
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Old 06-29-07, 11:40 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Kraeuterbutter
@Robbie: donīt know what you are speaking about here, also not what this should have to do with the topic of the thread ?!?

have seen your name today 3 times, and 3 times you answered to a post from EbikeHawaii in a rude tone with some strange stories (...committed suicide by jumping into your damned volcano after)

iam from Austria, maybe my English is too bad, and i do not realy get if this is for real, jokes, if you have a problem with EbikeHawaii or if you are friends and this is joking ?!???)

however: for me
- and i think i know a little bit about lipos for myself (using them 5 years in rc-hobby, used sofar about 10 different brand (from kokam (3 generations) to thunderpower (4 generations), Xcell, hyperion, Flightpower, Polyquest, a lot of Konion (Sony), A123 Fepo4 M1, ....) -
EBikeHawaii seems to be very competent when it comes to batteries (lipos) and drivetrains..
for example the hub-motor discussion and the efficience of these kind of motors at a hill.. (which is very bad)

so when i comes to competence i think EBikeHawaii owns most people here around..

the only thing which is maybe a little bit weird:
when EBikeHawaii is argueing about his bikes he sounds sometimes a little bit bigheaded / arrogant..

i think this is maybe just so when reading it in the forums and in real life you would not have that feeling when speaking with him..

and maybe its also this way, like fighting against windmills:
when you know that your concept is better because tested and compared and there are still people knowing obviously less about the facts and nevertheless donīt believe, it can be hard...
some people can take this away with an angels patience and arguee again and again and again,
others can not... (and i think EBikeHawaii is not such a patience person )

EBikeHawaii: hope i made not a affront to you now..

i really respect your posts of facts and datas !
they are in many ways similar to my experiences (Lipos, ...) and my knowledge
I think this post just about sums up some major issues here. Plenty of expertise, plenty of foolish misjudgements and provocation of the authorities and others, plenty of boasting, and plenty of stupid infighting and name calling. Pity really. Why would someone whose activities have already raised some bad publicity and a ban, then say gleefully that he was going to now going to stalk the Segway tours on his new electric go-ped? I can't understand that any more than the people who taunt the same fellow about past competitions.

It would seem to me that a spirit of cooperation, enquiry and sharing experience would be better - but what do I know?
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Old 06-29-07, 03:15 PM   #17
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I think this post just about sums up some major issues here. Plenty of expertise, plenty of foolish misjudgements and provocation of the authorities and others, plenty of boasting, and plenty of stupid infighting and name calling. Pity really. Why would someone whose activities have already raised some bad publicity and a ban, then say gleefully that he was going to now going to stalk the Segway tours on his new electric go-ped? I can't understand that any more than the people who taunt the same fellow about past competitions.

It would seem to me that a spirit of cooperation, enquiry and sharing experience would be better - but what do I know?
I have shared my experences, and how to build such a ebike.If one can not figure out how to make a motor mount or connect wires they should stick to a ready made ebike.
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Old 06-29-07, 09:01 PM   #18
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^ Huh? You're talking about a 2003 design? Three speed SRAM? A cyclone kit with a vision stoker freewheeling crank can give you 21+ speeds through the motor which is far superior to what you're talking about. Who would want to waste their time rebuilding your old, dated design?
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Old 06-30-07, 02:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by EbikeHawaii
I have shared my experences, and how to build such a ebike.If one can not figure out how to make a motor mount or connect wires they should stick to a ready made ebike.
And I appreciate that and say 'thanks'. It was interesting.
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Old 06-30-07, 02:41 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Clay Coppinger
^ Huh? You're talking about a 2003 design? Three speed SRAM? A cyclone kit with a vision stoker freewheeling crank can give you 21+ speeds through the motor which is far superior to what you're talking about. Who would want to waste their time rebuilding your old, dated design?
Since electric motors have a wide range of usable torque and can work efficiently throughout that range, and since many front / rear derailleur settings are inefficient and hard on the chain and cogs even for a person inputting modest power, maybe a lot of those gears wouldn't be so much use. The internal hub design can use a bigger chain and keeps it running in an exactly straight line the way it is supposed to be. I'd say that is a superior specification on paper at least.

Personally, although I can see why someone might be interested in working out the problems, I think running a mountain bike at 45 mph is a dangerous thing to do. None of its parts are meant for that kind of punishment. What's more, doing so is bound to cause draconian response from the authorities. 'In your face' behaviour like that is extremely unwise, I'd say. That said, I think Randy has made some very useful contributions to developing very practical solutions. I think the twin freewheel thing to an internal hub is a master stroke actually. Coupled to a lower power motor running at its spec voltage, we could see the same weight battery pack having twice as many cells in parallel, or larger cells. That would mean phenomenal range. Poor range is the biggest limiter of the ebike market at the moment.

Most ebikers don't drive up volcanoes. They want to go practical distances on reliable durable machines at modest speeds. The light motorcycle / scooter market is already very well served by dozens of designs. It is a very different market to that for ebikes.
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Old 06-30-07, 03:42 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by EvilV
Since electric motors have a wide range of usable torque and can work efficiently throughout that range, and since many front / rear derailleur settings are inefficient and hard on the chain and cogs even for a person inputting modest power, maybe a lot of those gears wouldn't be so much use. The internal hub design can use a bigger chain and keeps it running in an exactly straight line the way it is supposed to be. I'd say that is a superior specification on paper at least.

Personally, although I can see why someone might be interested in working out the problems, I think running a mountain bike at 45 mph is a dangerous thing to do. None of its parts are meant for that kind of punishment. What's more, doing so is bound to cause draconian response from the authorities. 'In your face' behaviour like that is extremely unwise, I'd say. That said, I think Randy has made some very useful contributions to developing very practical solutions. I think the twin freewheel thing to an internal hub is a master stroke actually. Coupled to a lower power motor running at its spec voltage, we could see the same weight battery pack having twice as many cells in parallel, or larger cells. That would mean phenomenal range. Poor range is the biggest limiter of the ebike market at the moment.

Most ebikers don't drive up volcanoes. They want to go practical distances on reliable durable machines at modest speeds. The light motorcycle / scooter market is already very well served by dozens of designs. It is a very different market to that for ebikes.
Shifting your pedal gears more than two times to 30 mph in seconds would be useless.Most people here would need a ebike that will climb steep hills if they wanted to go around this island.The volcano only proves this can be done efficiently without the system breaking down or depending on pedal power if your human power whimps out.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...83645398356399

The whole video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1
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Old 06-30-07, 07:45 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Doug5150
This is exactly the mentality I do not understand about e-bike enthusiasts--that you would spend so much money for a motor system, and then still have to pedal to get a useful range out of it anyway. ....Kind of like saying your car gets 80 mpg if you get out and push it the first 40 miles.
~
Most e-bikers aren't trying to avoid pedalling. They just want to go faster with the same or less effort. I'd pay money for that!
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Old 06-30-07, 08:45 PM   #23
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Since electric motors have a wide range of usable torque and can work efficiently throughout that range, and since many front / rear derailleur settings are inefficient and hard on the chain and cogs even for a person inputting modest power, maybe a lot of those gears wouldn't be so much use. The internal hub design can use a bigger chain and keeps it running in an exactly straight line the way it is supposed to be. I'd say that is a superior specification on paper at least.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what Clay is saying. I don't think you're completely understanding what he meant either by your comments? I'll help elaborate for you.... If you were to use a Vision freewheeling stoker crank, the motor would power the front crank through an independent chain and chainring. More specifically, the motor would power the outermost chainring. The remaining 3 front chainrings and derailleur and standard chain would remaind the same. The motor would have a freewheel as well as the aforementioned Vision crank having its own freewheel. This would allow one to run power without pedaling or pedaling without motor resistance. This greater gear range would allow for a smaller motor than Randy is using. This combination under a skilled rider would run with Randy' s setup all day long without producing torque that could otherwise damage standard bicycle components. I also think that it's been so long since Randy actually pedaled a bike that he believes it's really true that it's impractical to shift gears a few times within a few seconds while on the way up to 30mph. Hogwash!

Oh, and perhaps Randy can produce a document from the manufacturer of his SRAM stating that they'll stand behind or even warranty their product in his application where he's stomping on the throttle like he does in his videos? I'll bet they won't! He's using a 750W motor for God's sake! Those SRAMS were NEVER designed to take such high torque! At best, Randy's ebike is a clever one-off that's had its day in the sun. (behind 3 team Mavic riders that is...LOL)

Robbie
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Old 07-01-07, 02:50 AM   #24
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Thank you Robbie Hatfield. The explanation makes Clay's point much clearer. You are right - I don't know that much about this stuff. I'm just trying to find out.
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Old 07-01-07, 03:29 PM   #25
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Thank you Robbie Hatfield. The explanation makes Clay's point much clearer. You are right - I don't know that much about this stuff. I'm just trying to find out.
Just listen to Robbies BS and forget the results of actual testing. . LOL
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