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The7 07-20-07 02:57 PM

My first ebike -Schwinn Foldable AL1020
 
1 Attachment(s)
Recently bought a new Schwinn foldable AL 1020 from CT. This e-bike could do a range of 40 km with partial pedalling. The max speed on flat without pedalling is about 20 km/h. This bike seems to be well-built but a bit on the heavy side althought the frame is of 6061 Aluminum. It weights 60 lb with an 24V 12Ah SLA battery pack and 40 lb without battery.
There is no gear-change for pedalling. So it is difficult to pedal to assist the motor when the speed is over 20 km/h.

I have another MTB bike (not e-bike) with 7005 Aluminum frame with 21 gears. I could pedal it faster than the e-bike on flat.

What is the difference between 6061 and 7005 aluminum?

PMD283 07-20-07 03:55 PM

Hi,

I too have had the AL1020 for about 4 weeks and am enjoying the bike. I am a 60 year old retiree and have to ease into any physical workout.
I was getting up to 24 km/hr on perfectly flat with absolutely no wind. Just this morning I added an additional 6 volt 12ah battery in series and got a bit of a performance boost. I now get around 30 km/hr on flat. Before the extra battery the motor would sort of give up at a certain speed. Now it seems to want to keep pushing beyond the original rpm. I find the biggest difference in the hill climbing though. I can now climb small inclines with no assist at a decent clip.
Although I still have to test it out I am quite happy with the results. I don't notice any big increase in heat either on the hub or the controller. They seem to be about "lukewarm" after climbing a medium hill.
I am still in the testing stage but I can post a picture if you want.

godspiral 07-20-07 04:32 PM

7005 aluminum is stronger or lighter, and has longer life.

The7 07-20-07 11:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by PMD283 (Post 4896137)
Hi,

Just this morning I added an additional 6 volt 12ah battery in series and got a bit of a performance boost. I now get around 30 km/hr on flat.
I am still in the testing stage but I can post a picture if you want.

Hi,
Glad to hear your test result and would like to see your picture if available.

Recently I opened the controller and noted the 3 big capacitors are 100uF 100V. Wonder if the controller could work at 36V?
If it could work at 36V, the ebike will have a much better torque for slope and speed.
Is it wise to do such a test?

Lowell_ 07-21-07 02:33 AM

Check the part numbers on the MOSFETs. Chances are it would work fine at 36V. In fact if the MOSFETs are 55V, you could run 4 SLA's in series as long as the other components are ok for 48V.

My local Canadian Tire just got that model in recently, the the display unit seemed to be fully charged. I took it for a few wheelies down the bike aisle, and it could definitely use more torque and speed :)

The7 07-21-07 12:25 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowell_ (Post 4898653)
Check the part numbers on the MOSFETs. Chances are it would work fine at 36V. In fact if the MOSFETs are 55V, you could run 4 SLA's in series as long as the other components are ok for 48V.

My local Canadian Tire just got that model in recently, the the display unit seemed to be fully charged. I took it for a few wheelies down the bike aisle, and it could definitely use more torque and speed :)

Unfornately the circuit board is potted to the inside of the housing. The housing is used as an heat-sink for the 6 FETs. It is impossible to see the marking on the FETs unless the potting epoxy is removed.

Is there anyway to remove the epoxy without destroying the circuit board?

The7 07-21-07 12:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Data on the controller:
Ananda Drive Technologies Co Lld of Shanghai, China
Model No: 2415DLC-11Z0 / N12C
Date of Manu: 2006-11-29

It seems to be well built.

Any chance to obtain more details or circuit diagram for this controller?

Could an higher-powered controller (say 36V 20A) used for upgrading?

PMD283 07-21-07 04:55 PM

Sorry I took so long to respond. I did some further work on the bike today and I also had to figure out how to host the photos.
My personal opinion is that the controller may take the extra voltage. The controller has some sort of cast aluminum housing. It sits inside an aluminum box which is welded to an aluminum frame - almost a perfect heatsink.
The motor though may be questionable. It is quite small and I wonder if the small amount of heat on the housing is any indication of the heat on the windings. I don't know and at this point I'm too chicken to try.
Here goes with the photos. The first shows my initial temporary setup. The next shows my semi-permanent setup (I'm still not happy with it). Notice how I left room for another 6 volt battery.

http://users.vianet.ca/pdonato/bike1.JPG

http://users.vianet.ca/pdonato/Bike2.JPG

The7 07-22-07 12:20 AM

2 Attachment(s)
For 24V, the max speed at no-load is 30km/h.
The speed is measured by a digital speedometer via the magnet/speed sensor.
The magnet/sensor is installed at the rear wheel.
The digital speedometer is mounted on the right-hand side of the handle bar.

The7 07-22-07 12:23 AM

1 Attachment(s)
My e-bike on the stand for no-load test.

The7 07-22-07 12:40 AM

The hub motor is a brushless motor with an internal fixed gear.
I am confident that the motor should be able to stand 36V with no problem.
Only thing to be concerned is the controller.

From no-load test on 24V supply, the max speed is 30km/h.
What will be the max speed on flat?
I think that it should be about 24 km/h by taking 80% of that of no-load. (To be verified by to-morrow).

If the 36V supply could be used,
then the max speed would be 45 km/h at no-load and 36km/h on flat.

PMD283 07-22-07 07:05 AM

I think your numbers on the speeds are correct. I also take back what I said about the motor being the weakest link. The controller box (outer one) does heat up slightly when I climb a lot of hills and is not welded to the frame but bolted on. If we can find a way of keeping it cool perhaps with external heatsinks and assuming the heat transfer between the actual controller box and it's external housing is good then 36 volts won't be an issue.
Even as it is now it may work alright on 36Volts.

Anyway let me know what you find out.

Thanks for the info.

The7 07-22-07 09:08 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Some observerations as learnt from other typical BLDC controllers:

1) The control supply voltages are typically 12Vdc and 5Vdc which are stepped down from the battery voltage by ICs. These regulated-ICs should not be a problem when battery voltage increases from 24V to 36V.
2) There is a max current limiting circuit. I think that it is 15A for our controller because Schwinn uses 24V 15A controller for a smaller size (physically) BLDC motor on IZIP ebike.
3) For the same power output, the battery current should be lower if the the battery voltage is higher. So the temp of controller would be lower at the same speed/power. But it would be almost the same at its max load since the battery current is limited at the same value. So the heating of the controller should not be a problem.
4) The 100V 100uF capacitors should not be a problem when working at 36V.
5) Unable to know the voltage rating of the FETs !!????. If they are 55V or higher as Lowell said, then they should be no problem for 36V.
6) The main risk is to replace all these FETs (or an upgraded controller) if they do fail at 36V battery. ???? !!!!.

Question: To risk or not?

EvilV 07-22-07 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The7 (Post 4904118)
Question: To risk or not?

Where would we be had we not taken risks?

Hiding in the trees and eating nuts and leaves probably.

The7 07-23-07 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The7 (Post 4903258)
The hub motor is a brushless motor with an internal fixed gear.
I am confident that the motor should be able to stand 36V with no problem.
Only thing to be concerned is the controller.

From no-load test on 24V supply, the max speed is 30km/h.
What will be the max speed on flat?
I think that it should be about 24 km/h by taking 80% of that of no-load. (To be verified by to-morrow).

If the 36V supply could be used,
then the max speed would be 45 km/h at no-load and 36km/h on flat.

I road tested my ebike today on flat by riding both direction on the same road with full throttle and non-pedalling.
The max speed towards North was 27 km/h and towards South was 25 km/h.
Thus the average on flat is approximatly 26 km/h which is about 85% of the no-load speed.
So my prediction is quite close.

In my opinion, 25 km/h is a bit too low. I would like if it could be 30-35 km/h on flat and it is difficult assist to pedal if the speed is above 20 km/h because it has a single-speed pedalling.
That is why I try to find an way improve it.
36 V battery supply would be the suitable soluttion if the stock controller could stand.

andmalc 07-23-07 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilV (Post 4905050)
Where would we be had we not taken risks?

Hiding in the trees and eating nuts and leaves probably.

What's the matter with eating nuts and leaves, other when the twigs stick in your teeth?

My tree house is very comfey except there's nowhere to plug in the battery charger.

meb 07-24-07 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The7 (Post 4895829)
Recently bought a new Schwinn foldable AL 1020 from CT. This e-bike could do a range of 40 km with partial pedalling. The max speed on flat without pedalling is about 20 km/h. This bike seems to be well-built but a bit on the heavy side althought the frame is of 6061 Aluminum. It weights 60 lb with an 24V 12Ah SLA battery pack and 40 lb without battery.
There is no gear-change for pedalling. So it is difficult to pedal to assist the motor when the speed is over 20 km/h.

I have another MTB bike (not e-bike) with 7005 Aluminum frame with 21 gears. I could pedal it faster than the e-bike on flat.

What is the difference between 6061 and 7005 aluminum?

7005 is the strongest aluminum-it is a high silicon alloy. It is unweldable, but brazable. Usually lug assembly of the frame is used in view of the non-weldability, but there has been an increase in brazing on mountain bikes with this material lately.
6061 is the strongest weldable aluminun alloy.

If your folder were made of 7005, it would be between 1 and 2 lbs lighter than 6061 construction. Most of the added weight is due you batteries and motor.

tictac713 07-24-07 04:27 AM

hey i just saw your video ziping at home depot parking lot. LOL looks so much fun. i live in Vancouver, do you think i can take a look at your bike? you can do the driving and i'll watch. =) im thinking of getting one for short trips around vancity or driving around car show. hehee.

The7 07-24-07 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meb (Post 4916671)
7005 is the strongest aluminum-it is a high silicon alloy. It is unweldable, but brazable. Usually lug assembly of the frame is used in view of the non-weldability, but there has been an increase in brazing on mountain bikes with this material lately.
6061 is the strongest weldable aluminun alloy.

If your folder were made of 7005, it would be between 1 and 2 lbs lighter than 6061 construction. Most of the added weight is due you batteries and motor.

Thanks for the info about 7005 and 6061 aluminum.
I could see a lot of welding in the 6061 frame.

The battery pack weights 20 lbs.
The motor could weight about 6-7 lb.
The bike weights 60 lbs with battery and motor.
The weight of the bike would be about 33 lbs if the battery and motor were removed.

The7 07-25-07 08:13 PM

The stock controller was tested at 36 V battery voltage:

No-load test results on AL1020

A)Using 24 V 12 Ah SLA Battery

1) Quiescent Current = 0.06A

2) Max Throttle
Max No-load Speed = 30.7 km/h
Current = 1.22 A
Then input power = 24X1.22 = 29.3 W

B) Using 36 V supply ( 24V 12Ah + 12V 14Ah)
3) Quiescent Current = 0.07 A

4) Max Throttle
Max No-load Speed = 45.7 km/h
Current = 1.60A
Then input power = 36X1.60= 57.6 W

5) Partial Throttle at Speed = 30.7 km/h
Current = 0.95A
Then input power = 36X0.95= 34.2 W

Comments:
1) The 24V stock controller was used for both 24V and 36V test.
2) Quiesent current is only increased slightly from 0.06 to 0.07A.
3) Max no-load speed is approximately proportional to the battery voltage.
4) For the same speed, current for 36V battery is lower. But the input power in higher. This means the heating of the FET would not be a problem.
5) It seems that the stock controller could work at 36V. The 3 big capacitors are rated at 100V 100uF while the voltage ratings of the FETs are unknown because they are potted inside the casing.

Road test with 36 V will be coming soon.

PMD283 07-25-07 09:04 PM

Excellent tests!!
If you do a road test do some uphill @WOT and see if there is any significent heating of the controller or the hub. I am looking forward to your results.

Lowell_ 07-25-07 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tictac713 (Post 4916795)
hey i just saw your video ziping at home depot parking lot. LOL looks so much fun. i live in Vancouver, do you think i can take a look at your bike? you can do the driving and i'll watch. =) im thinking of getting one for short trips around vancity or driving around car show. hehee.

PM me your #, and we can meet at the www.ebikes.ca store at 30th and Main st. After trying out a few small tire bikes, and doing some wheelies on the folder in the aisles of Canadian Tire :) I've just changed over to a 20" rear wheel.

The7 07-25-07 10:05 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by The7 (Post 4932130)
The stock controller was tested at 36 V battery voltage:

No-load test results on AL1020

A)Using 24 V 12 Ah SLA Battery

1) Quiescent Current = 0.06A

2) Max Throttle
Max No-load Speed = 30.7 km/h
Current = 1.22 A
Then input power = 24X1.22 = 29.3 W

B) Using 36 V supply ( 24V 12Ah + 12V 14Ah)
3) Quiescent Current = 0.07 A

4) Max Throttle
Max No-load Speed = 45.7 km/h
Current = 1.60A
Then input power = 36X1.60= 57.6 W

5) Partial Throttle at Speed = 30.7 km/h
Current = 0.95A
Then input power = 36X0.95= 34.2 W

Comments:
1) The 24V stock controller was used for both 24V and 36V test.
2) Quiesent current is only increased slightly from 0.06 to 0.07A.
3) Max no-load speed is approximately proportional to the battery voltage.
4) For the same speed, current for 36V battery is lower. But the input power in higher. This means the heating of the FET would not be a problem.
5) It seems that the stock controller could work at 36V. The 3 big capacitors are rated at 100V 100uF while the voltage ratings of the FETs are unknown because they are potted inside the casing.

Road test with 36 V will be coming soon.

The photos of the test are:

The7 07-25-07 10:10 PM

3 Attachment(s)
The 36 V battery = 24V 12Ah Stock Battery + 12V 14Ah Jump Start Battery

The7 07-26-07 01:52 PM

Road test this morning ( Thursday 2007/07/26)

Place: Vancouver BC
Temp = 19 deg C
Weather = Excellent

A) 24 V battery
1)Max speed at flat = 25 km/h
Current = 6A to 9A
2) Slight Slope speed = 19 km/h
Current = 13 to 14 A
3) Max current is limitd by controller to 14.8A
Then max input power = 24X14.8= 355 W

B) 36 V battery
1) Max speed at flat = 35 km/h
2) Slight Slope speed = 25 km/h
3 Max current is also limited by controller to 14.8A
Then max input power is limited to 36X 14.8 = 532 W
5) The testing time = 75 min
6) Average Speed about 19.8 km/h
7) Distance travelled = 25km
The 36 battery are all "EMPTY" with 11.93 V, 11.99V and 12.0V at the end of the road test.
9) Pedalling was only used to assist starting and could not be used at all if the speed was over 20 km/h.
10) Both controller and hub motor were only luke-warm.



Comments:
1) The ride using 36V was much enjoyable.
2) There was no heat problem for controller and motor.
3) Higher speed and torque.
4) If the stock controller does fail, wll ungrade it to 36V 20A one.
5) Will take the risk to use the 36 V version from now on


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