Jaleel Johanson

Go to www.ecospeed.com and you'll be really really close to what I'm using.

Jaleel Johanson

Not everybody has the resources to build a geared system like you have. Hubmotors, while not the most efficient way to power an ebike, do successfully open the hobby of ebiking up to a much wider audience. This is a GOOD thing! It allows more people to experience the benefits of power assist. In time, these people will seek better, more efficient ways to do what they're currently doing. Who doesn't want to get more from their ride?

Preaching on a messageboard that everyone using a hubmotor is an idiot is counterproductive and just plain stupid. Grow up already. When people can buy a decent geared ebike at a decent price, I'm sure they will. I'm also sure it won't be you that makes it happen as you come across as someone who talks about the 'big game' that everyone else forgot about years ago.

EbikeHawaii

Since the days when I was making 2 pound BLDC Motor/planetary Gear box drives inside a snug 2" diameter submersable housings used as solar powered boats outboars motors inside the 10" 15 hp gas propeller hub.The small 1.5 Kw motor with gears obviously didn't get even warm but it did loose some efficiency in the process and learnd then both for cost,range or power spectrum and efficiency it is better to go with the smallest size with the most power that is the most efficient with the least moving parts starting from high torque at a at low efficient rpm to get the least possible reduction ratio using a "single Chain reduction "to achieve the torque you need.It all can be done with auto $8. pre wound auto stators and off the shelf parts cheap! cheaper in volume.I But anyway LOL@lowell the bittom line is you get what you can and they will last untill they quit and still make smiles. Thats where its at! tin can motors make $ and I wonder why there is not a GREAT! product yet.? I think I have had the answer a long time. LOL=@Lowell

Lowell_

Hahahah, the big game was Randy's 3 hours and 3 minutes of fame back in 2003. It's pretty sad that he has to mention it repeatedly, and bump his own threads to the top. Stooping to name calling furthur shows lack of points to argue. Is that the best you can do Randy?

Not everyone's ebike needs are the same, and as Robert C. pointed out, Randy's volcano racer is not really that interesting in the real world, although it should get a technical merit badge. A great product will sell itself, and doesn't need a raving lunatic preaching on message boards to promote it. There is no better advertising than a satisfied customer telling all his friends, but unfortunately Randy's kit can't be bought so it's a moot point.

EbikeHawaii

Isn't it a point to make known that there better ways to power a electric bike more efficiently and lighter, less moving parts with less costs?

Yes crappy Hub motors have there place, but not in my garage.The question is: What has LoL=Lowell done for advancing off the shelf technology to make a lighter,longer range ebike that will make a difference in the future ebike products?

Things I brought to these boards before the ideas became popular.10 reasons for lol=Lowell to come unglued.
1. Brushless motors before curries kits came out people thought brushless BLDC motors were week and troublesome I proved that they could be made smaller and stronger and more efficient than burshed motors.
2. I introduced the ONLY 3 speed hub that was engioneered and built to handel 1600 watts of power for 1000s of abusive miles and hold up for a great price.Before I brought this up no one else even talked about using mulri gearing for the motor and pedals eliminating the derailers.
3.I brought up the use Whattmeters that I have used since 1990 made by astro flight.Since many started using them Drain Brain and a frew others were inspired to make such meters for ebikes.
4.Telling people about alternator stators that great ebike motors can be made froom cheaply.
5.Devising freewheel systems on Shimano freehubs for single redudtion motors to freewheel on the hub independently from the pedal drive and using either a 3 speed hub or a single speed hub in comon with or without derailer coggs and a derailer at either end.
5.Dual sided drives on the wheel using BMX hubs before Staton Inc built there own.
6.One of the first to use Evercels and 7. lithiums at 72 volts.
7.Made the longest up hill videos on a ebike.
8.Set the record for the the only electric vehicle to ever climb over 10,000 feet in a vetrical ascent from the beach.To date no one has atempted this.
9.Introduced quality efficient 219 chain and Quiet Kevlar and composite sprockets and adapters to ebikers.
10a.Found the right companies that make the best controllers available for all ebikes with Mil spec parts at a great cost.NOT in China.
10b.Made the only 5 lb motor NOT on the market that will fit between the crank pedals to mid drive a 26" wheel to the hub of a ebike with great efficiency in a SINGLE stage chain reduction without the use of a jack shaft or motor reduction gears.
10c. Designd the only 7 lb hub motor to not spin in the wheel, but to be to slide onto any Shimano freehub to power either a single speed or 3 speed intrenal geard hub.
10d.What otther ebike has a mid drive motor on the swingarm in front of the tire on a full suspension ebike?

If you want to change gearing or battery voltage you have options to kill your self if you like.
Put this 6 lb motor on a ebike using a 200amp 48 volts at 160 amps contionus Sevcon controller for 5.7 Kw.the amprage for 5 minutes would be 120 amps at using 10ah Kokam battery cells on a 20 lb roadbike and you will get over 60 mph at 6500 motor rpms.You can buy 10 ah lithium RC packs at your favorite RC store that would weigh a total of 10 lbs. good for 30C discharge rates.. Change the controller and 200 peak amps Why not? Its too dam fast on a bicycle.It would only weigh 35 lbs. total to go 5 miles in 5 minutes.The lithium rockets may be bursting in air at the 5 mile mark.Naaa that's only a 12 C discharge. 200 amps would be 20 C peaks in which RC airplane nuts use every day with there 30 C rated packs..
The winding on this motor is from a stock wound $8. auto alternator stator that 1000s can be taken away for free at many junk yards.This same set up could be used as a legal ebike going 20 mph for 30 miles WITHOUT needing to pedal if you didn't feel like it.Speed limiters and power limiters are desined into the programable controller.

Robert C

It would be very helpful if you would include a step-by-step for converting alternators into motors (photos would even be better). Where do you get the chain drive gears that fit on the alternator shaft?

I have been looking at these motor kits. It would be for use on my bikeE. all I really need is the motor, controller, tensioner. Because the bikeE already has a single chainring, the rest of the kit would be left unused.
https://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-E...QQcmdZViewItem

EbikeHawaii

The right size motor and rotors and shafts need to be custom made.Turning down a 17 mm alternator shaft to 5/8" can be done by spinning the shaft on a lathe using a cutting tool or a grinder.I have no use for anything except 8mm timing chain and 8mm sprockets.They are redily available under 10 bucks for either the motor or wheel sprockets.Since this chain is ment for uses up to 20 hp at 12000 rpm adjustments are seldom and there is not any reason for a chain tensioner if you use a quality freehub or freewheel attached to the freehub.The main reason no one else uses this system are two parts.A good motor that will fit between the pedals and a freewheel modification to fit the freehub.
Nothing a manufactrue or machine shop can't do easily.
If there was a market for complete ebikes for the American market Honda would already be making them.

Jaleel Johanson

My point exactly! Only a small percentage of the population could even take on a project like this! That's why it stays in the garages of a few individuals.

Hubmotors are popular because they can be installed by virtually anybody. VHS vcr's were also technically inferior to BETA units, but they won out too because they were easier to manufacture and as a result, could be sold at a reasonable price.

Go to www.ebikes.ca and look at what a motivated individual like Justin Lemire has done to promote hubmotors. Say all you want about him Hawaii boy, but he's a success story in a variety of ways, and that's everything you've proven you're not over the years. In order for you to really impress anyone, you'll need to start up a successful operation like Justin has for your geared motor approach. The geared motor approach is technically superior, so this should give you an edge over Justin. Until you do something like this, your endless self promotion won't even raise your credibility above the noise floor.

EbikeHawaii

I have already proven to myself that gearred motors suck in efficiency oposed to single chain drives to the hub.For one they make too much noise and have too many parts to fail and add weight and cost that can be applied to a stronger motor in a small size.There is actually no reason for a geared internal hub if you have right chain reduction and a motor powerful enough to do the job.A chain on the inside for the motor and a derailer and freewheel cassette outside for pedaling.This set up is good for 30 mph speed with a single motor ratio that will climb any hills.You can increase the speed by voltage or put a 3 speed internal hub on it to increase the speed to what ever you want using a lower motor RPM.
Hub motors are great for people who don't expect too much performance out of there ebikes.Sure you can mod them at a worse efficiency by overvolting them and using them past there rated wattage..
Condeming a system that you can not make or understsnd makes hub motors ideal for you. and every one else.
Your right the noise floor is hub motors so be content with hoping for better. Some people move on when they can't find what they need and devlope it themselves with off the shelf parts or make them themselves.Some people like to look into alternitives for more efficient systems.As I can see you are not one of them.
All it takes is 1 ebike manufacture to make a change.
Since the low qialty hub motors are making chinees farmers rich overnight keep on giving them more than there products are worth ?
Because it is easy to do it is your only option. You might as well forget and dismiss anything better.
Yes I am wasting my time and yours.

EbikeHawaii

There is not a part in your kit that I can see worth using along with the millions of other ebike parts that are made today including all hub motors.Its a shame so many are promoting junk kits and ebikes.They are actually promoting a bad name for any ebike company.Because they all are not made to last vary long at all or go 20 miles every day without having to pedal..

geebee

These style of kits usually run a freewheeling crank assembly so you would most likely require the cranks and the bottom bracket as it is slightly over width (again normally with this style of drive). The freewheel allows the motor to run the chain without having your pedals spinning at the same speed, or if you want to take a breather from pedalling.

EbikeHawaii seems very reluctant to give the required data photo's to build one, prehaps as others might actually test the performance/efficiency? or he still has hopes after all these years of selling the idea.

If one could buy an off the shelf alternator for $8 as described in a previous post and get better efficiency than anything available elsewhere, people would be all over it like a rash?

Robert C

Wes, but I would need to know just what i need to do to the alternator after I buy it. So far, all I heard is "machine the shaft" I do have a lathe and this statement is entirely useless He gave a number to cut it down to, but what part of the shaft, and why? Then, does it need to be rewired? I have never tried to just send power to an alternator before, will it just spin up like a motor?

This project is still about a year away; but, I am interested.

geebee

Previous posts on other forums over the years he has stated that you needed to rewire the stator, and mod the housing, but now apparently that is not required?

EbikeHawaii

mixing up your own storys keeps going on and on ... so be it buy a hub motor lol

Lowell_

For sure he's not selling the idea, as the info has been out there for years and nobody has bothered to market it. If there was any significant demand, the Chinese would be on it like white on rice, and companies like Crystalyte would be filling containers with 5lb pancake motors.

Until someone who is actually respected in the ebike community (hello Knoxie!) gives some unbiased test results, there's not much to go by except claims from a raving lunatic with a few screws loose.

Lowell_

I was wondering when the VHS vs Beta comparison would come up. My cousin was a die hard Beta guy from the get go and would go on about the technical superiority of Beta over VHS. A shining example of how simplicity and availabilty rules.

Justin @ Ebikes.ca is an engineer, but he's also a business man. Everyone including him knows that gears are better on paper, but when it comes to running a successful business there are other factors that sell apart from technical superiority. For example Sony's PS3 kicks ass on Nintendo's Wii, just not in the sales department, and Nintendo did a great job on building what the market wanted, not what they thought people should buy.

Randy would actually have credibility if he could express himself as a sane and rational person, able to conduct a civil conversation with a group of people.

Garandman

This is all quite interesting. We're hosting a CAD user group meeting with a "futertech" theme, focused on alternative energy and transportation. So we're building an ebike as one example of what could be done today to use less gas.

We speced out a bike with a two speed rear hub motor and 48 V SLA batteries. They'll be mounted to
a Giant MTB that we're having a community biking organization in Maine put it all together.

This is what we got. It was kind of hard to spec because we don't really know how we'll use it.

Crystalyte 408/4011 Brushless hub motor
Rear 26" Double Wall Rim with Shimano 7 compatible Freewheel
20Amp, 36V-72V Dual Speed Hub Motor Controller
Thumb Throttle
E-Brakes (they disconnect the motor when you apply the brakes
4 12V, 10AH SLA [Sealed Lead Acid] batteries
Battery meter / power meter
Cruise Control

We went conservative on the battery pack as it appears lithium Ion technology will provide big benefits in future. I've asked them to put a disk brake on the front, and mount very rugged tires.

We bought the kit from the www.poweridestore.com/ and it was just over $800 including shipping to MA. They are testing all the components before shipping and we'll start assembly next week.

BroadwayJoe

Awesome to hear about some scientific testing being done in the eBike community! Being so close to A123 Systems it shouldn't be long before you get some lithium chemistry happening and what a joy that will be.

Start a new thread - please keep us updated about your project and tests.

Good choices so far and I like the poweride folks too.

good luck

Jaleel Johanson

Is this your idea of being helpful Hawaii boy? No wonder your system has never left your garage.

Lowell_

This group doesn't need leading, it just needs a free exchange of information.

Why are you so reluctant to post exact build details of your motor? Afraid of the truth? Did Ken Trough leave a bad taste in your mouth?

geebee

Here is a photo of the insides of the "prodution version" called Planet Ryder. The first public demo was a disaster the motor went up in smoke and I have never actually seen one for sale.
As you can see the stator isn't exactly off the shelf. I could have been wrong about the windings but can't really be bothered trying to go back far enough to confirm as the EbikeHawaii aka Randy has been banging on about this design for a looooong time.



Published spec.

Motor

Ke = 17 V/kRPM

Kt = 0.17 Nm/A

Resistance 0.25 Ohms

Inductance (approx.) 200 uH

12 Poles


Controller

Nominal input voltage 16-48V (max. 55V)

Continuous output current 20A

Peak output current 35A

Output power (max.) 1 kW



Measured no-load of motor

0.8 A @ 38V

Data linked from Endless-shere, one of the numerous forums Randy's managed to get banned from.

The7

Some estimated calculation for the "Planet Rider" motor:

Max rpm at 48V = 1000 48/17 = 2820 rpm
Motor Torque at 20A = 0.17 X20 = 3.4 NM

Frequency of 3-phase supply at 2800rpm = 2820/60 X12/2 = 282 Hz
26" wheel rotates 322 rpm at 40 km/h
Hence the reduction gear ratio = 2820 /322 = 8.75 : 1
Wheel Torque at 20A = 3.4 X8.75 = 29.8 NM

Comments:
1) This motor seems to be of good design and have high torque.
2) With a gear ratio of 8-10 for 26", it will be a very good motor for 26" wheel.
3) Theorectically a direct-drive motor (at 322 rpm) will be about 8 times the size.
4) The attached geared hub motor has similar winding/poles arrangement with a gear ratio of 4.

Garandman

We looked into the available options for most of the last year. I signed on for the Yahoo newsgroup power-assist, found the forums at Endless-Sphere

As we looked into it, there are all kinds of good motors available and a number of ways to hook them up, from front and rear hub (brushed and brushless, geared and direct drive) motors to the Stoke Monkey to a number of other unique approaches. They all work well for particular uses. Industry use of electic motors is immense and that technology is highly developed.

So choice of motor or drive system is not the rub. The rub is batteries.

Sealed Lead Acid batteries are reliable, reasonably priced, widely available, and heavy. Lead is, well, heavy as lead: a mid-sized automotive battery weighs around 45 lbs! The NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride) batteries are lighter but much more costly and have other problems. Lithium Ion seems to have a lot of potential because of their high energy density, no memory effect, and no real internal discharge. Lithium Polymer batteries are also getting closer to market. But they aren't practical now. And wait till all those smug "environmentalists" who bought a Prius have to replace their batteries and dispose of the old ones and that won't seem like such a great choice.

Going from SLA to NiMH batteries would have doubled the cost of the kit. But this will change. If batteries become more practical, more plug-in options become available (many Northern cities have plug-ins on parking meters for block heaters in cold weather, so it's possible), and perhaps gasoline continues to increase in cost, ebikes may well replace small scooters and mopeds as the most popular short haul and urban personal transportation. Right now, it's tough to beat a 50cc gas engine in the marketplace even though they're stinky and noisy.

The7

No-load 3360 rpm at 60V => No-load 2688 rpm at 48V (5% slower than Planet Ryder)

A FORD stator is used with self-made magnet rotor.

At 72V
No-load rpm = 56X72= 4032 rpm.

"loaded up a bit" rpm = 3400 rpm (at 84% of no-load rpm)
14 poles at 3400 rpm => 397 Hz
Drive wheel rpm = 3400/7 = 485 rpm
125 ft lb => 169 Nm ( very high torgue at drive wheel)
Output Power at drive-wheel = 2X3.14X (485/60) X 169 = 8580 W
Input power = 72X50 = 3600 W

There must be something wrong in the data/calculation because the Output power is 238% of Input power.
Please help!??

Seems that this motor is still in R and D stage. Any further developement/results?
I have great interest to see this motor. Any photos ?

The7

However unlike industrial use, "weight" is one of the most important factor in ebikes.
Weight/size of motor is also an important factor next to the weight/capacity of battery.