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  1. #1
    Techie Oshawaebiker's Avatar
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    Why The Trashing of E-Bikes

    When I got involved with E-Bikes, I thought the one community we would get the most support from would be the cycling community. Instead members of this community ( not all ) have been our biggest opponents.
    We have many of the same ideals and agendas. For some it is e-bikes in general, others just scooter style.
    Are they perfect, no. But they do fill a niche. Imagine to get someone out into the fresh air and away from their wasteful and polluting cars, even if it is not full time. Some who have not been on a bicycle for years, others who's physical ability limits or totally prevents the use of a convention bicycle. The argument well they can get on a bicycle style e-bike and just not pedal does not wash. Anyone who has had to deal with a major disability will know what I mean. And I think this negative attitude is short sited and condescending to both our agendas. It hurts all of us ( look they fight amongst each other how can we give either credibility ). To call for a ban on one style or another can have more far reaching effects than expected and lock out segments of the society that will have no other resort then to return to their cars or some stay home until absolutely needed to go out. Not all communities have transit systems available to them or they are very limited.
    We can argue the technical merits of what they are and what they are not till the cows come home and nothing will be achieved but raising everyone's blood pressure. They are what they are and in law both styles of e-bike are classed as bicycles. Lets show some level of decorum and do what we are suppose to be doing here to support and help each other.


    Note: If this thread turns into another e-bike bashing I will ask the moderator to shut it down.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oshawaebiker View Post
    Note: If this thread turns into another e-bike bashing I will ask the moderator to shut it down.
    Instead of starting a new topic and ending your post with this whiny threat, why don't you just answer the criticisms and critique of e-scooters in general in this thread:

    Electric bike legislation

    But, to answer your original question, may I direct you to a few posts from anther thread:

    How would you Improve on Veloteq E-Bikes?

    Post #20 - "Veloteq bikes would get more interest from me if they were more on the "lightweight and designed for people who want to pedal" side of things."

    Post #21 - "I'd make them more like bicycles. I saw someone peddling one the other day and I laughed outloud."

    Post #23 - "I actually talked to an owner of one of these 'bikes' recently. I've had my share of dislikes for the gendre, but I thought I'd talk one-on-one to an owner to see what their thought process is.

    This guy bought the bike last summer for about $1200 (about a years worth of transit). He was not a bike rider but someone who was attracted to the fact that it was a cheap scooter. He said he initially liked the fact that he could plug it in instead of buying gas. He was unhappy with the claims the seller made about the range. He said that without pedalling, and as we know pedalling is just about impossible with these 'bikes', he got about 10 kms before the battery slowed him down to the point he couldn't get up rises in the road. Rises, not hills.

    He also complained about the number of re-charges his SLA battery took before he had to pay for a new one (he said it was another $500). He says there are a number of cheap gas powered scooters coming out of China these days and he's going to buy one and dump his electric scooter on craigslist.

    Oh, and by the way, he compalined about how the bike community accepted him. He said people laughed, they told him to get off bike paths and just treated him with distain."

    Post #24 - "thats about what i paid for mine, and i got the same laughing and people yelling out there windows passing by.
    i also found it to small and hard on the back.

    gota love a simple bicycle with a hubmotor way better ride"

    So there you go. Does that answer your question? Perhaps now would be a good time to ask the moderator to shut this down.

  3. #3
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    These Veloteq "ebikes" should be discussed in forums dedicated to scooters and electric scooters. These things are too big and heavy to belong on trails and sidewalks. The entire experience of riding these things are much closer to scooters than bicycles. You can't lift it, you can't pedal to get anywhere significant, hardly any bike accessories can be used on these things, you can't lock it to a bike rack, you can't put it on a bus bike rack, you can't change a flat, you can't ride it on the sidewalk, trails, grass, etc..

    You're welcome to buy one of these things, but just keep them on the road. If you can't pedal, then you should just get an electric scooter without pedals. I don't see what the point is in having pedals for those folks.

  4. #4
    Techie Oshawaebiker's Avatar
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    It seems you are missing the point of this thread. It is not about whether e-bikes are good or bad but about respect and courtesy.
    It does not matter what board we are on. The anti e-bike crowd seem to get there and the cycle starts all over again. I am not exaggerating.
    Adamthi you are either anti e-bike totally or just anti scooter style. First if you are talking scooter style, they are road bikes not trail bikes and I would not even attempt to use it off road.
    2/ I do not know about where you live, but in Ontario it is illegal to ride any bike , except childrens bikes, on the side walk.
    3/ I can pedal if I have to but that is not the point of this design.and don't give me that then it is not a bicycle crap. It has gotten very old and tired.
    4/ As for accessories what else do you require. Scooter style are already fully equipped. As far as accessorizing I have saddle bags, cycle computer, tool kit.
    5/ Yes you can lock it too a bike rack.
    6/ As far as bus racks are concerned not an issue, ours don't have them.
    7/ Yes you can change a flat in the field. Did so 2 weeks ago rear hub motor took 22 minutes to completion.
    8/ In Ontario e-bikes are the only electric vehicle that are legal on the road.

    Lets stop the bickering and try to get along. Also try to be more informed about what you are saying rather than just reiterating others rhetoric and personal bias's.
    Last edited by Oshawaebiker; 06-12-08 at 08:08 AM.
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  5. #5
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    I think some people are afraid of change. I only found out about e-bikes this spring while looking into alternate forms of transportation. I bought a Veloteq e-bike this spring and am very happy with it so far. I use it almost every day. I have about 600km on it so far. I am also and avid cyclist and inline skater. I also get negativity for inline skaters from some cyclists. I drive a car, I ride bicycles, I inline skate and I e-bike. I used to ride motorcycles and I have even ridden horses on the road in the past. Why can't we enjoy all modes of transportation? Each has it's pros and cons. If traffic laws are followed and common sense is used, all modes of transpportation, including e-bikes are safe. People need to accept that the vehicles we see on the roads over the next few years are likely going to change quite a bit. E-bikes are just the beginning as we move away from gas powered vehicles. E-bikes are not for everyone. Everyone has different needs. Hopefull we will see more new vehicles that do not use gasoline in the near future. As it is now, I ride my e-bike to work almost every day and my wife takes public transit to work. Our car sits in the driveway most days looking very neglected. We have cut our gasoline use in half.

    I think it is unlikely that legistation for e-bikes will change much in Ontario after the trial period as what we have right now is very similar to other provinces and e-bike legistation in the US but Ontario tends to be a very conservative province. I think we are the last province to allow e-bikes on the public roads.

    I will enjoy my e-bike while I can. If they do get "legistated out of existense", I will find other ways to be more "green". I doubt this post will change peoples opinions. We don't all need to love e-bikes, just accept other peoples choices for transportation and give them respect when we see them on the roads. I just wanted to add a postive post from a happy Veloteq e-bike rider.

  6. #6
    Son of Fred Bander's Avatar
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    ebike, escooter, electric motorcycle...who cares? If it gets another car off the road, I am all for it no matter what they call it. I commute by ebike or on a regular bicycle depending how I'm feeling and what I want to do that day. The last time I drove my car was sometime last week, I think. I like to keep my ebike on roads because I can go faster there in a safe manner...I'd assume it's the same for people using scooter-style vehicles.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamtki View Post
    If you can't pedal, then you should just get an electric scooter without pedals. I don't see what the point is in having pedals for those folks.
    In many states (like NJ) Electric Scooters are illegal no matter what. If it has pedals its technically a bike in the eyes of the law (even if its a scooter with pedals) so Folks who want an electric scooter have to get one with pedals to scoot around the law

    (please lock this thread because that was a terrible pun )

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oshawaebiker View Post
    It seems you are missing the point of this thread. It is not about whether e-bikes are good or bad but about respect and courtesy.
    It does not matter what board we are on. The anti e-bike crowd seem to get there and the cycle starts all over again. I am not exaggerating.
    Adamthi you are either anti e-bike totally or just anti scooter style. First if you are talking scooter style, they are road bikes not trail bikes and I would not even attempt to use it off road.
    2/ I do not know about where you live, but in Ontario it is illegal to ride any bike , except childrens bikes, on the side walk.
    3/ I can pedal if I have to but that is not the point of this design.and don't give me that then it is not a bicycle crap. It has gotten very old and tired.
    4/ As for accessories what else do you require. Scooter style are already fully equipped. As far as accessorizing I have saddle bags, cycle computer, tool kit.
    5/ Yes you can lock it too a bike rack.
    6/ As far as bus racks are concerned not an issue, ours don't have them.
    7/ Yes you can change a flat in the field. Did so 2 weeks ago rear hub motor took 22 minutes to completion.
    8/ In Ontario e-bikes are the only electric vehicle that are legal on the road.

    Lets stop the bickering and try to get along. Also try to be more informed about what you are saying rather than just reiterating others rhetoric and personal bias's.

    If you can keep it on the roads and off the trails and sidewalks, then I'm happy. You can call it an electric bike if you want. "bike" is used loosely by people and can mean anything between a motorcycle to a tricycle.

    The only part I don't get is why e-bikes like these are posted in this forum. Why not just start threads about electric scooters as well? To most people, these are much closer to scooters than they are to the traditional bicycles.

  9. #9
    Shut Up and Ride MyPC8MyBrain's Avatar
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    I agree that there seems to be some anti electric bike sentiment in the cycling community. I think it's because it's so easy to pump off a spandex laden roadie while bombing past on a electric clunker with 2.5" balloon tires wearing jeans and a work shirt. They paid a bazillion dollars for that bike.. how dare you pass them

    I ride an electric bike for commuting, mountain bike on the trails, and pump down a ton a miles on the road bike. Every bike has their purpose.

    The electric gets commuting duty because I got tired of showering and changing several times every day. It goes faster, doesn't pollute, gets me there for $.10 a day, and can be ridden in my dockers and work shirt. It's a recycled MTB from my stable so it goes anywhere an un powered bike can go and you can't really tell it's electric.

    There is also sentiment that if you ride an electric you will suddenly become obese, develop type 2 diabetes and become a couch potato from lack of exercise. I'm riding 435 miles with 23,500 ft of climbing next week. I think that should dispell that mistruth.

    Can't we all just ride our bikes and get along ?
    Sheesh...

  10. #10
    Techie Oshawaebiker's Avatar
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    I think it is just the visual of scooter style that scares some. The look is only plastic. the rest is the same parts as a bicycle style. Same type hub motor. same electronics, same steering. Would there still be this bias for a Bent with fairings or a velomobile. Both these can also be made E-Bikes.
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    Hmmm.. I'm all for anyone riding anything other than a car these days, including public transport.

    How odd to find this infighting on this forum.

    I'd prefer to switch the focus to Bike shops. They seem to HATE electric bikes and won't work on mine. They have great fear of the electrical parts and the motor. Odd. Anyone know why this is?

    It just encourages me to work on my bike myself, and I'm thankful for the internet that teaches me daily How2 do this.

  12. #12
    Techie Oshawaebiker's Avatar
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    This is an old battle that is still going on.
    The problem with Bike Shops is the same bias that is shown here. They are I believe generally afraid that we are some sort of disease that will infect their pure activity rather than as a subset of cycling.
    Yes you do have to learn to wrench these bikes yourself. or form a group and help out each other. We have members of our association that are not mechanically inclined and depend on the rest of us for support.
    Trust your bike and enjoy the ride.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oshawaebiker View Post
    I think it is just the visual of scooter style that scares some.
    I think "scared" is not quite what I'm feeling when I see you guys on your e-scoots.

    http://snaposhawa.com/display/20494/255/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bander View Post
    ebike, escooter, electric motorcycle...who cares? If it gets another car off the road, I am all for it no matter what they call it.
    If you're so concerned about the environment, and going green, why would you defend the addition of another 100lbs of junk to a perfectly adequate bike, for no other reason than to look cool as a "biker" and not a bicyclist?

    As I stated in another thread: Electric bike legislation

    "...why not choose a 50 to 75lb vehicle over a 175lb one that does nothing better than the lighter one, except deplete more natural resources?

    Apart from the added extra materials and energy wasted in the manufacture of the scooter-style e-bike, consider how many more bicycle-style e-bikes will fit in a container being shipped from China, and therefore how much more diesel fuel is wasted in shipping the scoots, along with the resulting pollution.

    The BionX units are manufactured in Quebec, and weigh less than 20lbs. Want to compare carbon footprints from factory door to your door?

    Sorry, but you just can't argue logically for the existence of these things. Their only justification is for people who want to look like they're riding a motor scooter and not a bicycle."

    There is no method of human transportation ever invented that is more efficient than the bicycle. The addition of an electric hub motor such as the BionX increases the range and utility of the humble bicycle to a greater order of magnitude, especially for those of limited physical capacity. Why **** it up with by adding useless junk to make it look like a motorized scoooter when it's obviously not?

    You e-scoot riders remind me of a bunch of Harley-wannabees.

    I'd like to hear your rebuttals of this argument against e-scoots. Bring 'em on.

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    Those things are scooters with some pedals added.

  16. #16
    put our Heads Together cerewa's Avatar
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    I'd prefer to switch the focus to Bike shops. They seem to HATE electric bikes and won't work on mine. They have great fear of the electrical parts and the motor. Odd. Anyone know why this is?
    Because they don't know how to fix it, that's why they won't work on it! They are in the bike business to make money, (not that they can make very much) and they won't make money telling you "sorry I can't fix this, go somewhere else."
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  17. #17
    Share the Bike Lane Golectric's Avatar
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    I love Scooter style BIKES. I sell them and service them and they really are bikes. They are much safer on public paths then Open Frame bikes, roller bladers and people wearing headphones. They also are more comfortable and more practical then riding a petal powered bike 15KM to work in 33 degree C temps. I also like riding the other types of bikes but feel safer on my scooter style, especially in traffic. Petal power has its place, it has history and nostalga. No sense arguing if its a bike or not. Thankfully it is considered a bike by LAW and can go anywhere a bike can go.

  18. #18
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    Personally, I would love to own and ride a lithium battery based electric scooter (without pedals!). But I would never take them on trails and sidewalks -- 175lbs of plastic and metal is different from a 50lb one. And it doesn't make sense to clump them with electric bicycles since the whole experience of riding one is like a motorcycle rather than a bicycle.

    It's often said that the bicycle is the most efficient form of transportation. That's true if you look at the bicycle by itself (it's design, frame, wheels, etc). But if you add the power behind it, an electric motor is actually much more efficient than the human body (sorry, I don't have numbers or references... just my best edumacated guess). So combined with the engine, an electric bicycle is more efficent than a regular bicycle. And in terms of carbon footprint, again, I believe electric bicycles produce less carbon than regular bicycles because it takes a lot of carbon to grow and create the food we eat to power our regular bicycles.

    I don't really think there's a lot of in fighting within the electric bicycle community. But there's definitely more clashes with regular bicyclists who often look down upon electric bicycles without even trying them.

  19. #19
    put our Heads Together cerewa's Avatar
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    I believe electric bicycles produce less carbon than regular bicycles because it takes a lot of carbon to grow and create the food we eat to power our regular bicycles.
    I'm pretty sure this holds true if the regular-bicycle rider eats like the average citizen of a first-world country. But probably not, if we're talking about somebody who mostly eats locally grown non-industrial-agriculture type vegan food.

    In any case, 40 to 200 pound e-bikes are so much more efficient than 3000 pound economy cars, there's almost no comparing them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cerewa View Post
    Because they don't know how to fix it, that's why they won't work on it! They are in the bike business to make money, (not that they can make very much) and they won't make money telling you "sorry I can't fix this, go somewhere else."
    But this is what is so baffling about the attitude. They won't make any money from me because they have sent me away. I'm thankful for the forums I have found or I would have had no help when the bike needs repair. They won't even maintain the regular bike parts. I just don't get the attitude. It is contrary to business profitmaking. So now I will become my own bike mechanic... maybe I should print up business cards.. LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golectric View Post
    They are much safer on public paths then Open Frame bikes, roller bladers and people wearing headphones.
    Please explain to me how a 175lb e-scooter is much safer on a public path than an open frame bike. According the laws of physics, the heavier a vehicle the longer it's stopping distance, and the more damage it will do in a collision with another object or person, all other factors being equal.

    All you supporters of these e-scoots keep harping about how much safer they are than an e-bike. You may feel safer yourself, surrounded by all that plastic bodywork, but you're not. My BionX e-bike will out-accelerate and out-brake any e-scooter. Once again, it's simple physics. The lighter vehicle will accelerate faster, stop quicker, and handle more responsively. And that's what safety in traffic is all about - having the acceleration and braking ability to avoid a collision.

    As far as safety on a bike path or sidewalk goes, their sheer bulk, in size and weight, combined with their ponderous handling and stopping (in)abilities, make them a hazard to others. How do you think a parent of a pre-schooler riding their bikes on bike path, feels when they see your great big lumbering, motor-scooter-looking vehicle come around a corner, straight at their little darling? No wonder you get no respect, and are yelled at to get off the bike path.

    The letter of the law may be on your side, but many times, the law is an ass.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autoworker View Post
    If you're so concerned about the environment, and going green, why would you defend the addition of another 100lbs of junk to a perfectly adequate bike, for no other reason than to look cool as a "biker" and not a bicyclist?

    As I stated in another thread: Electric bike legislation

    "...why not choose a 50 to 75lb vehicle over a 175lb one that does nothing better than the lighter one, except deplete more natural resources?

    Apart from the added extra materials and energy wasted in the manufacture of the scooter-style e-bike, consider how many more bicycle-style e-bikes will fit in a container being shipped from China, and therefore how much more diesel fuel is wasted in shipping the scoots, along with the resulting pollution.

    The BionX units are manufactured in Quebec, and weigh less than 20lbs. Want to compare carbon footprints from factory door to your door?

    Sorry, but you just can't argue logically for the existence of these things. Their only justification is for people who want to look like they're riding a motor scooter and not a bicycle."

    There is no method of human transportation ever invented that is more efficient than the bicycle. The addition of an electric hub motor such as the BionX increases the range and utility of the humble bicycle to a greater order of magnitude, especially for those of limited physical capacity. Why **** it up with by adding useless junk to make it look like a motorized scoooter when it's obviously not?

    You e-scoot riders remind me of a bunch of Harley-wannabees.

    I'd like to hear your rebuttals of this argument against e-scoots. Bring 'em on.
    You know, that's a completly unconstructive position to have.

    If you're going to act like that, some people would prefer to distance themselves from people like you. What you're doing is driving away potential bikers back into their cars.

    My coworker said it best: "If riding a bike is going to make me become a close minded a-hole like this jerk, I'll stick to my car!". That's what he said about you Autoworker when I showed him your post.

    And he's not the only one to think like this. Many car drivers think you "purists" are nothing more than a bunch of snobs and want nothing to do with you guys.

    So think of that the next time a car almost hits you. That driver could've been a cyclist instead if it weren't for your big mouth!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by How2 View Post
    But this is what is so baffling about the attitude. They won't make any money from me because they have sent me away. I'm thankful for the forums I have found or I would have had no help when the bike needs repair. They won't even maintain the regular bike parts. I just don't get the attitude. It is contrary to business profitmaking. So now I will become my own bike mechanic... maybe I should print up business cards.. LOL!
    Not to mention these people are completly blind to what's really going on out there.

    I was at Costco last week and one day they had 4 ebike (scooter look alikes). I go there the next day and they're all sold out. 4 in one day. Damn!

    With high gas prices this is actually happening more and more. eBikes everwhere are sold out. Bike shops refusing to acknowledge this growing market segment will simply fall behind.

    As far as I'm concerned, anything that will help people leave their cars at home and reduce our fossil fuel usage is good news.

    I know a pure bike is the best option but let's be open minded and let people gradually step out of their cars in their own comfort level.Trying to impose our own views of cycling is just counter-productive.

    Think of it this way the next time you see an e-Scooter masqurading as an eBike: AT LEST HE'S NOT DRIVING AN SUV TO WORK!

  24. #24
    Location: US
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuser View Post
    Not to mention these people are completly blind to what's really going on out there.

    I was at Costco last week and one day they had 4 ebike (scooter look alikes). I go there the next day and they're all sold out. 4 in one day. Damn!

    With high gas prices this is actually happening more and more. eBikes everwhere are sold out. Bike shops refusing to acknowledge this growing market segment will simply fall behind.

    As far as I'm concerned, anything that will help people leave their cars at home and reduce our fossil fuel usage is good news.

    I know a pure bike is the best option but let's be open minded and let people gradually step out of their cars in their own comfort level.Trying to impose our own views of cycling is just counter-productive.

    Think of it this way the next time you see an e-Scooter masqurading as an eBike: AT LEST HE'S NOT DRIVING AN SUV TO WORK!
    Here, here!!

    I parked my bike outside a local restaurant yesterday and turned the battery power off and the gal next to me inside asked if I had an alarm on my bike. She did not realize I had an electric motor on the bike and thought i had turned on some kind of alarm. We chatted a bit about the benefits of the bike and then she said, 'oh, those things will never catch on.. especially around here'. I told her that my town was perfect for this technology because it has 'about' a 20 mile radius to get places. She seemed really bothered and I later found out she works for a locally owned gasoline company... LOL! (i bet she secretly wants one now!)

    Wouldn't it be great if America stopped purchasing gasoline for about a week. I'd LOVE to see what gasoline prices would do then. (i can dream about my utopian ideas... at least.)

  25. #25
    Recently Re-tired.
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    In my happy place.
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    Lightfoot Ranger, Maxarya (both recumbents), Strida, Dahon Jetsream E-bike, Dahon Curve SL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuser View Post
    You know, that's a completly unconstructive position to have.

    If you're going to act like that, some people would prefer to distance themselves from people like you. What you're doing is driving away potential bikers back into their cars.

    My coworker said it best: "If riding a bike is going to make me become a close minded a-hole like this jerk, I'll stick to my car!". That's what he said about you Autoworker when I showed him your post.

    And he's not the only one to think like this. Many car drivers think you "purists" are nothing more than a bunch of snobs and want nothing to do with you guys.

    So think of that the next time a car almost hits you. That driver could've been a cyclist instead if it weren't for your big mouth!
    WAAAHHH! You hurt my feelings!

    Lots of name calling and character assassination going on here, but hey, I'm an autoworker, I'm used to it!

    Love me or hate me, I don't really care. Just refute my criticisms and arguments against the scooter-style e-bikes, or STFU!!!

    If you or anyone else wants to ride a 175lb hideous parody of a quasi-motorcycle, be my guest. Just keep off the bike paths, and don't try to justify it in the name of the environment or claim that you're riding a bicycle, because you come up short on all counts. You just appear as dorky wannabee motorcycle riders who don't have the balls to get licensed and ride the real thing.

    I'm still waiting for an intelligent refutation of my arguments against e-scoots. Your silence is deafening!

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