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  1. #1
    Senior Member stokell's Avatar
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    New Ontario Regulations Regarding ebikes?

    Ontario regulators must have been monitoring this forum. It seems that they have changed their web site regarding new and alternative vehicles.

    The new page adds tricycles and has removed the illustration of electric scooters from the electric bicycles subheading, and inserted that an electric bicycle "is designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power and to travel on not more than three wheels"

    Hmm.

  2. #2
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    There is a God in Heaven after all.

  3. #3
    Senior Member kamalster's Avatar
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    From the page: "The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot’s e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight."

    Good on them for actually being so specific about it.

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    Senior Member Snowsurfer's Avatar
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    I like it. People trying to circumvent the law while risking the safety of others with their own selfishness. Justice will be served.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by stokell View Post
    Ontario regulators must have been monitoring this forum. It seems that they have changed their web site regarding new and alternative vehicles.

    The new page adds tricycles and has removed the illustration of electric scooters from the electric bicycles subheading, and inserted that an electric bicycle "is designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power and to travel on not more than three wheels"

    Hmm.
    Read the amendment...hohummm!! This is like going backwards with these guys....TheMTOAmendment (3).pdf

  6. #6
    Senior Member kamalster's Avatar
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    From the amendment: "a mechanism that prevents the motor from
    being engaged before the bicycle attains 3
    km/hr".

    Can you even get those scooter-style bikes going to 3 kph with the pedals? It may be possible in theory, but at 175lbs, I have my doubts.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamalster View Post
    From the amendment: "a mechanism that prevents the motor from
    being engaged before the bicycle attains 3
    km/hr".

    Can you even get those scooter-style bikes going to 3 kph with the pedals? It may be possible in theory, but at 175lbs, I have my doubts.
    Guys, come on....read before you quote...We all went though this back in October of 2006...Keep up with the program....
    You don't have to be lawyer to comprehend this stuff...and yes you can to your statement....my bike weighs 132 lbs.

    f. has one of the following safety features,
    i. an enabling mechanism to turn the electric
    motor on and off that is separate from the
    accelerator controller and fitted in such a
    manner that it is operable by the driver, or
    ii. a mechanism that prevents the motor from
    being engaged before the bicycle attains 3
    km/hr

  8. #8
    Share the Bike Lane Golectric's Avatar
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    NOTE: A commitment has been made to evaluate the pilot prior to its three-year expiry. The intent of the ministry’s pilot was to allow e-bikes that look and operate like conventional bikes in order to promote a safe, healthy and environmentally friendly alternative to current transportation modes.
    The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot’s e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight. Therefore, in addition to evaluating how safely the e-bike can integrate with other motor vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians, the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot’s original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry may clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted.
    Why not Quote the whole addition, If I understand it correctly the ministry is to assess if their "intent" was appropriate.

    Of course their intent was not appropriate, How could they have not realized that scooter style bikes would appear. They had been on BC roads for 4 years prior!!

    Take a look at this http://www.icbc.com/registration/reg...std_cycles.asp

    Or should we keep Ontario backazzwords

  9. #9
    Senior Member kamalster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewdad View Post
    Guys, come on....read before you quote...We all went though this back in October of 2006...Keep up with the program....
    You don't have to be lawyer to comprehend this stuff...and yes you can to your statement....my bike weighs 132 lbs.
    No, actually, we didn't ALL go through it back in October of 2006. Not everybody has been into cycling all along. Chill out, man.

  10. #10
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    My apologies...

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    This is from the ICBC in BC a government owned and operated Insurance Company that has been "aware" of the
    two styles from the beginning and has recognized both styles under the program...Since we are all mature adults it
    is nice that we can have a choice since both styles attract a different audience and fulfill the "intent" of the Ministry to get people out of their cars and onto a bike without polluting the environment...I find personally the scooter style bike to do this more efficiently...but both e-bikes have a place in our society....

    the official site is www.icbc.com and search MAC (motor assisted cycles) and will explain the differences between a moped and motor assisted cycle....Let's not judge a bike, because of it's cover...LOL
    Last edited by dewdad; 06-20-08 at 12:21 PM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member kamalster's Avatar
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    I agree that it's great that there are a lot of choices out there for people to get out of their cars, at least for some trips, and onto e-bikes. I do have my doubts about whether all of these styles belong on MUPs, however. Until I see some data on the maneuverability and braking ability of the scooter-style e-bikes, my immediate reaction is that something that large/heavy shouldn't allowed to barrel down a MUP at up to 32kph when that MUP may be crowded with unpredictable pedestrians.

  13. #13
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    Could not agree with you more....when riding on a bike path...slow right down....I personally average 6 or 7 km per hour....In my case the bicycle path shaves off a good 15 minutes of riding....As I mentioned the riders of this style of bike are generally an older more sophisticated generation not the least bit interested in speed...I have a motorcycle licence but I have not had one in 20 years (wife won;t let me) these are not about the need for speed as they are a quiet, non polluting and inexpensive way to commute...Oh yeah and fun...the drum brakes on these vehicles I find to be excellent at any speed. I have never seen anyone doing 32 through a park on a bike path and there are at least a dozen riders in my area....and I agree with you that not even a bicyclist should "barrel" down a bike path...both are capable and both should not.
    Last edited by dewdad; 06-20-08 at 12:50 PM.

  14. #14
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    An examination of data covering the period 1975 - 2002 from Transport Canada [1,2], a federal government agency, shows that Canada is replicating the experiences of Australia and the US, where no effect of increased helmet use among cyclists can be detected from prevailing fatality trends. As with other studies, our analysis uses pedestrians as a control group since pedestrians are vulnerable road users and are likely to benefit equally with cyclists from general safety campaigns, such as those involving roadside breath-testing of motorists and speed surveillance using radar equipment.

    Conclusions


    It is apparent that mass helmet use is not contributing to the reduction in cyclist fatalities, at least not in any measurable way. The results suggest that traffic authorities should refocus to put their efforts into other proven measures. Programs aimed at motorist behaviour over the past 20 or so years have been effective in reducing fatalities among all road user groups, including pedestrians and cyclists. Pressure on aggressive drivers to change their habits should continue. However, targetting the behaviour of only one of the parties would be short sighted. Cyclist-specific measures are also needed. There are two important factors in cycling fatalities which currently get insufficient attention - cyclist behaviour and night lighting equipment. The vast majority of cycling accidents involve cyclist error or inappropriate practices. That includes collisions with motor vehicles [5]. Educational efforts to improve cyclists' skills should be accorded a high priority. School age children are the obvious target group. Responsible behaviour patterns need to be adopted at an early age. The corollary is stricter enforcement of bicycle night lighting laws. Over 90% of bicycles involved in night time fatalities have inadequate lighting [6]. Violaters increase their risks of being fatality statistics by a factor of four [7]. Data from Ontario show 20% to 30% of fatalities occur at dusk or during the hours of darkness [7-9].


    There are many "accidents" with cyclists too....should they be outlawed or insured...absolutely not...
    I love my scooter style bike alone for the overall nightime visibilty as I am tooling to the corner store....
    Last edited by dewdad; 06-20-08 at 01:04 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewdad View Post
    An examination of data covering the period 1975 - 2002 from Transport Canada [1,2], a federal government agency, shows that Canada is replicating the experiences of Australia and the US, where no effect of increased helmet use among cyclists can be detected from prevailing fatality trends. As with other studies, our analysis uses pedestrians as a control group since pedestrians are vulnerable road users and are likely to benefit equally with cyclists from general safety campaigns, such as those involving roadside breath-testing of motorists and speed surveillance using radar equipment.

    Conclusions


    It is apparent that mass helmet use is not contributing to the reduction in cyclist fatalities, at least not in any measurable way. The results suggest that traffic authorities should refocus to put their efforts into other proven measures. Programs aimed at motorist behaviour over the past 20 or so years have been effective in reducing fatalities among all road user groups, including pedestrians and cyclists. Pressure on aggressive drivers to change their habits should continue. However, targetting the behaviour of only one of the parties would be short sighted. Cyclist-specific measures are also needed. There are two important factors in cycling fatalities which currently get insufficient attention - cyclist behaviour and night lighting equipment. The vast majority of cycling accidents involve cyclist error or inappropriate practices. That includes collisions with motor vehicles [5]. Educational efforts to improve cyclists' skills should be accorded a high priority. School age children are the obvious target group. Responsible behaviour patterns need to be adopted at an early age. The corollary is stricter enforcement of bicycle night lighting laws. Over 90% of bicycles involved in night time fatalities have inadequate lighting [6]. Violaters increase their risks of being fatality statistics by a factor of four [7]. Data from Ontario show 20% to 30% of fatalities occur at dusk or during the hours of darkness [7-9].


    There are many "accidents" with cyclists too....should they be outlawed or insured...absolutely not...
    I love my scooter style bike alone for the overall nightime visibilty as I am tooling to the corner store....

    I've got to tell you, I've read your posts on this thread frontwards and backwards, and I have no idea how they relate to the thread. Do you need to start your own anti-helmet thread?

    It is my understanding that this thread relates to e-bikes in Ontario, not electric scooters insurance in British Columbia or unsubstanciated helmet scrum. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by electrogreen View Post
    I've got to tell you, I've read your posts on this thread frontwards and backwards, and I have no idea how they relate to the thread. Do you need to start your own anti-helmet thread?

    It is my understanding that this thread relates to e-bikes in Ontario, not electric scooters insurance in British Columbia or unsubstanciated helmet scrum. Please tell me if I'm wrong.
    they are power assisted bicycles......a scooter has a gas powered engine....you must have missed my point...but the info was from Transport Canada...
    Last edited by dewdad; 06-22-08 at 03:40 PM.

  17. #17
    Share the Bike Lane Golectric's Avatar
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    I've got to tell you, I've read your posts on this thread frontwards and backwards, and I have no idea how they relate to the thread.
    Thats really not suprising Electrogreen

  18. #18
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    I think an easy way to define "motor assisted cycle" would be, can it be used, non-motor effectively?
    I'd set up a test, 5 miles, mostly flat. If a vehicle could be ridden, non-motor at 12 mph average on the course, then it is a motor assisted cycle. If it can't it is a limited speed motorcycle. Seems simple enough.
    Not too much to say here

  19. #19
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewdad View Post

    ]
    I could ride the second vehicle 12 mph for 5 miles on flat ground. But not the first.
    I guess it should be easy, is it primarily a motor vehicle, or a pedal vehicle?
    Not too much to say here

  20. #20
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    a Speed and weight limit seems to be the most practical for a unlicensed unregistered vehicle. One should expect limitations on where that vehicle can be ridden though. Alberta has quite good regs on powered bicycle. I would like the weight to be slightly higher though. Seems hard to build a really practical and economical powered bike under 35kgs.
    Ed

  21. #21
    Share the Bike Lane Golectric's Avatar
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    Maddyfish, Not a problem. We can build whatever we want. The Canadian Federal law defines a power assisted bike and it say's capable of being propelled by muscular power. It use to say primarally, they changed it. Why did they change it? Because they want to give people options.
    [SIGPIC]http://www.bikeforums.net/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=108773&dateline=1238372238[/SIGPIC]I ride a scooter style electric bike with pedals
    GO GREEN-GOLECTRIC

  22. #22
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    I suspect it will be going back to the old definition. The veloteq makes a mockery of the law. Basically it is a motor scooter with pedals attached only so it can fit into the wording of the law. From what I have read the Alberta regs are pretty good. The easiest solution though is to require all motor vehicles to be registered and licensed.
    Not too much to say here

  23. #23
    Share the Bike Lane Golectric's Avatar
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    I suspect it will be going back to the old definition
    Possible, but a step backwards if it does. IMHO

    The veloteq makes a mockery of the law. Basically it is a motor scooter with pedals attached only so it can fit into the wording of the law
    The petals are not intended to mock the law. They are there to comply with the law that the bike has petals that are capable of propelling the vehicle. They do this quite well.



    From what I have read the Alberta regs are pretty good
    Yes, a province that makes how much from the sale of oil? They have a very big interest is seeing less cars on the road???

    The easiest solution though is to require all motor vehicles to be registered and licensed.
    I agree, but by law a power assited bike is not considered a motorized vehicles

    VELOTEQS ARE MOTOR SCOOTERS, NOT BIKES!
    Veloteqs are electric motor scooters that qualify as a power assisted bike. They are safe, they are fun, they are practical, they are a great forward thinking vehicle and will only get better.

    Just because a Big Wheel has pedals, doesn't make it bike.
    Your right, most would consider it a trike
    [SIGPIC]http://www.bikeforums.net/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=108773&dateline=1238372238[/SIGPIC]I ride a scooter style electric bike with pedals
    GO GREEN-GOLECTRIC

  24. #24
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    All the dealers of scooter style e-bikes are sold out again...they are gone before they come in....
    Those that oppose will always oppose...who cares....you certainly don't have to explain yourself to the thousands that own one...Ask someone what they think of a Ford...One person will say it is the best car on the road and one will say it is the worst car on the road...Opinions...doesn't make it true....

  25. #25
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    Dew is 100% right in what he said......

    The people who ride a scooter style "ebike" will tell you it's a bicycle with motor assist.

    The people who don't, say they are a motorized means of transport and should be treated as such.

    It's public opinion. Does it matter in the long run???? No.

    What matters right now is what the Government says, and in most of North America ( if not all), 500w or less with peddles attached is a bicycle.

    Neither side will win the argument fully, because both sides have valid points + opinion.

    If your for, let your local Government know your views, not people on a message board. If your against, also let your local Government know how you feel, because your only going to frustrate your self trying to argue the point with people who feel as strongly as you do.

    In the end rules will be made, changed, or writen to suit the mix of Transport required by the people, but done so by the people who matter in the end.......The Government.

    It does not matter a whole lot where I stand on the issue, because I am no more important then the next person, but I will make my thoughts known to any person I run across from Local Government.
    I'm just a caveman. I fell asleep on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.

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