Abneycat

Here's another comparison chart. Unfortunately it does not contain the 5 series, but there are 4 series on there.

https://www.cycle9.com/Products/HubMo...or-compare.pdf

I don't believe that the simulator on ebikes.ca accurately reflects the differences between the motors. I would contact someone there for specific information. In our testing, our BMC motors consistently provide superior distance and output per watt over direct drive systems, I would expect similar results from eZee given their similarities. However, we've also dealt with the Crystalyte 5 series for a long time, and they are fine kits as well.

Really, I agree with Unime. I've seen solar trikes before, and the only design you're going to get good value out of is one that gives the most mechanical output for the least energy, because you're really not going to be able to carry a lot of energy production on the trike in a reasonable fashion and the thing will simply end up a fiasco if you're carrying extra weight, cost, and complexity, for little added benefit.

Given that you'd have a poor time dealing with the fickle alignment needs and heavier weight of mono/polycrystalline panels, i'd think that flexible amorphous solutions would be a good option as well, although it would be harder to custom build an array to conveniently deploy.

simplecj

What fiasco? The only difference in this system with or without a solar system is the panels and a panel charge controller.

Again.. even if my system isn't the most efficient, any solar is better than none right?

I already stated that they will not contribute to drag and they weigh so little that they won't make much difference on total mass. I bet wearing a backpack with a few textbooks in it while I ride would have a bigger effect.

Abneycat

Yes and no on any solar being better than none.

Well, make a comparison to other options for instance.

Home charging?
The panels could be aligned for great efficiency, remain safer from damage or theft, keep the weight of the system lower and remove the potential nuisance of having an unwieldy 50+ watt panel structure, and so on. They could be fed to other devices within your household as needed as well, increasing their overall yield if they produce a surplus. The weight freed by the solar panels being removed could be taken up with increased battery capacity, making the trike travel further, as well.

The trike would then still be solar powered, but with additional benefits and tradeoffs.

Personally, if someone were to show me a solar powered vehicle that was only marginally boosted by the panels, yet came with the cost, complexity and vulnerability of such a setup, I wouldn't consider it worth it, no. To me, the solar would have to have enough influence on the system to make it worth its downsides, and a small boost wouldn't do it if I could simply get much better result with a home based system, or just buying my energy from someone like Bullfrog, for instance.

I think carrying the energy production capacity with you is great, but it has to be worth it over the other alternatives to be useful, and that means having a system capable of providing good output on its own.

simplecj

I don't want to purchase a 50W system for my bike just to have it sit at home.

I think you're missing my point, I don't care if the panels put out much power. I certainly don't expect them to drive the motor at all. As I originally state, they are more of a passive charging system than an all out power source. A few small 12V panels won't cost much, won't weigh much and will not significantly increase the complexity of my project.

If nothing else, just think of it as a minor feature that will look cool and help supply energy, however little it does, while you're not riding it (ie: outside your house before you leave, while it's parked at work or school or wherever. You can't always plug in, but you can park in the sun....

I'm guessing I'll have about 4 to 8 square feet on top of the trunk, why not put solar panels on it???

There's tonz of these 5W 12V solar panels for charging vehicles and they're about 12x18 inches and pretty flat. Three of them side by side and I can supply 5W of free energy to my batteries. They're selling from $20 to $50 each, but I'm pretty sure I can get my local solar company to donate them.

Optimaman

Post up the pictures when you're done. I've run my 5305 on 48SLA volts and 74LiPoly and man, on the 74 volt Lipoly it is downright scary powerful! If it weren't for the measly current limitations of the controller, I can probably do 0-40 in about 5 seconds! My cells are 10,000 mah lipos rated at 10C continuous, 20C peak and I'm using 20s1p and sometimes 10s2p for longer runs. I'm presently using the 5303 with 10s2p - good balance of power and range and decent speed. Mine's for leisure only.

simplecj

Probably one of the trickiest parts of this project is going to be building the trunk. I'm thinking of doing it out of composite fiberglass. That way I can have a big trunk without it weighing too much.

I'm familiar with composites, but I haven't actually done it. I'm good with auto-body work and I'm pretty sure I can tackle composites. It's just laminating layers of fabric with epoxy, can't be that difficult!

I will certainly post pics as I progress through the project. I'll probably start a new thread once I have decided on all my components and actually start putting it all together.

simplecj

... I really need to look at the bike, wish it would get here already. I'm now rethinking my approach.

I was looking around and the only solar charge controller that will do 36v is either $75 from hong kong, or like $500 from some other company...

Perhaps you are right, maybe I should forgo the solar system and focus on something more useful like a proper quick charging system for around 10 to 30 minute charges.

I'm also considering going with a regular motor instead of the hub. If there was some good way to adapt a motor into the gearing of the bike, maybe add a few gears to the rear axle. If I can forget about the solar panels and making the trunk big enough, I should have enough time to work on a better system, not to mention it would be hundreds of dollars cheaper....

... ugh... I just really need to see the bike....

EDIT: scratch that... too much work. I did notice that they have a nifty brake shoe and drum set on the rear driveline and the ability to set it in "park". Don't think I should mess with that... damn hubs, why are there so few good geared hubs? It'd be nice if I could have some variety to choose from. The stinkin eZee is more expensive and less powerful... boo! I've heard too many people tell me that I will want the ability to power up, the eZee does not afford me that opption. At $1250 for the kit, you'd think it'd be more flexible.

HOT DIGGITY DAMN!!! I just realized that if I don't have the solar panels to worry about, I can just buy a motorcycle trunk to mount on the bike. They look really good and they lock, it's perfect!!

PaPa

That's a very poor EV candidate. Because of the elevated CoG, attempting speeds much over 10 mph will be foolish at best and likely get someone hurt - and 20 mph isn't even realistic. Optimum deltas should have 66% of the laden weight over the rear axle, and the optimum CoM location should be no higher than half the track's width. Any higher and the trike becomes susceptible to roll-overs.

simplecj

Well, I personally don't think 20 is really that fast. It feels like crawling in a car and I know I get going faster than that on my mountain bike with no problem. Yes obviously you would need to slow down to take corners, on a trike you'd be stupid not to. But really, would you want to limit yourself to under 10mph, even on long straight treks?? Heck no! Other people have electric trikes like this one and they say they love it.

I don't want one of those crazy looking low riding trikes with 16 inch wheels. I want a cruiser. How much do those specialized trikes cost? $1200??

I got this bike because it was cheap and has an aluminum frame, room for a cargo/electronics rear trunk, good brakes and sturdy construction. I got it for $210 with tax, but every review I've read has raved about how well this bike is built and how enjoyable it is to ride, as I said, a few of them even mentioned putting a front hub motor on it and that it was fine.

The bike is only as dangerous as the operator is careless... you could roll or wreck on any bike, motorized or not.

PaPa

The dynamics of single track vehicles (i.e MTBs and road bikes) are completely different from trikes, so direct comparisons are not possible. https://www.jetrike.com/why-does-tilting-matter.html

And pushing the trike's speed outside its designed envelope is indeed careless. And the first time you attempt an evasive maneuver at speed, (to avoid collision with a dog, for example), you'll quickly discover its limitations.

To be clear, I'm not trying to discourage your project. My only intent (as a professional designer/builder), is help you avoid skin loss.. or worse.

simplecj

So what... how fast do you think is safe on a trike like this? I'm sure they're geared to go at least 10mph without much effort and no electric assist.

What about the 4011 Crystalyte motor? It has a top speed of about 15 with a 36V battery in it. Only problem is it doesn't have much torque for lugging around a 300+ pound load.

Or I can drop my voltage lower to get slower speeds. I guess 10mph isn't too bad just for cruising around town.

I guess maybe a geared hub would be better, more torque less top end. Are there any other geared hubs to compare to the eZee? I just don't like the several hundred dollars more I'd have to pay for the eZee over a more powerful system. Doesn't seem right to me. It has a smaller motor and a relatively low current limit. What am I paying for?? Planetary gears??

PaPa

https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=21

James1986

Where did you manage to find those batteries at $5 each?

SeizeTech

this is a sincere question, I'm not trying to give a hard time...

What part of you project qualifies this as a suitable engineering project? ie what kind of features and technology will bring this bike out of the ranks of hobbyist, and into the ranks of academia?

rgds
Tyler

simplecj

Papa: What exactly are you pointing at? The eBike forum @ endless sphere??

James: We got the cells used from a hybrid company in Colorado. They had used them in some experimental packs used to power remote communication stations (why a hybrid company is doing that, I don't know) We purchased over 1200 cells total at $5 each. They were in questionable condition when we got them, some of the sets were drained to just above zero volts. We had the majority of them tested in California and the results came back good, the cells had still maintained their capacity and load abilities even though they had been improperly cared for.

SeizeTech: Well initially the engineering aspect was to tie together a solar charging system with an electric bike, but apparently in order to make that efficient you have to make everything else about the bike low weight, low rolling resistance ect. I don't have the time or money to do that, so I guess I'm dropping the solar in favor of designing a quick-charge system for the A123 batteries, hopefully something that will give me a full charge in 10 to 30 minutes.

I realize this isn't an extraordinary project by engineering standards, but I'm also only at the BS level of engineering, not a masters. Our school has a small department which has recently lost most of it's funding, as well as several of our few faculty members which were replaced by two new ones. Our new department chair last year had us working on an airplane project (mechanical and composite work), 200hp electric motorcycle project, and facilities planning for a building our department was taking over. The chair is no longer with us this semester and our department is somewhat in dissaray, so it's up to us to find something useful to do.

My program is Integrated Engineering, so basically just general engineering with no real emphasis on anything in particular. Some other projects my classmates are working on include working on a rotary engine for use in a small airplane we have, designing roadbase for a local civil firm, designing a programable climbing wall with lights to mark paths, and another pair is doing a solar home design (I'll be surprised if they really get anywhere with this one).

From an engineering standpoint, my project will most likely involve comparison of different drive systems and components as well as the application of the advanced lithium technology that A123 offers. I would think a quick charge system for these cells would be of interest to anyone who's tired of waiting 4 to 10 hours to recharge their bike.

Of course there is much to be analysed and calculated formally, right now I'm just trying to get together my project proposal, which is due today. I spent most of the semester waiting to hear from one of my professors about funding for a project he was going to have me work on (and get paid for). The project was analysing the blade of a wind turbine using Fluent, a dynamic fluid analysis program, to test and modify the blade profile to get the best performance. Unfortunately I found out a few weeks ago that the funding did not go through (damn recession) and so now I have to come up with a senior project that I can do in one semester.

simplecj

The saddest part is that I am really interested in electronics and alternative energies, but quite honestly I feel that our program failed us in properly teaching electronics in favor of cramming circuits, electronics and mechatronics into single semester classes taught by professors who either did not specialize in electronics or were just plain unprepared to teach the courses.

Designing the charging unit will be a major challenge for me, but I hope that it will be a means of strengthening my understanding of electronics.

Also, this project may serve to promote electric vehicles and alternative energies in general. I am hopefully going to be getting a job working for a local solar & wind power company in January and was wanting to incorporate solar, but apparently with my proposed vehicle solar just isn't viable.

I would love to actually design my own bike from scratch, but I have very limited or no access to the needed fabrication systems like pipe benders and other machining equipment, not to mention the money and enourmous amount of time it would take to do it all from scratch. So, I'm limited to affordable canned systems for the majority of my project.

Not ground-breaking work I know... but what can I do??

As eBike enthusiasts, is there anything else that you think would be a useful project that can fit my constraints??

Tourezrick

I got my MPPT controller from John Drake Services - paid $104 for it, nice, small package. John has a wide range of products available, shipped promptly, personal note of thanks written on invoice.

https://www.solarseller.com/solar_con...t_tracking.htm

For a set of panels like I have, check out -

https://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=90599

Comes with 12v controller which outputs multiple voltages, 12v lights, collapsable rack for panels, wires.

FWIW - I have my front hubmotor for sale at -

https://www.bentrideronline.com/messa...ad.php?t=45376

And using the trike you spec'ed should work just as long as you don't allow yourself to get overly seduced by speed and testosterone. Brakes are meant for 'geezer riders', a fact which I recognize all too well, as most on this board will consider me to be in that category. My 36v WE hub will take you easily up to 15 mph without pedaling, and up to 20 or more with exhuberant pedaling, and being unable to stop can really hurt. So, slow for corners, no sudden turns, no 'stupid' tricks or risks. If you don't know the definition of a stupid risk - watch this video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xn-XlsTcck

She's young, cute, blonde and either very . . . we'll let you decide what she is.

crackerdog

While I think the A123 batteries are best available, you had better not run them down to 0 volts. It is the one way to kill these batteries fast. Check out endless sphere for details.
Have you taken this trike out for a ride at 25 mph? Better be wearing a metal suit.

PaPa

Yes. Enough EV talent at ES to polish your BS. Many of the guys there are sharp as a tack.

simplecj

By BS you mean....? Bachelors of Science right? I try not to indulge too much in the other meaning of it, but hey, I guess sometimes it happens huh?

I'll check it out and post a reformulated problem statement as soon as I get my proposal typed up.

I think Tourzrick might be onto something with the solar trailer idea. He gets 45W from his panels and that's certainly enough to extend the range and recharge during stops. Especially if you pair that with an efficient hub around 200W, which would mean the panels could supply almost a quarter of the energy. If I could only find a good geared hub that didn't cost so much. The eZee puts my power system costs alone up around $1000 not including solar panel system and battery charging system.

Perhaps that will be part of my proposal, to determine the best way to incorporate a solar charging system with an LEV in a meaningful manner and create some way of quantifying the advantages or disadvantages of using different system components to justify on-board solar. I loath the tedious data collection process, but I know it's the only way to show proof of principle...

SeizeTech

best of wishes for your project. I will be looking forward to reading any updates that you have time to show us.

some possible tips:
- considering purchasing a Cycle Analyst for data collection and testing
- consider tying everything to a microcontroller, then add as much intelligence to it as possible.

Also, check out battery university . com. I beleive that they dont reccomend quick charging a lithium battery because the balancing phase at the end of the charge cycle ends up taking longer, hence, there is no advantage if you are trying to preserve the long term life of the batteries. ie quick charging without balancing will be hard on them

have you considered regenerative braking with a supercap to take the charge?then slowly transfering the charge to the batteries? most regerative braking systems create too much current, too fast, so you ussually have to burn some of it up on a heat grid because its hard on the battery to charge at high current.

PaPa

Bull feces wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I typed, but now that you mention it....

James1986

Hi Simplecj,

My final year project is also designing an E-bike. Last year one of the people on my course designed a mechanical regenerative braking system for a trike, and used a direct drive motor, not a hub motor. These can be typically 95%+ efficient, wheras most hubs are 80% efficient.

Another idea for your project could be to do as you suggest, design a large charging device which could incorporate solar panels. However, the engineering feat could be that you design it for the commercial market, with the intention of selling these 'solar charging stations' to various service stations on the road networks. They can then put these next to their petrol pumps and voila, you have a network of possible e-bike routes where you can charge up, (for a small fee).

The technical aspects are pretty simple too. You can incorporate a couple of super capacitors to hold the charge, from the solar panels, and then quick dump charge any bikes that get connected. Any excess supply, once the caps are full, could be used to power the flashy lights advertising that this super cool service station can provide a full charge to your ebike in 10 minutes. Although you will have to design multiple outputs, for those who dont own those amazing lithium batteries =(

The best part is that the cost doesn't matter too much, as it won't be for home use, it would be for commercial. You could then justify it saying that one day, electric cars can use the same thing, so its a beneficial investment heh.

Good luck!

SeizeTech

nobody is going to be allowed to provide a full charge to my lithium ion batteries in 10 minutes not matter how safe they say it is.

I've got over $400 into my batteries, and I don't want to see them all cooked and expanded from a 10 minute charge.

SeizeTech

https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums...orks&start=285

check out this thread, it has pictures of how a battery can overheat and expand when you charge it too agressively.

Are you guys sure you are engineering students? if so, I suggest that you stop learning the vector math and calculus, and spend more time reading sites like www.batteryuniversity.com