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Thread: Tidal Force

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    Tidal Force

    Hi !
    I have been reading /not lurking - not correct word/ posts for sometime and today I joined this forums.
    Common sense, civilized conversations here, like it.
    I ride TidalForce Canadian restricted version in Calgary.
    Any TF owners from wherever in the world?
    Want to share.
    BTW I know about Google TF forum.
    Also, any owner of E+ bicycle /new version of TF bike.
    MC

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    Oldie Newbie Professor Foo's Avatar
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    I have a TidalForce M-750 that I commute on. Love the bike. Right now, the batteries and motor are at Light Electric Vehicle getting refurbished, and I'm going through the bike getting it ready for spring. Hope to have it back on the road within a couple of weeks.

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    ProfessorFoo,
    I never refurbished my hub, doesn`t have sense when TF can accept any 36V battery.
    It lasted bearly 3 seasons. And in 3th year it started to cut out often.
    At 1,2 V you need 30 (!!!) cells to have 36V. Batt is only as good as the weakest cell in string and with radiculus 30 cells chances are high that one will got bad,
    Lithium Polimer needs just 10 cells and LiFePo needs 12 cells for 36V.
    For a bit technically savvy people there is multitude of 36 V battery packs.
    our hubs weight 8.5kg, my LiFePo weights just 5.5kg and deliver real world 10Ah even in Turbo mode original hub will never deliver anywhere near 10AH!!
    There is no brainer here what to do when NMH hub goes belly up.
    Miroslaw
    Last edited by miro13car; 04-23-09 at 01:45 AM.

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    Welcome, fellow Calgarian!!! it is good to have you here.

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    I've had my TF-750 since 2004. Love that thing. It's been a complete replacement of cars for me for over 5 years now. Has about 10,000 miles on it and it's been my daily commuter with about 10% of that time pulling a heavy duty trailer. What I like best is it's near total silence, all you hear is the normal gearset clicking, no motor noise ever.

    The original hub batteries made it about 3 years and 3500 miles. I used to get an easy 12 miles out of a charge on them, once went 25 miles with a little pedaling. Since then, I've been on a 13 amphr NiMih from All-Battery. Can't believe it's made it about 3 years and 7000 miles, but they seem to be getting weaker now, and the charger lights never turn green anymore.

    I have a new Chrys 5304 4840 motor and 48V-10amp set of A-123 batteries sitting around. Been contemplating a switch of these onto the TF, but really hate to give up the TF motor for the noisy 5304, but I have another project in mind for it, and it's not like it's hard switching this stuff around.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by wernmax; 04-24-09 at 09:36 AM.

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    New Tidal Force Bike

    Does anyone know about a new Tidal Force bike that is coming out? I'm waiting for my friend to give me the details once he has them. I will also check the the offical Google forum to see if any info is on that site.

    Thanks,

    Mike

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    Treasure of Tidal Force is motor/controller built in - bullet proof, water-proof, completely silent, no any hint of shudder so common on Chinese motors. Reaching 13 000km with stellar performance of motor/controller. Open motor at about 10 000km - no droplet of water, no stain, no specle of rust inside. I like smoothness of TF controller and how smooth regen slow down bicycle.
    Yes, new E+ is basically upgraded TF , unfortunately upgrade is not where it should be, new interface display is fine, four modes of regen and 4 modes of motor power/old had only Normal and Turbo/ are nice, but enginering effort and cost should has gone into Lithium batteries, not display.
    Why supposed, claimed the best bicycle still have NMH battery - that is not the best.
    There is no brainer here , 500 cycles cannot be the best.
    EMS company/makes new E+/ should concentrate on designing new Lithium BMS , make it comm with DSP controller inside motor hub , redisign SOC electronics NOT work on gadgets like disply.
    500 cycles batt belong to museum , NMH had its time, and its time is over now
    no way it can compate with 2000cycles of LiFePo.
    8.5kg of NMH cannot win with 5kg of LiFePo - no way.
    Even the best in world SAFT NMH cannot last longer than 500 cycles not in string of 30 cells. NMH for low voltage 10 cell applacation maybe.
    MC

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    Oldie Newbie Professor Foo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Stein View Post
    Does anyone know about a new Tidal Force bike that is coming out?
    Haven't heard about a TidalForce, but Matra in France - http://www.matra-ms.com/ - is using the Wavecrest motor/battery system in several bikes. If you go to their website and follow the link: Velos et Cyclos Electriques - you'll find an IO lookalike and another IO variant. Looks like they're for sale around the continent (but not the UK, Canada or US?). I found out about Matra while reading the TidalForce Forum in Google Groups - http://groups.google.com/group/Tidal.../everything-tf

    Secondly, there are 3 TidalForce bikes currently for sale on ebay (disclaimer - not from me!). An M-750x, an S-750x, and an IO (i think). I found them with the following search string - (tidalforce,"tidal force") in the ebay search area. I'm surprised at how well they're holding their value.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Hello Pro Foo....I just bought an original 2005 750X TF with low miles from the original owner that stored the bike on the rear of his RV. The motor appears to have blown FET's, or so I'm told. The bike got wet. I'm curious the costs that LEVT charges. After talking to Shelli, she wanted me to send them the front/rear hubs & dash wiring. I'm hesitant as I wanted her to upgrade the FET's to allow 48V (currently max'd @ 44.5V) from the rear hub, & then I'd get my own battery source. They are refusing, as they say the bike would be able to do 40+mph & it's wouldn't be safe.

    Are you happy with the performance. & the "life" of the NiMH front hub battery setup & costs?

    Kit
    S.CA USA

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    Hello miro13car....you say "waterproof" on the rear hub of a 750X? I was told by Shelli @ LEVT that DON'T wash your bike with soap & water, which basically is what the prior owner did on the bike I just bought ('05 M-750X) by mounting the bike on the rear of his RV. It got wet.

    Maybe it's the "dash" that gets wets & shorts out the FET's in the hub?

    I've ask Shelli @ LEVT if they would upgrade the hubs FET's (max 44.5v) to allow 48V's or more. I was told they could do it, but they would not, "as it would be to fast for the bike, & it's not designed for it".

    I desire a minimum of 48V & 20amh of Lithium power source, preferably fitted in the front hub, or even in the "B" battery!

    With the current competition with the Stealth bomber from Australia, & of course the Optibike from Colorado, it makes the upgrade a MUST HAVE for all the TF owners.

    Kit
    S.CA USA

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    By waterproof I didn't mean it can be submerged in water , rather rain-proof, even heavy rean -proof, I was riding my TF in deluge many times.
    As with all ebikes just common sense tell us NOT to wash it with any pressure wash.
    You can wash normal bicycle in car wash but not electric that is for sure.
    BTW was previous owner to lazy to remove TF just pressure washed it WITH the RV ?
    i HAND WASH MY tf WITH WATER AND DISH SOAP VERY OFTEN , ONCE A WEEK AT LEAST IN SUMMER, BUCKET, BRUSH, dish soap, no pouring of water from the bucket on the bike of course.
    Unless you got dash wrongly assembled no way water will ever get inside - all wires enter from the bottom.
    I still not de-restricted my TF, stil max 20miles/hour.
    People report 31miles/hour on TFX - that is insanely fast I would say and plain crazy on bike paths.
    that is 48km/h in Canada. I cannot even imagine that kind of spped of paths except stright streaches of paths.
    Anyway you need battery, good one for X version.
    MC

    HAND WASH.

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    Update on New Tidalforce bikes

    Hello miro13car.....an update. The '05 TF M750X is still DOA, as I'm not to excited, or eager, to ship the front/rear hubs with the dash to LEVT, as I don't want a $2K bill. Instead I've been on the hunt for the other TF models & in fact bought a '05 IO 750 cruiser with 10.5 original miles ($500) & also bought a '05 TF S 750X ($500) with 20.5 original miles today. Both bikes were bought under unusual circumstances that were a windfall to me. Good timing. :-)

    It's interesting that I blew out the front tire on the IO cruiser in the first mile of a test ride to see the distance from the battery charge. I've since put on a pair of the same manufacturer tires but with white walls & I'm now installing a set of "shortie" '50's fender for that classic Southern California surfer look. I really like this "man" bike, though it's a shame it only goes 20mph. Maybe I'll have to do the software update with LEVT, as I want the ability to go 30+mph when I choose.

    I'm going to be working on a "battery" solution once the hubs die, & I have no intention of ever going back to NiMH chemistry. I'll also install a nice front rim & upgrade to a disc brake on all the TF bikes.

    And I'll be looking forward to "testing" out the S 750X in turbo mode tomorrow & of course determine the distance on the original front hub battery.

    Kit
    S.CA USA

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    Two more Tidalforce ebikes added to the collection

    Miro13car....just an update. I've just added a Black '05 Tidalforce IO cruiser with 10.5 original miles, and a Candy Apple Red Tidalforce S 750X 21spd with only 20.5 miles to the ebike collection! Currently @ 7 ebike units.

    I recharged the "brick" front hub, & only after riding less than 1 mile the front tire blew out! I've since installed two new, same manufacture, white wall tires & then a pair of Nirve shortie fenders for that '50's look. :-)

    http://www.nirve.com/accessories.asp?cid=3001

    It's a shame it's only a "legal" 20mph bike, as I prefer the 25+ option as on the S-750X bike. I'm going to update the front 44t gear to a 48t while going full speed. Great bike to ride, but I intend to have LEVT do the software X update. A shame I can't talk Shellie into a 48V upgrade of the rear hub too.

    Park1.jpg

    The other TF S-750X bike is also a pleasure to ride. It goes 25mph without peddling, or 27.5 mph with pedal assist on the flats, & I've had it up to 32.5mph on a downhill while peddling hard. I'm going to up the front gear from a 48t to a 52t to maintain the top speed.

    Side+IOcruiser.jpg

    How have your rides been going of late?

    Kit
    S.CA USA

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    Kit,
    Only noticed new post .
    Oh yes, I am in cold Alberta Canada and you bet I don't miss any opportunity to ride Tidal fORCE.
    It is IO cruser grey step-through esay to get on , not only for Ladies.
    Having 2 of them you will never have to buy another one.
    My went 18,500 km!!! acoording to original Cateye computer, which BTW is very accurate when you enter right to last centimeter circumference of wheel.
    Sweet silence . no shudders, no cogging , 7-phase motor one of the best if not the best.
    Did you visit TF Google forums and saw motor/controller dissassembled by one of the owners, you would understand why it lasts.
    After getting rid of NMH front hub my TF IO had been virtually trouble free, no loose connectors her, Tf uses Delphi automotive connectors, no broken spokes and rear very heavy wheel didn't required any trueing at all after over 18,000 km. My cost 3000 dollars with new battery but it lasts, this is no Walmart sort.
    Newer improved version of TF is E+bicycle, even more efficeint and 5kg less weight.
    I must get E+ .
    WARNING HERE
    E+ will not power up on any 36V battery like TF
    AND it is big draw back
    e4verybody interested, please call EMS manufacturer and tell them:
    Please, introduce Universal Battery Connector like you promised almost 2 yers ago.
    I call them twice and sent them my comments about UBC.
    PLS, do it.
    they say it is not enough demand for UBC??
    So pls. call them and say I want opportunity to power my E+ on any 36V just like legendary TF.
    MC
    MC

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    Hello MC, my Northern Canadian friend.....brrrrrrr, the weather is cold for you & most of the upper American States of late. Though it's been sunny, but in the low 60's lately here in Southern California. Still fine to ride the ebike ('05 TF S 750X) up to 30mph on the flats!

    There is a lot of traffic during the days, so I enjoy the late night rides when most people are home & not out driving.

    It's my understanding that Wavecrest Labs sold the patents of the TF bikes to Matra in France in Oct. 2005. The few engineers that worked there spun off & started E+, though were forced not to duplicate the original superior hub & made concessions to the hub. So, if you want a new "REAL" TF bike, you need to buy a Matra from France.

    http://www.greenpacks.org/2008/09/01...icycle-hybrid/

    I wouldn't mind having one, though the cost would be high.

    As I've said before, I'm now working on my fourth TF ebike which is a black '05 IO cruiser that was a "police model" (250 miles) with the X rear hub! The original front NiMH hub can only last about 100 yards, so my intent is to put together a system that works for all the TF bikes with a nice front disk brake rim to reduce weight & maybe a "Bionx" style lithium battery that attached to the water bottle screws. I'm looking at a water bottle style battery from China now.

    http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/wate...e-battery.html

    I'm buying these nice original TF bikes for a song, so it's financially to my advantage for me to have four original TF bikes than one E+ bike.

    I'd like to figure a way to get the TF bikes to use a 48V battery, though the hubs can only go to 44.5v before shutting down. I want to be able to go 35mph (56kh) if I need to. I will never be forced to only be locked into 20mph (33.8kh), legal or not.

    Have you thought of buying a "X" rear hub to update your bike?

    Kit
    S.CA USA

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    Tf

    Kit,
    and others TF and E+ enhustiasts.
    EMS is manufacturer of E+ and they state on their web site they built E+ on TF legend.
    E+ is definitely based on TF.
    I don`t know what exactely they sold to Matra.
    Those who started EMS for sure had access to TF documentation.
    Main engineer who co-desigmed TF MR.Rakish was on E+ development team, I know for sure and he was with EMS only like 2 years ago.
    Again TF and E+ were compared side by side by owner Bill von Nowak /see TF Google forum / and he concluded clearly E+ is at least 10% more efficient uses less Wh per mile than TF and is lighter 6KG than E+. E+ simply goes farther on given capacity battery.
    It has completely redisigned dash with 9 steps for regen and 9 steps for motor assist.
    Unfortunetely E+ has Nickel battery and because dash they changed communication dash-BMS of battery so is all digital and nobody knows how to make E+ to power under any 36V other than front hub 36V.
    Among all kind of protections built in on TF it has max voltage protecion - will not power up on more than 44V.
    Right now I am dillema to buy E+ kit or used TF X or reprogram sofware to X model.
    Do not know what to do??????
    The problem is I cannot ride E+ on LITHIUM.
    And yes they offer Lithium LIPoly very expensive 1000 dollars and NO we still cannot connect any 36V battery.
    They /EMS/ promised Universal Batt Connector over a year ago and now they say there is no demand.
    BS
    So everybody who wants E+ should call them to tell them -GIVE US Universal Battery Connector.
    I encourage everybody to call their toll free number
    1-877 824 5339 Electric Motion Systems
    Gie us opportunity to power our E+ by batteries of our choice.
    CM


    5
    Last edited by miro13car; 02-23-11 at 07:55 PM.

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    MC.....it's my understanding that the MILLIONS of R&D that went into the original TF hub is superior to the E+ hub, which is why Matra paid for the Patent rights for their bikes & is using it still today.

    Though E+ & Matra went in partners on the Tidalforce M-750 2.0 bike with around 240 make for $4,500 around 2008.

    A shame E+ didn't invest in replacing the NiMH cells with lithium, though they did make it so you could change the cells in packs of 5.

    I'm in four PERFECT TF bikes for around $1,800....so, I'm of the opinion that paying $2,500 range for only one new bike, or $2K for the kit isn't worth it.

    I'd like to find someone that is able to up the volt limit to around 72v on these older TF hubs for "scary" performance. Have you read the article on the tsunami hub on the forum?

    Personally I'd suggest you just buy a NOS "X" hub for your bike & keep your original hub as a backup, or used as evidence for riding a "legal" bike if ever needed. :-))

    I'm reading that E+ is only down to two employees & may be heading for BK because of the down market of people not buying the bikes.

    How about maybe buying a used original TF bike, that's an X bike, but on a different frame for low money & you can still use your same battery setup?

    My goal is to have one of each model, the only one missing is the step-though like yours, but I've located two silver ones that are NOS from an ex-dealer. :-X

    Kit

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    Kit,
    E+ is much improved Tidal Force, at least 10% more efficient it was now confirmed by 2 people.
    EMS changed cover of motor to hide Wavecrest logo, they have no right to use it but for sure they took TF design and improved in the sense that they increased efficiency and reduced weight, introduced new dash interface.
    I am very tempted to buy E+ 1000W only kit and think about adopting it to LiFePo later after 3 years.
    "adopting" would not be easy and it takes sofware EEengineer to trick E+ into thinking it is still connected to original batt electronics. Becasuse it will not power up utill it makes handshake with original NMH electronics
    C,

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    Hey MC.....I'd like to see the "evidence" of this 10% claim, though if you just did the "X" software upgrade by LEVT (Utah-$250 range) to your current TF bike, you will get a whopping 25-50% increase in power & be able to go 25mph instead of just 20, & even get OVER 30 mph (48 km) if you pedal hard. And of course you can still use your lithium battery as your "B" power source.

    Though if your hellbent on a E+, you will have to deal with "their" battery source, which will only increase your costs in the long run of ownership.

    Would you consider a brand new NOS '05 Tidalforce IO step-though cruiser (Silver) with original hub for $1,200 US range that an ex-dealer has? I'll know the "range" on the NiMH hub in a few days, though I suspect it's only around 5 miles in turbo mode going 20mph (32kph). But of course your current battery can be swapped to be use on this bike.

    I'm going to stick with the my four '05 TF bikes & rotate them when I ride, so they in fact will last four times longer than only having one ebike. I also toy with four '00 EVG ebikes too, which are fun for what they are & their low "used" costs. :-)

    I have to admit I'm currently bidding on an auction for a brand new '10 iZip enlighten urban cruiser in the $400 range. These bikes list for $1,800 but are around $895 on ebay. They are pedal assist only & have a 250watt rear hub & a hidden (frame) lithium 24v battery. It would be my riding to the "gym" bike. :-))

    http://brandscycle.com/product/izip-...ened-10495.htm

    Kit

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    Kit,
    I would only consider new or almost new/max 100 miles/ X model ONLY WITH DEAD OR ALMOST DEAD FRONT HUB battery or preferable kit with dead or weak battery.
    Shortly anythung X with no front wheel , why would I pay for shipping useless front hub?
    Simply seller would have to be willing to take front hub off the bike.
    Preferably from Northern USA, shipped only USPS.
    I own silver IO step-trough500W Canadian model.
    Any opportunity you could get X with dead hub batt low millage bike?
    CM

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    CM.....I agree with you. The four TF bikes I'm trying to buy are in Washington State. I'm in contact with a middle man that's working with me. I too am only interested in an "X" hub, but will settle for a bike with very low miles & for the right price.

    I'll give you an update when I know more.

    What is your direct email address?

    Kit

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    Kit
    private message sent.
    check your private messages.
    CM

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    Got it...and yes, I agree. Though I used the term "corrosion" for the cell chemistry after 5 years.

    I'll update you when I know more.

    I'm also trying to buy "complete" NOS & used inventory from a dealer in Texas. I'll have some prices soon, if at all.....as the seller is living in the past & is "proud" of his TF stuff. :-)

    Kit
    kauaikit(at)earthlink(dot)net

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    Hi does any body out there have a tidal force battery charger for sale--thanks--john

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    Tidalforce charger

    Quote Originally Posted by JOHNJOHNAA View Post
    Hi does any body out there have a tidal force battery charger for sale--thanks--john
    Hey John....why not update your riding experience and loose the factory original 8 year old front NiMH battery hub, install a jumper in the dash (B battery) & purchase a lithium battery pack in the 46v range. Hobbyking NanoTech or Zippy's work great. Besides you too will get increased range and top speeds around 32 mph with a X hub TF.

    What version of TF do you have?

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