callagga

Hi,

Has anyone got or tried eleectrics on a racer?

I'm getting the impression that if you're racer for commuting and wanting interested in extending distance for commuting to/from work that it's probably NOT a workable solution?

Tks

Mabman

Huh? It seems like english may not be your first language and your post is kind of fuzzy. Maybe try again?

callagga

So I'm interested in hearing anyone who has put a electrics kit onto a racer? Was it worth it?

(that is, for someone who rides a racer and who goes relatively fast, is putting electrics onto a 12kg racer to aid in getting some extra distance to/from work without getting too exhausted by the end of the week really going to be worth it - in other words would one really end up spending more effort due to the increase in weight)

crackerdog

Most, if not all, of the hub motors are made for cheap low end bikes. They aren't going to fit a good quality bike well. They usually take only freewheels, not cassettes.

Golectric

I would not put electric assit on a racer. They are built light and in most cases are not suited for an easy conversion. A better option would be to get a purpose built electric for the days you don't feel like pedaling

blippo

I tried putting a Wilderness front wheel hub on a Fuji touring bike with 27" wheels. Didn't like it, too unstable

FollowYourHeart

When you add the motor and battery, your road bike won't be a racer anymore, it won't feel light at all.

If you want an electric bike, it is better if you leave your racer alone. Start a new bike! Buy a very cheap and simple bike that has a steel frame and add the electric motor and lithium battery to that.

eBikes are best for being able to commute to places without getting sweaty and needing a change of clothes. Racer road bikes can go much faster than electric bikes usually, BUT THEY GET SWEATY AND EXHAUSTED! Also, when you're going up hills, the guy on the electric bike will probably catch up to you because they maintain a high average speed the entire time while the regular bicyclist slows down tremendously going uphill for a long time.

FollowYourHeart

I have tried a front hub with 700c wheels and when I first rode it, it felt quite unstable too, but it was because my tires were too skinny!!! I had 700 x 23 tires on there. I switched to 700c x 38 size (the widest you can get for 700c, but still much more efficient than any 26" mountain bike tire!!) and the stability returned (along with some comfort!).

LesMcLuffAlot

I installed a BionX PL350 system on a year 2000 Rocky Mountain Vertex T.O. last fall. It is a Easton Ultralight aluminum frame with Shimano XTR components and other assorted top end RaceFace components. In 2000 the MSRP for the bike was $4999.95. The suspension fork eventually needed service and parts and I did not want to put money into the fork since it wasn't my main MTB anymore so I installed a rigid fork. It was a 21 pound MTB before the BionX install.



The sweeter and nicer and lighter the bike before the electric conversion the sweeter and nicer the bike is after.

I say go for it. Hell, mount it on a Cervelo R3 if you have the means. It would be a sweet electric assist machine.

Mabman

Actually the widest tire you can get now for 700c is more like a 55. I ran a Currie rear drive on a 52 WTB Nanoraptor equipped wheel in stock form and it went quite well. The SLA battery was a hindrance though but that was a ways back.

And thanks to you Callaga for clearing that up for me. Actually I find the concept intriguing of having as light an ebike as possible, a racer type as it where, that is structured so that it can be legally compliant world wide via changing the motors to different wattages and adjust the gearing as necessary. The 20 mph/32 km/h is a drawback but could also be of use still? But with the range of wattage going from 250 to 750 there is enough discrepancy that it will not be easy to design something to meet all needs. Time will tell.

cerewa

The usual way of making an e-bike faster is to add a bigger motor, rather than to use a bike made for human powered racing.

If you want to increase efficiency, it helps to use a bike of reasonably good quality, avoid using off-road style treaded tires, and avoid using a bike with suspension. A bike that's designed to be fairly light AND durable (like a mountain bike's frame and wheels) is a good choice. Parts that are intended for aerodynamics can also increase your efficiency/speed at least a tiny bit, like "aero bars" and any kind of durable aerodynamic wheels...

It will not save you time or be "efficient" in any practical way if you pick parts (tires and wheels especially) that aren't reliable given how you use them. One way for e-bikers to avoid flats is to use thicker heavier tires than the average bicyclist...

callagga

thanks for the responses

Actually I'm still not quite sure on this. Perhaps I haven't asked the right question. Can I try to ask again please. Would anyone have a handle for a comparison between the following scenarios:

* Scenario A - Riding 12kg racer to/from work (2 x 18km) [takes me about 1h each way now]
* Scenario B - Riding a 25kg electric bike (not racer) to/from work (2 x 18km = 36km)

Question 1: Which would be least effort? And by how much roughly?
Question 2: What would be time savings for a one way trip for Scenario B? Would there be one?


Thanks. Again just trying to work out whether it's worth spending the money or not...

RustyBarnacle

Well it appears that you are now going about 36Km/hr if it takes you an hour total. If thats the case you could likely lose time if you are going with a store bought solution since they are supposed to cut out at 32 Km/hr which is the legal max in Canada.

If you're a lead foot Larry like myself you can set yourself up to go whatever speed you want. I'm currently rigging up a mountain bike to do 40 Km/hr and be my daily commuter because I'm very large and this particular motor will have the power to overcome several monster hills between me and work.

So, if you're an inshape person you could use the same rig to get to work with 0 effort in 54 minutes, or you could pick a more legal option which would get you to work with minimal effort in 68 minutes.

callagga

woops - I meant 1 hours each way sorry - I'm not that fit

RustyBarnacle

Well then if you get a store bought bike and average close to 30 Km/hr you would close to cut your time in half with a little effort.

callagga

so - I guess you're suggesting it will be worth it for such a distance still

Any advice re Electrics Kit brand to go for? I'm in Australia so we have the 200W limit on bike track. I see a few here:

https://www.evehicle.com.au/EVOConver...tml?openmenu=5

https://www.bicyclestore.com.au/Cyclo...-pr-20747.html

https://www.gwarehouse.com.au/index.p...conversion-kit

RustyBarnacle

I've never ridden on a 200W but I've heard they feel really underpowered. Maybe see if you can borrow one first to see what a difference it makes for you.

callagga

if I was going to ride on road (and remove the 200W restriction) what power level would you recommend for a 2 x 18km ride with a small small hills at places? Is there an optimal point where you trade off power versus weight/how long battery will last?

Would the above answer change if there was an assumption that one charged at work as well as home (i.e. only 18km trips for the battery then, not 36km)

Thanks

cerewa

Depends very much on the battery. If you want to go full throttle as much as possible you should plan on charging the battery at work. If you really want speed, you should consider LiFePO4 batteries (or lithium polymer) but not lead acid.

If you decide to get a crystalyte motor, as far as I know the 4xx series can be run at 1000 watts or more without over-heating, and the 5xxx series can handle at least 2000 watts.

If I'm not mistaken, a Crystalyte 5302 motor at 36volts/1500 watts should be able to get you to about 35 miles per hour, 48 volts might get you 40 miles per hour. (see https://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/ )

EDIT - see https://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/Pro.../bikecalc1.htm for power required to reach a specific speed.

callagga

are "Crystalyte" hub motors a reliable/popular brand to go for?

cerewa

Yes, they're reliable and popular. You can get them at www.ebikes.ca

callagga

oh - now I'm seeing there are some choices:

* geared/gearless - noting I've got a few reasonable hills on the 2 x 18km commute it would seem sites say you need a geared for the hills, HOWEVER then it seems also said that you sacrifice some speed on the flat with a geared

* brushless/brushes - I assume go brushless here (assuming the $ are ok)

* front wheel / back wheel - can I assume this makes no difference? if it's easier to stick it on the front wheel than front wheel would be good no?

* voltage - I'll assume say 36V 20AH(or more) would be ok for my 2 x 18km commute

* which motor - If sticking to just the crystalyte range, then which model crystalyte to go for??? also I can't seem to find a Crystalyte store that shows all the models & specs on a page?

* re battery - I'll assume a NiMH 12AH (or more) would be ok

Question - So in summary any help re (a) geared/gearless, (b) which crystalyte [to limit options] motor model would be good for a 2 x 18km commute (that has some steepish hills in places). Also if I wanted to stick to around 400W re bike track does this change the recommendation for the motor model above?

thanks again

liksmuzic

The town I live in is spread across a steep valley with a river running through it.

I had an old 18 speed Sears Mountain bike that I put the kit on. The kit is a Crystalyte Outrunner Front Wheel kit. With 36 volt 20 amp controller, 3 SLA (36 volt, 12 Ah) batteries with a Soneil Charger and the Chrystalyte Key Switch Bag. The motor is basically a 408 Crystalyte, which is a gearless motor. Total investment for the kit was about $835.00 Cdn, I didn't count the original cost of the bike because I had it so long.

At first I was against the Front wheel motor, but because of wanting to get rolling I got the front wheel one, and am very happy with it. For me it balanced the bike out. The front wheel is about 16 lbs, then mounting the 24 lb SLA batteries on a rear rack, it is very well balanced. The only problem with the front wheel setup, is I get a vibration through the front fork at certain speeds, but above and below those speeds there is not problem , but I will be changing out the fork this year.
Since May 14 2008 to about mid October 2008, I had been commuting to work 5 km each way to work, with a steep hill 5% grade on the return trip. Then once a week, I go up the opposite hill of the valley up a 6.5% grade for 3.5 km to a radio tower I look after, then roll back down into the valley, across the river, then back up the opposite hill to return home. That one-way trip is 11.5 km.

Rolling to work, the battery takes only about 45 minutes to charge, the return home trip, its about 3 hrs to charge. The once a week long trip the battery takes nearly 5 and half hours to charge, but I still have
battery capacity left. I have always wanted to just go for a ride to run the batteries right out, just to see what kind of range I have, but never have done so.

When I hit the smaller hill I have to gear down to the 13th gear, and with me pedalling the the motor doing its thing I get up the hill at about 16 km/hr or 8 miles/hr. The big hill, I go right down to 1st gear, and my first 2 attempts I had to get off the bike and walk beside it, but the last time I tried it I was able to stay on and pedal. It is a joint effort on the hills, but it is way easier. I don't have to bust a gut to get up them, and on the flats I don't have to pedal if I don't feel like it.
If you can find a dealer, try one out and see. Check out the www.ebikes.ca website, or I bought mine from
https://www.itselectric.ca/Products.html.

I can't wait for the snow to go, and the weather to warm up, so I get back out there.

Sorry for the long post.

Good luck, and I hope you find something that suits your needs.

callagga

tks liksmuzic
* do you know what sort of power you're using with this setup?
* it sounds like you're happy with the 408 for the hills then? (i.e. it would be better than the 406 re the hills then?)
* do you have any problem getting to a top speed on the flat that would equal what you would reach on a lighter non-electric bike?

liksmuzic

* do you have any problem getting to a top speed on the flat that would equal what you would reach on a lighter non-electric bike?


One thing to remember, that these are electric- Assist bicycles, which is that this is a joint
effort here. On the flat you can let it do the work, but when you pedal along, I find, I can get
to a cruising speed, and maintain it easier than human power alone, and definatly on the hills,
it is very much a joint effort. The one hill I have to tackle would take me almost 3 weeks in the
spring to get back into condition to get to the top without getting off and walking, and when I could do it , it was always, in the lowest gear on the bike but with the electric assist, I work hard, but never have to get off and walk, and only go down into the 2nd and 3rd lowest gears on the bike. The motor compensates for its weight, the battery weight, (my extra winter weight!) as compared to a lighter non-electric, but it will not do all the work. But it does let you choose how much work you want to do.

* do you know what sort of power you're using with this setup?

I don't really know, I would like to have a cycle analyst from ebikes.ca at this link:
https://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml
but I am guessing averaging only about 6 to 9 amps, as my batteries are rated at 12 amp-hours
and my trips are usually under an hour, with the long trip of the week, being about an hour and quarter,
and I still have battery life, as the low-voltage cutout on the controller is not kicking in.

* it sounds like you're happy with the 408 for the hills then? (i.e. it would be better than the 406 re the hills then?)

According to the very informative article again at ebikes.ca, here:
https://www.ebikes.ca/hubmotors.shtml part of the article here says that
the 408 will draw half the current, but needs higher voltage. I read it as a bit
longer range with 36 volt batteries:

One false and oft-repeated conclusion is that therefor the 409 is a higher torque motor than the 406 because it can produce the same torque with fewer amps, or likewise more torque with the same amps. This is not the case. All 400 series motors can deliver exactly the same torque at exactly the same efficiency. The lower winding count motors just need more current to do this, but because they have fewer turns of a shorter length of heavier gauge wire, they can handle high currents with minimal loss. To use a concrete example, lets compare a 404 with a 408. The 408 has twice the number of turns than the 404, so the copper wire in the windings has 1/2 the cross sectional area and twice the length, for a total of 4 times the winding resistance of the 404. For a given torque output, the 408 needs only 1/2 the amps, but because it has 4 times the resistance the net electrical loss (I2R) is exactly the same.

Another consequence of having a larger number of turns around each stator is that the voltage induced in the winding by the passing magnets is increased in direct proportion to the number of turns. So for instance, at a certain speed of rotation, the 408 motor will produce twice the back-emf voltage as a 404 motor rotating at the same RPM. To power a motor, the battery pack voltage needs to be greater than the back-emf voltage, and so the 408 motor needs twice the voltage to spin at the same speed as a 404. However, it will only draw 1/2 the current, and you can see that the net power input (Volts * Amps) remains the same.


Spend so time going through the entire website, and the extra links at www.ebikes.ca, you will find
a lot of very usefull information.

Good Luck!