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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuser
    Something like this?



    I totally agree. Yamaha pulled it off on their Racer-01. I would like to see that further developped into a full production model we can buy. I'd like to get a close-up view of how that bottom braket V-twin electric motor setup was done. They must be using some type of freewheel crank or something. You can tell from that picture that the crank seems to be some special custom made deal.
    I was thinking that the motor can be completely housed within the bottom bracket so that you can't really tell there's a motor there. Of course, the frame would have to be designed to have a larger BB to hold such motors. I don't see any batteries in the picture above so either they're not there or the can shaped like stuff sticking out of the motor is the battery.

    You can currently install a BB motor using the cyclone-usa kits. These kits attach under and just behind the BB.

    If these BB based motors can be integrated with the frame, that would be something I'd definitely buy.

  2. #27
    Senior Member hockeyteeth's Avatar
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    Just get John Galt to build you a motor which converts static electricity from the air into kinetic energy. You would NEVER have to recharge!

  3. #28
    George Krpan
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    If it's too good to be true....
    There's a lot of doubt out there about EEStor.
    But...quick charge batteries ARE a reality.
    Do some research on Altair Nanotechnologies.
    Supposedly Altair's batteries recharge in less than 10 minutes. And, that's for a car.
    Bicycle batteries would, of course, be much smaller and could possibly recharge in seconds.
    Think about it. You run out of juice and stop at a cafe and recharge before your latte is ready!

  4. #29
    put our Heads Together cerewa's Avatar
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    1 - How to bill people for their electrical usage
    2 - How to get everyone onboard. There would be so much opposition from so many sides simply because they want to maintain their livelyhood. Car mechanics, auto producers, gas companies, service stations and so on.
    As for how to get everyone on board... it would not be easy. IMO the only way to do it would be gradually building political support... rises in gas taxes, etc. Get trackless trolleys (elec-buses) using a system first, and then open it to private vehicles later.

    Overhead wires such as those used by some seattle buses would probably be a lot cheaper to install though. That might make them a lot more likely to get implemented.

    If you understand how electric meter enforcement on houses work, it appears that they might be practical on cars and e-bikes too. Essentially, using electricity without a meter (and without getting electrocuted) requires a lot of work... and doing so without everybody nearby being able to see is much, much more difficult... and if you're caught you've committed a serious crime. All electrified roads would be in plain public view and all vehicles using the power would have a registered meter; meters would be presented for mandatory monthly inspection at the electricity-provider's office (or maybe at your home's regularly scheduled meter-reading). Or something like that. I guess stolen vehicles would operate for free until caught (!) and people might be tempted to claim that their vehicle was stolen. I think installing photographic license plate readers* to help catch anyone trying to use electricity without a paying electric account would solve that problem, though.

    Besides taking away the need to purchase and carry batteries, systems like this (as used today on public transit or as modified for private vehicles) mean that you don't lose energy charging your battery and then again discharging the battery, which collectively avoids a huge amount of energy loss.

    *like the ones used to give speeding tickets in some locations
    Last edited by cerewa; 05-26-07 at 09:02 AM.
    Some awesome folks who are working to give Haitians the ability to manage their safety and their lives:
    Haiti Partners

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluetriforce
    Is this technology here yet or in the next 5-20 years? ...
    No.

    I'm rather disappointed that this forum was titled "Electric Bicycles" and not "Motorized Bicycles". For a lot of the uses that people expect, a gasoline-engined bicycle can meet them WAY better than any electric system out there can, and the gas engine setup is still way more fuel-efficient than any other vehicle on the road.
    ~

  6. #31
    Daily Rider Robert C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150
    No.

    I'm rather disappointed that this forum was titled "Electric Bicycles" and not "Motorized Bicycles". For a lot of the uses that people expect, a gasoline-engined bicycle can meet them WAY better than any electric system out there can, and the gas engine setup is still way more fuel-efficient than any other vehicle on the road.
    ~
    A lot of people, myself included, would like to see a national move from pertrol in any place that it is not essential; and, finding ways to eliminate it where it is. Second, once you put a petrol motor on it you start running into a myriad of legal issues.

    Electricly assisted bikes are not mopeds. However, petrol powered bicycles generally are and as such are, in many ststes, subject to most of the licensing and insurance restrictions as motorcycles, additionally, they are noisy.

    Befort the states, such as California, effectively eliminated mopeds in the 1980s' they were evolving into light motorcycles. In no way, other than having a couple of pedals on the side to rest the riders feet on, did they resemble bicycles more than motorcycles. I had a moped back then and I would like to see then permitted to return in the same way we used them in the 80s'. I used mine as, as did most young people who had them, as a transation vehicle from bicycle riding habits to motorcycle riding habits.

    Having used both, theses are two very differnt vehicles.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert C
    A lot of people, myself included, would like to see a national move from pertrol in any place that it is not essential; and, finding ways to eliminate it where it is. ....
    Yes but at what cost?

    A couple things you should try to come to terms with are that-
    .....electric vehicles are not always more-economical to operate than comparable gasoline-powered vehicles, and that-
    .....it's very debateable if electric vehicles are any kinder to the environment overall.
    ~

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
    How so?
    When most people think of "vehicle pollution" they think of smog, because that's the one type of pollution that they can see with their own eyes--but that ain't hardly the only type there is.

    The main cost and source of pollution of electric vehicles is NOT charging the batteries daily--it is the cost and pollution of producing the batteries, and of disposing of them (or recycling them) when they expire.
    ~

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150
    .....it's very debateable if electric vehicles are any kinder to the environment overall.
    ~
    There's no debate. Electrics are kinder to the environment than gasoline if you consider the whole system from extraction to production to distribution to consumption.

    Once you tally up all the pollution on each level for each, Electricity beats gasoline hands down in regards to environmental friendliness.

    You also have to consider that most people who doubt electrical production's low pollution production will almost always state Coal fired plants as their source for data. Electricity, unlike gasoline, has dozens of different ways of being produced. And many high pollution electrical plants are being shut down and replaced by better systems.

    The biggest thing I love about electrical power is: you have options! You have so many ways of producing electricity, some which can be done at home, that it ensures no corporate monopoly is likely to control the market in the near future. And if one method is deemed too risky or too polluting, it can easily be replaced by another method; unlike gasoline.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuser
    There's no debate. Electrics are kinder to the environment than gasoline if you consider the whole system from extraction to production to distribution to consumption.

    Once you tally up all the pollution on each level for each, Electricity beats gasoline hands down in regards to environmental friendliness....
    So you think that manufacturing and disposing of batteries makes no pollution whatsoever?
    Or are you just saying that "electric vehicles don't make smog"?

    -----

    Functionally, a gas-engined bicycle is the same as an electric-engined bicycle.

    Electric cars have a number of practical limitations, and that's why they don't sell very well (even though you can buy them TODAY)--and in comparisons with petroleum-powered vehicles, electric bicycles suffer the exact same limitations that electric cars do. A fully-charged five-pound battery won't get you anywhere near as far as five pounds of gasoline will--and for a vehicle, that's what matters.
    ~

  11. #36
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    according to a show I recently saw on tv, gasoline powered bicycles often produce more harmful emissions than cars - at least in china, where they are popular. acording to this show there are several hundred thousand in one of the larger cities alone (forget which).

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
    How so?

    CE
    How is the electricity generated in the first place? In most parts of the country it is from coal or oil burning plants. Hydroelectric and nuclear come next. The environmental devastation caused by those is obvious.

    Wind and solar are negligable at present, but they are not without environmental impact. Wind power kills birds. Solar cells are produced by industrial processes that have some fairly nasty by-products.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150
    No.

    I'm rather disappointed that this forum was titled "Electric Bicycles" and not "Motorized Bicycles". For a lot of the uses that people expect, a gasoline-engined bicycle can meet them WAY better than any electric system out there can, and the gas engine setup is still way more fuel-efficient than any other vehicle on the road.
    ~
    If that's what you want, get a motorcycle, moped, or motorscooter. There are some very good models out there. Those technologies have been fairly well developed over the years.

  14. #39
    Daily Rider Robert C's Avatar
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    according to a show I recently saw on tv, gasoline powered bicycles often produce more harmful emissions than cars - at least in china, where they are popular. acording to this show there are several hundred thousand in one of the larger cities alone (forget which).
    Strange, in all of China I have seen ONE petrol powered bicycle. I even took a picture of it. It looked like an early early Davidson (the ones from the 1800's). I havn't even seen many petrol powered mopeds; I have, possibly, seen four or five. I am interested in what city they did this study.

    Most of what is seen here is (of course, bicycles but there are a lot of laws trying to discourage thier use). The next most popular is the electric moped (I do not consider these to be electric bicycles due to weight and thet they are not intended to be pedaled; most people remove the pedals). Then electric scooters. These look like motorscooters but have electric drive, then petrol powered scooters; and finally, motorcycles followed by private cars.

    A lot of the petrol scooters are two stroke, so they do polute a lot. However, even the electric mopeds are exempt from the anti bicycle laws; thus making them very popular.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue
    according to a show I recently saw on tv, gasoline powered bicycles often produce more harmful emissions than cars - at least in china, where they are popular. acording to this show there are several hundred thousand in one of the larger cities alone (forget which).
    The usual example cited for that is total-loss 2-cycle engines--these being the "old-fashioned" type that burn their oil with their fuel, and it is true. Those are already being legislated out of existence in the US: starting in 2006, importation of total-loss 2-cycle engines was banned for some purposes, bicycle engine kits was among them. C.A.R.B. is already requiring catalytic mufflers on small engines, and most other states will likely soon follow.

    The Chinese bicycle engine kits available in the US were all 2-cycles for a long time, but they're switching to 4-cycles now. And if you picked a higher-priced domestic-made kit, they usually have a number of engine choices--some of which are 4-cycles. In my opinioin 4-cycles are more convenient, just because you don't need to mix oil when refueling--but the lower pollution isn't bad either.

    Also quite honestly--comparing a utility engine with NO emissions controls against a modern car isn't exactly fair. In the last 40 years, car emissions have been reduced by something like 98%. People used to commit suicide by breathing car engine exhaust--but on a properly-functioning car now, you basically can't do it. There are reports of people leaving the engine running in a closed garage for several HOURS and still not dying from the exhaust fumes.
    -------
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound
    If that's what you want, get a motorcycle, moped, or motorscooter. There are some very good models out there. Those technologies have been fairly well developed over the years.
    Not the same thing (and people who think ANY motor on a bike is dumb will tell you the same thing about an e-bike):
    --A motorized bicycle can cost way less to operate than those other choices. In some US states, a motorized bicycle (either gas or electric) requires only a valid license, and no insurance or registration. That makes a BIG difference if you're riding to actually save money--$5/month for registration costs and $10/month for insurance means that's $15 of gas you'd have to save over using a car, before you'd actually save any money.
    --Motorized bicycles can easily get 200+ MPG, that is considerably higher than mopeds (150 MPG), and way higher than scooters (75 mpg) and motorcycles (60 mpg).
    --Motorized bicycles are still useful as bicycles when the engines aren't used or won't run; they are true "hybrid" vehicles often with two totally-mechanically-separate means of propulsion. If the engine on your motorcycle or scooter stalls, you're walking home. The pedal systems of mopeds (that have pedals anymore) aren't really intended for doing anything more than clutch-starts; they're geared WAY too low for riding any actual distances.
    --A bicycle motor only adds about 10-12 lbs onto the weight of a normal bicycle, and so motorized bicycles can be transported easily inside of, or on, most cars. You can't do that with a motorcycle or scooter, and most mopeds weigh 100-120+ lbs.

    ....And in case you didn't notice: three of the four points I just made apply to e-bikes too. Almost all of the arguments against gas-engined bicycles can be applied against e-bikes. Politically, there's no reason to split these two types, you're just casting off like-minded supporters for no reason.
    ~
    Last edited by Doug5150; 05-29-07 at 05:46 AM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150
    So you think that manufacturing and disposing of batteries makes no pollution whatsoever?
    There's no debate that the manufacturing and disposal of batteries pollutes less than gasoline production and consumption.

    Besides, the whole battery argument is ridiculous. Cars have batteries too. They have to disposed of as well.

    As well as engine coolant, engine oil, transmission oil and so on.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound
    How is the electricity generated in the first place? In most parts of the country it is from coal or oil burning plants. Hydroelectric and nuclear come next. The environmental devastation caused by those is obvious.

    Wind and solar are negligable at present, but they are not without environmental impact. Wind power kills birds. Solar cells are produced by industrial processes that have some fairly nasty by-products.
    And how is oil pumped out of the ground, transported and refined? When you consider the whole cycle, electricity still wins.

    And as I said before: when electricity you have more options. You can phase out coal plants fairly easily and replace them with other better methods. With oil, you have little options. Either you pump it out of the ground or you grow the alternatives.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuser
    There's no debate that the manufacturing and disposal of batteries pollutes less than gasoline production and consumption.
    -No, not really.
    Gasoline production doesn't produce much pollution, aside from the occasional oil spill. All of the products that are derived from petroleum generally get used--nothing gets thrown away. And most of the pollution from burning petroleum fuels occurs at the end-use point, as smog.

    Batteries don't produce much pollution in use--their pollution occurs when they are manufactured, and then at the end of life when they are disposed of or recycled. I'm not sure if any batteries are economical to recycle yet; lead-acids might be. The others I dunno, a large percentage of them might be ending up in a regular trash dump somewhere {-this is the dirty secret of many municipal recycling programs already in place.....**.

    ....Besides, the whole battery argument is ridiculous. Cars have batteries too. They have to disposed of as well.
    -Yes, but a petroleum-engined car has one ~50-lb battery. An electric car would probably have at least 3000-4000 lbs of batteries, that's 60 to 80 times as much.

    ...As well as engine coolant, engine oil, transmission oil and so on.
    -The engine coolant is supposed to be moving to a biodegradable type, at least in the US.
    As for the old oil and other fluids, they can be burned as fuels in various other uses.
    ~

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuser
    ...And as I said before: when electricity you have more options. You can phase out coal plants fairly easily and replace them with other better methods. With oil, you have little options. Either you pump it out of the ground or you grow the alternatives.
    So then, how mych energy use do you think is coal and oil?.....

    US energy production, from this page:
    http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electri...p/ipp_sum.html
    ...Based on primary energy source, coal-fired capacity represented 43 percent (260,990 megawatts) of the Nation's existing capacity (Figure 1). Gas-fired capacity accounted for 19 percent (117,845 megawatts); nuclear, 14 percent (86,163 megawatts); renewable energy sources, 12 percent (74,575 megawatts); petroleum, 7 percent (41,017 megawatts); and pumped storage hydroelectric, 3 percent (18,020 megawatts)...
    Note that 69% is petroleum or coal sources....

    How about Canada?....
    http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Canada/Background.html
    ...In 2004, the largest source of energy consumption in Canada was oil (33 percent), closely followed by natural gas (25 percent) and hydroelectricity (25 percent). Both coal (9 percent) and nuclear (7 percent) constitute a small share of the country’s overall energy mix. Over 1984-2004, the share of oil in total energy consumption has remained mostly constant, whereas natural gas has increased from 21 percent to 25 percent: most of the increase in natural gas consumption has come at the expense of coal, whose share of total energy consumption fell from 12 percent to 9 percent over that time period...
    Up north, 67% of energy use is either petroleum or coal sources....
    ~

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150
    -No, not really.
    Gasoline production doesn't produce much pollution, aside from the occasional oil spill. All of the products that are derived from petroleum generally get used--nothing gets thrown away. And most of the pollution from burning petroleum fuels occurs at the end-use point, as smog.
    ~
    Please tell me what brand of crack you're smoking, I want to join in on the fun too.

    Pumping oil uses oil.
    Refining gasoline uses electricity.
    Transporting gasoline uses oil. Tanker ships and tanker trucks aren't electric you know.
    Pumping gasoline into your car uses electricity.

    Making and getting gasoline to the consumer pollutes a hell of a lot more than electricity.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150
    In 2004, the largest source of energy consumption in Canada was oil (33 percent), closely followed by natural gas (25 percent) and hydroelectricity (25 percent). Both coal (9 percent) and nuclear (7 percent) constitute a small share of the country’s overall energy mix.
    ~
    So what you're saying is that oil only accounts for 1/3 or the energy used to produce electricity.

    You know... you're kind backing my whole "with electricity you have options" argument. Thank you!

  22. #47
    ǝıd ǝʌol ʎllɐǝɹ I JeanCoutu's Avatar
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    Couple things:


    When a law talks about "motorized bicycle", they're almost universally talking about a moped.

    A bike with a gasoline assist is not recognized as an electric assist bike, and is not legal as such. Pretty much the only place you can get away with riding one of these is in some of the places where mopeds or less do not require registration.

    Electric bikes are mostly limited to ~25-32km/h depending where you live, while mopeds go ~45-50km/h. For a given bike, going 45-50km/h means ~3X the power requirement then to hold 32km/h. At 32km/h, the rider's input makes a very significant difference on the power consumption, to the point where you can outrun the motor between lights. At 45-50, the rider becomes barely more then symbolic (unless you're called Lance Armstrong, back when you were running the TDF anyways).

    Not everyone who rides a bike cares about the environment. I for one really don't care, the reason I ride bikes is because I prefer to ride bikes rather then anything else, so be it. If it ain't good enough for you, bite me. Last I checked, lead acid batteries were the most recycled product in existence (over 98% of them). Besides, I've seen it argued, with prett convincing arguments, that riding an electric bike is less harmful for the environment then riding a conventional bike, once you take into account a human's horrendous 25% eff. and compounded with the massive amount of petrol required to generate and transport food and petrol... It would seem that even riding in a car may be preferable then riding a bike... The immediately obvious pollution ain't all there is to it... But for myself, currently riding any bike I can get my hands on, and excluding what it costs to make a bike and tires and food and stuff, I know I must put at least a quart of oil per year straight into nature just oiling chains and stuff.

    As far as electric assist bikes being functionally equivalent to gas versions, I have to disagree! Gas versions are really crude, while electrics are smooth and nearly seamless. Mostly, electrics are no louder then a conventional bike. By far and large the most common type, at least in my area, is gearless brushless hub motors. They have a very soft buzz when you run them off the ground at low speed, at high speeds the wind noise covers it, and when running such a bike on slicks, the tire noise is louder. Geared or chain driven ebikes have a distinctive whine to them, it's comparable or a bit louder then a freewheel, but even then in a city this noise is generally swamped out by the environment. By comparison, gasoline assists are obnoxiously loud... And smelly! You don't want to be following one... Fortunately, in my area the police have been taking these off the roads. And as for no reason to separate them from ebikes, hell can you imagine these things buzzing around your hood at 3 am? I shure as hell don't want that. I'd trade 100 ebikes for 1 gas bike...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeanCoutu
    ....When a law talks about "motorized bicycle", they're almost universally talking about a moped....
    I don't know where you live--but in the US, there is no standard definition or terminology for motorized bicycles on the state level. In the state where I live, a bicycle with a any kind of engine cannot be registered as a motor vehicle at all. There are a few restrictions on using motorized bicycles (16 yrs or older, valid license of any type, 2HP or less, ect) but nothing that I can't live with.

    ...Last I checked, lead acid batteries were the most recycled product in existence (over 98% of them). ...
    Yes but (in the US) I don't know if this this is only because most states have mandated it. If it had been all that profitable in the first place, mandating it would never have been necessary. Are lead batteries recycled in third-world countries that don't have laws requiring it? ....There has been a free market in recycling aluminum for many years now in the US--and the reason is that it's profitable to do so. Aluminum's unique properties are that it's expensive to make initially but fairly inexpensive to recycle--and it's lightweight, so it's relatively cheap to transport (as opposed to lead).

    By comparison, gasoline assists are obnoxiously loud... And smelly! You don't want to be following one... ... can you imagine these things buzzing around your hood at 3 am? I shure as hell don't want that. I'd trade 100 ebikes for 1 gas bike...
    As for the noise--that's just a matter of the MUFFLER fitted. Honda Gold Wing motorcycles and Silver Wing scooters are very quiet, and they aren't electric, they just have good mufflers. Most gas-powered bike kits now use small utility engines that favored compactness over low noise output. It's simply not a major problem.

    As for the smell, dunno what you're speaking of there.
    The 4-cycles don't put put any visible smoke at all, and I don't notice any particular smell... but I could see how you wouldn't want to be in bed at 3:00 AM and have to smell motorized bicycles driving by outside.....
    ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by workingbike
    Did you mean without changing the battery one time?
    Possibly, there is a company down in Texas that has said they will ship this year, an ultracapacitor that will have 2.8-3 x the power density of NiMH at HALF the cost of lead acid and millions of charge cycles. The first units are going to ZENN cars in Toronto who say they will be shipping the cars next year. Claims include working down to-20C, scalable from pacemakers to trucks and protection against catastrophic shorting.
    I have to say I have some skepticism, but if they do it, it changes everything.
    Look for eestor on google.

    there is some interesting discussion, and a lot of skepticism, in the comments section of this page:
    http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_arch...9/1715549.html

    another ultracapacitor possibility:
    http://lees.mit.edu/lees/posters/RU13_signorelli.pdf
    http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/16-04-07

    I wonder what they think of eestor's claims

  25. #50
    e-Biker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150
    As for the noise--that's just a matter of the MUFFLER fitted. Honda Gold Wing motorcycles and Silver Wing scooters are very quiet, and they aren't electric, they just have good mufflers. Most gas-powered bike kits now use small utility engines that favored compactness over low noise output. It's simply not a major problem.
    They're not as quiet as electric bikes are. Honda Gold wings may be "quieter" than other bikes but they sure ain't quiet. I can defintely hear them taking off from a street corner on a green light.

    You likely won't hear my eBike under full assist unless you sitting on the seat. And all I hear is a little whine from the motor that quickly gets burried by the road noise of my tires and the wind running across my ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug5150
    As for the smell, dunno what you're speaking of there.
    The 4-cycles don't put put any visible smoke at all, and I don't notice any particular smell... but I could see how you wouldn't want to be in bed at 3:00 AM and have to smell motorized bicycles driving by outside.....
    ~
    Maybe you've been sniffing exhaust fumes too long. I can smell exhaust fumes coming from cars, I have no reason to believe I can't smell the exhaust coming from a small 4 stroke engine as well.

    They don't smell as bad as 2 strokes for sure, but they still smell.

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