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Finally, demand for quality standards

Old 01-11-24, 04:28 PM
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Finally, demand for quality standards

After too many fatal fires caused by crappy Li-ion batteries, NYC mandated UL (underwriters lab) certified batteries in E-bikes (and scooters, etc) sold in NYC. Now New York state is considering a similar rule.

I don't know if the UL has established standards yet, or whether the rules will allow other standards (ie. ANSI, or DIN), nor do I know how this will be enforced in an internet market, but it's a start.

Hopefully, it will be possible to establish and enforce reasonable quality standards, and encourage OEMs to care about what batteries they purchase and fit into their vehicles. Failing that, and with continued use of poor quality unsafe batteries, we can expect E-bikes to be stigmatized and face fire safe restrictions in cities or by apartment complex managers. That would mean overnight parking on the street, which we already know won''t fly.
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Old 01-11-24, 04:33 PM
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This could very well be the start of the end of the Wild West for e-bikes.
Does this rule apply to those units already in stock at shops, I wonder? If so, watch for "fire sales" (pun intended) online.
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Old 01-11-24, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul
This could very well be the start of the end of the Wild West for e-bikes.
Does this rule apply to those units already in stock at shops, I wonder? If so, watch for "fire sales" (pun intended) online.
I don 't live in NYC, so not sure of the specifics, including effective dates, and phase in for existing stock. I also don't know if they establish civil liability for end users who's illegal bikes cause fires. Realistically, we won't see meaningful change until enough countries mandate certification standards such that the market for sub-quality batteries disappears entirely.

So, as you say, we're only at the very beginning of the end, which is not in sight yet.
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Old 01-11-24, 05:22 PM
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I live and work in NYY metro.
Majority of buildings in NYC 5 boro have electric wiring that are nearly 100 y-o.
Combined with modern electric appliances (instead of gas stove, heater or dryer) that demand more electrical load on the 100 y-o wiring.
I doubt these batter fires are to blame for actual cause of these fires in NYC.
You are far more likely to get hit or killed by cars on ebike than your e-bike battery catch on fire.
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Old 01-11-24, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
.....
I doubt these batter fires are to blame for actual cause of these fires in NYC.....
You'll need to take that up with the Fire Marshall, who is charged with identifying fire causes.

FWIW- it's fairly easy to identify the cause of electrical fires in wiring within walls, as opposed to those which start in living/working spaces. So, count me among who don't challenge those findings.

In any case, I'm not arguing for or against electric bikes, I arguing about the importation of hazardous, low quality batteries, which are proven causes of fire deaths.

The reason that finding a way to eliminate those defective batteries is important is that failing to do so can end up stigmatizing the entire category. At the same time, concern over civil liability will create a Gresham's Law effect, whereby better players pull back leaving the market to the worst players.
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Old 01-11-24, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Majority of buildings in NYC 5 boro have electric wiring that are nearly 100 y-o.
Total 100% BS. Anyone who owns a building, home or a public business here you would know this. Anyone that has bought or sold a building in the city would know this.

The appliance that forced wiring upgrades was the air conditioner, and that was in the 70s.

Stuy Town might not have upgraded till the 80s, and it was all window fans till then.

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Old 01-11-24, 07:45 PM
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Yeah and how many fire reports by the fire Marshall have you read that specify the cause of these fires as ebike battery specifically?
or just going by what’s reported in the news?

I have talked to firemen at the scene of the fire.in Chinatown, I asked them what they think the cause of the fire might be.
Answer I got was old wiring in the building.

Originally Posted by BTinNYC
Total 100% BS. Anyone who owns a building, home or a public business here you would know this. Anyone that has bought or sold a building in the city would know this.

The appliance that forced wiring upgrades was the air conditioner, and that was in the 70s.

Stuy Town might not have upgraded till the 80s, and it was all window fans till then.
How many buildings in the 5 boro that have not been sold for 50+ years and never been upgraded?
Have you lived in the hood in Brooklyn or Spanish Harlem and seen the conditions of those old buildings?

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Old 01-11-24, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Yeah and how many fire reports by the fire Marshall have you read that specify the cause of these fires as ebike battery specifically?
or just going by what’s reported in the news?
Based on this and your earlier post, I wonder if your arguments are based on zero sum thinking. Meaning the assumption that any battery standards would imply reduced use of E-bikes.

In fact, this is not a zero sum situation, and if it were,.the exact opposite would be true.

The PROVEN, and indesputable fire risks of Li-ion batteries is the biggest threat to E-bikes. Failure to address it will result in restrictions on indoor storage, especially in residential buildings, leaving E-bike owners out in the cold (both literally and figuratively).

Note, both the existing NYC law and proposed state law DO NOT ban bringing E-bikes indoors. They, simply require the same sort of UL certification as is currently applied to just about every electrical panel and appliance sold in the USA. IMO, it's hard to understand how anyone could rationally object.

As it stands now, nobody has any basis to know what they're bringing home when they buy an E-bike. With batteries representing a major cost, we have no idea if that maker opted to rank price over quality when buying batteries. In fact, we have no idea about their honesty in watt-hour ratings.
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Old 01-11-24, 08:38 PM
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Consider how many bicycle accidents & casualties there are vs ebike battery fires & casualties, which do.you think is greater.problem in NYC?

Can you provided any actual.data to support the "PROVEN" risk in ebike battery specifically?

I don't mind being wrong about something, but assuming that you know me from forum posts is just uncalled for.
​​​​​​Maybe if you want to share your thoughts over a joint at my local bodega, so we get to know each other better to discuss this further?

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Old 01-11-24, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Consider how many bicycle accidents & casualties there are vs ebike battery fires & casualties, which do.you think is greater.problem in NYC?

Can you provided any actual.data to support the "PROVEN" risk in ebike battery specifically?
This is not a zero sum issue. It's not either/or bike accidents vs. battery fires. We can and should n address both separately, with policies appropriate to meet both goals.

As for battery fire evidence, why would I bother trying to prove anything to you. You have eyes, and are able to read. Feel free to do a search re: Li-ion battery fires. and believe what you will. But note, NOBODY disputes Li-ion fire risk.
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Old 01-11-24, 09:19 PM
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I have no bone in this squabble at all. No E-bike, no large batteries ... But it isn't hard for me to imagine city councilors deciding to rule bring E-bikes indoors illegal everywhere so as not to risk fires and deaths in those old buildings that haven't been brought up to code. Both their fire departments and landlords would be fans of that decision. Very likely, few E-bike owners would even be at the city council meetings to raise their voice. And as tenants or just one voice in a condo, they wouldn't be heard.

One newsworthy E-bike started fire with a few deaths could start a large wave of prohibiting those bikes indoors. It isn't about how many or few of these fires we see. It is about about the publicity. Starting UL approved batteries now could make a big difference. NYC then California? That could be a good start.
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Old 01-11-24, 09:52 PM
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Whatever you say.. still fail to provide evidence to support your claims and fail to answer any of my previous questions.
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Old 01-11-24, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Whatever you say.. still fail to provide evidence to support your claims and fail to answer any of my previous questions.
Let's be clear, I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. In any case, some of the more serious NYC fires have had plenty of press coverage, but of course, you figure there's some kind of agenda.

We disagree and I'm fine with that. I invite everyone here to read this entire thread, do some research on their own, then draw their own conclusions.
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Old 01-11-24, 10:14 PM
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The problem cat is you really love all of the random stuff from overseas in the e-moped and sometimes e-bike world where UL or other standards aren't a concern so of course you don't want to realize the risks of Li-On batteries. The industry does that is why we have Call2Recycle who sells kits to ship back dangerous batteries and also has kits for Li-On fires. Plus there are shipping restrictions on batteries and labeling on e-bike boxes. It is not nothing.

Having a UL listing is not a bad thing and if it stops some crap from coming in the country so be it but I think the popularity of e-bikes is not really waning so I don't think having something that is tested and shown to be safer by a known organization who has been doing this for over 130 years is going to deter people. Yes we know that old buildings can have faulty wiring that is known and clear but so is the rise of Li-On fires and the prevalence of them. We had a smoking battery from one of those online e-mopeds that was not UL listed smoking in the shop luckily we had the C2R drums and immediately put it in there and called the customer and let them know but where there is smoke there is fire.

Would rather focus on safety rather than losing out on a few riders. Probably those riders are going for a moped anyway and really have no interest in it beyond seeing an initially low price and ending the search there.
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Old 01-12-24, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
.....I don't mind being wrong about something, but assuming that you know me from forum posts is just uncalled for.
​​​​​.....
For what it's worth, I never assumed I knew you or anything about you

This is what I said, "Based on this and your earlier post, I wonder if your arguments are based on zero sum thinking".

That was because you kept bring up riding fatalities, as if that were somehow a tradeoff for trying to prevent fires.

As for getting to know each other, I don't consider a bodega conducive to good conversation. Maybe between sets at a jazz club that mixes a good martini.

Sammy Miller's at Dizzy's in two weeks, or maybe something farther out.
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Old 01-12-24, 02:43 AM
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Perfectly timed news story.
From London
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Old 01-12-24, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Failing that, and with continued use of poor quality unsafe batteries, we can expect E-bikes to be stigmatized and face fire safe restrictions in cities or by apartment complex managers. That would mean overnight parking on the street, which we already know won''t fly.
Here in Australia we have seen in the last couple of days a raising of the issue with regards to apartment buildings and a move to change strata rules (building rules). See the ABC Australia article for some details.
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Old 01-12-24, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
For what it's worth, I never assumed I knew you or anything about you

This is what I said, "Based on this and your earlier post, I wonder if your arguments are based on zero sum thinking".

That was because you kept bring up riding fatalities, as if that were somehow a tradeoff for trying to prevent fires.
Fatalities & injuries are the driving cause for battery related regulations.
If people pay as much attention to vehicle/bicycle accidents, there would be much strict regulation to regulate drivers & cyclists.
Preventing fire isn't much of a problem if folks are educated of the danger.
Regulations without education is just another method of punishing the poor (majority) with fines without education of the danger.
What happens when folk can't afford to pay the fine? they are reduced to criminals and thugs in the city.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
As for getting to know each other, I don't consider a bodega conducive to good conversation. Maybe between sets at a jazz club that mixes a good martini.

Sammy Miller's at Dizzy's in two weeks, or maybe something farther out.
From these sentences, I wonder if your exposure to real majority of NYC is valid.
Bodega are not good enough for you? maybe you don't know how to relate to majority of NY'ers.

Back to my original questions that you've fail to answer:
how many fire reports by the fire Marshall have you read that specify the cause of these fires as ebike battery specifically?
or just going by what’s reported in the news?

Originally Posted by FBinNY
Perfectly timed news story.
From London
BTW, article is to promote folks to sign petition, not presenting pro & cons of proposed regulations nor educate people on the methods to avoid danger. To me, that's an opinion piece.

Originally Posted by veganbikes
The problem cat is you really love all of the random stuff from overseas in the e-moped and sometimes e-bike world where UL or other standards aren't a concern so of course you don't want to realize the risks of Li-On batteries..
Problem is NYC regulation, not overseas, not about what I love or not.
Maybe if you are able to leave personal issues aside, stay on topic in the discussion, you would be able to present some valid input.

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Old 01-12-24, 01:37 PM
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We need this regulation, and I'm concerned we passed it too late. (I live in NYC.) NYC is a place that seems very hard to enforce many laws. So many laws are routinely flouted. The regulation, if we (collectively) heed it, will save lives. It will also cost money. The many deliveristas we have, delivering food and other things, are at the bottom of the economic ranks. I just learned that some of them don't even own their e-bikes; they rent them daily. Do the rental companies care about safety? I'm sure they care about money. Complying with safety costs businesses money, so there is an incentive NOT to buy safe equipment.

I hope we figure out how to do this. I live in a 12-unit coop, so it's tight-knit. One board member proposed that we set up rules for e-bike charging, and no one owns an e-bike yet. He has the right idea, but I don't know what I would propose. A concrete room with alarms? I might want to own an e-bike in the foreseeable future.
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Old 01-12-24, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
We need this regulation, and I'm concerned we passed it too late.
Late, yes.
But not too late.

Proper standards/regulations/enforcement are required and will take about 3-5 years after implementing to take full effect.
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Old 01-12-24, 05:13 PM
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“BTW, article is to promote folks to sign petition, not presenting pro & cons of proposed regulations nor educate people on the methods to avoid danger. To me, that's an opinion piece.

No one in the UK would consider “not being allowed to buy cheap unsafe batteries” as a con. We do have a fair number of DIY ebikes around but we also don’t like fire hazards, especially after Grenfell. We also had an https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67877365]entire airport carpark burn down thanks to what is widely suspected was a Hybrid car battery fire (the authorities and press were very quick to point out it was a diesel but the video shows a fire started remarkably close to where the PHEV version of the car has its drive battery - and I say this as a 10 year EV driver)
Now that battery was far from cheap but the story has people hyper-aware of the risks of Lithium fires. As did Richard Hammond’s Rimac crash.

@veganbikes - did you know you keep writing Li-Ion as Li-On :-)
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Old 01-12-24, 05:31 PM
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What some people are missing is that this thread IS NOT about Li-ion batteries, per se.

These have proven themselves to be very reasonably safe --- if manufactured and used properly.

It's about trying to reduce hazards caused by poor quality batteries, and/or improperly matched chargers.

Just about every electrical device in the USA, from building wiring and panels, down to handheld electronics conforms to UL, CE, ANSI, or other standards to ensure fire and shock safety.

It borders on the incomprensible that the sizable batteries in E-bikes have fallen through the cracks, and been left there so long.

The point is that it's very possible to build and charge Li-ion batteries safely, but we have not chosen (so far) to deal with those suppliers who simply don't bother having any quality standards.

IMO, while state and local regulations are a start, we need to adopt national standards and block shoddy E-bike electricals at the POE, the same way we do other hazardous items.
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Old 01-12-24, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul
This could very well be the start of the end of the Wild West for e-bikes...
Yep... It's been coming. Soon there will be sets of rules for use similar to Motorcycles. Then State Inspections and Licensing. And don't forget insurance companies will be sure to get in on the act with Mandated Liability Insurance. All in the name of your safety.

I don't laugh...

I worry that soon my riding lawn mower will be on the list... And I live in Texas!

As to the OP: It appears that there are many dangerous batteries out there and not just the lithium ion type. Well that sounds like an engineering problem that will turn into a Litigation Liability problem... Go Figure
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Last edited by zandoval; 01-12-24 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 01-12-24, 06:32 PM
  #24  
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This has to be national policy, only way to really deal with this is to keep the crap out of the country.
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Old 01-12-24, 06:58 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Fatalities & injuries are the driving cause for battery related regulations.
If people pay as much attention to vehicle/bicycle accidents, there would be much strict regulation to regulate drivers & cyclists.
Preventing fire isn't much of a problem if folks are educated of the danger.
Regulations without education is just another method of punishing the poor (majority) with fines without education of the danger.
What happens when folk can't afford to pay the fine? they are reduced to criminals and thugs in the city.



From these sentences, I wonder if your exposure to real majority of NYC is valid.
Bodega are not good enough for you? maybe you don't know how to relate to majority of NY'ers.

Back to my original questions that you've fail to answer:
how many fire reports by the fire Marshall have you read that specify the cause of these fires as ebike battery specifically?
or just going by what’s reported in the news?



BTW, article is to promote folks to sign petition, not presenting pro & cons of proposed regulations nor educate people on the methods to avoid danger. To me, that's an opinion piece.



Problem is NYC regulation, not overseas, not about what I love or not.
Maybe if you are able to leave personal issues aside, stay on topic in the discussion, you would be able to present some valid input.
Personal issues, no personal issues presented here. You like e-mopeds do you not? They don't care about UL listings. Even if I really don't care for non-UL listed e-mopeds there is nothing invalid about my input. All batteries should be listed by UL or some similar safety organization or regulatory body that deals with this. Also overseas is a big problem, if they are creating stuff that is not regulated and rated and built with safety in mind it is a HUGE problem. I am sorry you don't care about that but it is an important issue it should not just be left to NYC to regulate it should be on the manufacturers.

Also it should not be left unregulated either. Safety should never take a backseat especially in this case. I get that you are opposed in some form or another or just don't think it is a problem but in the end poorly built batteries and chargers are a problem.
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