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Old 03-06-11, 01:00 AM   #1
Witt78
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Question E-Bike Tires on a higher amp setup.

Long story short. I'm building a new E-Bike. I'm using a 5303 Crystalyte and a 35 Amp controller.

I have a Mongoose Downhill MTB that is going to work great, but it came with trail tires with extremely aggressive tread on them. I'm going to replace them, and I was thinking about going over-board with the replacement.

http://www.biketiresdirect.com/produ...-advanced-tire

I want your 2 cents. Do you think these would hold up on a heavier E-Bike? I can't see how they would corner well, at speed.
---------------------
I figure... I'm going to be on pavement 95% of the time. When I'm off pavement, simply due to the weight of the bike, I'll be going slow anyway...
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Old 03-06-11, 07:41 AM   #2
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Here is the most talked about tire on another ebike forum. Just about 180 degrees away from what you're interested in. They might have hardtails and want more cushion though.

http://www.biketiresdirect.com/produ...-inch?ss=13590
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Old 03-06-11, 09:24 AM   #3
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Witt.....Just my 2 cents worth. Personally I would not recommend the tire you are considering. If I am seeing it correctly it's a 1.1" tire which is very slim and maybe great for racing but really not for a heavy ebike. Like you I thought I would be smart by mounting thin tires on my first ebike and then trasfered them (because I had them) onto my second ebike. What a mistake. Yes, they are likely more eff and allow slightly higher speeds. But I ride mostly on forest preserve bike trails that are a combo of paved and or cinder stone. What I found was the bikes were very slippery with these small tires even though they ahd a fairly good thread on them. But with a fater tire I was fine. So I am now considering something more like what jet is recommending (Big Apples). The thing to be careful with is tire to rim matching. Not ever tire is good for every rim. So be sure to confirm your rim for the tire you are ordering.

I know your planning on mostly pavement riding but I still would not recommend those tires.

Bob
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Old 03-06-11, 11:57 AM   #4
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Ahh! hehe I had not even gotten as far as taking measurements. You're right. My bikes stock tires are 26 X 2.35. I really like the Michelin's but I'd have to have a wider set of them.

I feel sort of silly now. I don't know too much about bike tires. Let me ask you. What exactly do the measurements mean? I know the "26" in 26 X 2.35 means the diameter of the tire. 26 inches. 2.35 is the width, but the width of what? The bead? Or the tire at it's widest point?

How forgiving are these measurements? For example. My stock tires are 26x2.35, so would these tires fit?

http://www.biketiresdirect.com/produ...orm-26x25-tire

If not... What's my problem? is the bead too wide for my rim? Or is the tire going to rub my frame?
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Old 03-06-11, 12:00 PM   #5
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Is there any particular site which you guys occasionally order tires from? That vendor I was browsing was simply the first hit I got on Google. I know nothing else of them.
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Old 03-06-11, 12:26 PM   #6
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The more I look around, the more I like those "Big Apples"
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Old 03-06-11, 01:49 PM   #7
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The more I look around, the more I like those "Big Apples"
Yes, me too. They are also quite a bit lighter than the hookworms, even in their wire bead format. My own experience on an unpowered bike tells me they have fairly good puncture resistance as well. Definitely wouldn't go with a super narrow tire as in your original post, you would have to keep the pressure pretty damn high to avoid pinch flats.
the second number on the tires refers to width, and gives you the "nominal" width of the tire when inflated. It can vary between manufacturer, and differing rim widths changes it as well. you should, IMO, be looking for something around 2". Big Apples are nice, but given that you have full suspension ( yes? ) I would perhaps look at one of the Schwalbe Marathons, which one depends on how much speed or puncture resistance matters to you. Important thing to note is there is another type of 26" tire out there, not very common, but make sure whichever one you buy is listed as an ETRO size of 559mm, at whatever width.

Last edited by coldfeet; 03-06-11 at 01:50 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-06-11, 01:51 PM   #8
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The tire width is somewhat misleading. It's supposed to mean what the width of the tire would be if it was perfectly round on the top. At one point when the save every gram marketing hit. Manufactures of tires where measuring their tires on wder rims that made the tire wider. They would claim that "their" 25 mm tire was lighter than the competions 25 mm tire. What they were doing was putting a 23 mm tire on a wider rim to make it 25 mm. It's been said that sanity has returned to tire marketing so with reputable tire manufactures you're comparing small apples to big apples.
If you're following me you see the absolute width of the tire depends on the rim width.

I did notice that BikeTiresDirect was out of stock of Big Apples. Jenson has them though and are a little cheaper but i didn't look to see if there was a difference in shipping.
my Kenda 1.95 are new so it'll be a while before I'm shopping unless I need a spare. Keep us informed as to your selection.

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Old 03-06-11, 06:50 PM   #9
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Here's Sheldon Brown's take on rim/tire sizing. When/if you figure it out please explain it to me.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rim-sizing.html

Here's Schwalbe offical site with there recommendations. Looks like the same deal.

http://www.schwalbe.com/gbl/en/techn...nPoint=Technik

Bob

Last edited by dumbass; 03-06-11 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 03-06-11, 08:31 PM   #10
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For 26" Tires if the size is 2.250" then it's a 559 mm bead diameter. The tire's bead fits down into the rim at this diameter. If the tire says 2 1/4" it's something else and you don't want it on any modern bike except maybe an oddball schwinn. As far as tire width it just says not to put a narrow tire on a wide rim or vice versa.
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Old 03-06-11, 09:44 PM   #11
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Those are pretty skinny tires!

For effective braking performance at the speeds you`ll be travelling and with the extra weight of a battery and motor you should be looking at 26 x 1.75 tires minimum.

Both Schwalbe and Kenda make ebike ready tires. You might want to look up some reputable companies that are marketing complete bikes, not kits, and have a look at what they`re putting on their bikes.
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Old 03-06-11, 11:05 PM   #12
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I started off with the Michelin City 26 x 1.85 tires and even they were too small for an e-bike. It's a great tire for a lighter bicycle but I had to pump them up hard to carry the weight and that really jarred the equipment on the smallest of bumps. I'm now on Big Apples and that made all the difference although there are other balloon type tires too (hook worms, etc).
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Old 03-06-11, 11:37 PM   #13
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For effective braking performance at the speeds you`ll be travelling and with the extra weight of a battery and motor you should be looking at 26 x 1.75 tires minimum
How much extra weight are you talking? If it's 50 lbs more ... that's the difference between a 150 lb and a 200 lb rider.

My road bike (non electric, about 20 lbs) was perfectly happy with 700x23 tires and me, a 200 lb rider ... (though I do like the 28mm tires I have on it now better.)

If you want fat tires, get them for all the reasons people get fat tires for -- but unless your electric bike is like 100 lbs, I don't think there's any need to get fat tires just because of that.

Quote:
Both Schwalbe and Kenda make ebike ready tires. You might want to look up some reputable companies that are marketing complete bikes, not kits, and have a look at what they`re putting on their bikes.
Probably good advice.
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Old 03-07-11, 07:31 AM   #14
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How much extra weight are you talking? If it's 50 lbs more ... that's the difference between a 150 lb and a 200 lb rider.

My road bike (non electric, about 20 lbs) was perfectly happy with 700x23 tires and me, a 200 lb rider ... (though I do like the 28mm tires I have on it now better.)

If you want fat tires, get them for all the reasons people get fat tires for -- but unless your electric bike is like 100 lbs, I don't think there's any need to get fat tires just because of that.

Probably good advice.
While my bike may not be the norm yes it is just under the 100 lbs mark with twin motors and battery packs. Then add my 220 lbs and whatta have? O'yeah, I'm planning on draggin a doggy trailer behind me this year. It weighs 35 lbs and my doggy weighs another 35 lbs. Of course not all of the 70 lbs will be on the bike but 30% to 40% will be. And like most of the other weight it will be on the rear tire.

Also keep in mind there is a difference between "live weight" (you) and "dead weight" (equipment). Your live weight can shift and rise to help absorb bumps but dead weight can't. Small tires suck on ebikes I know I tried them (have them now and plan to change soon).

Bob
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Old 03-07-11, 11:40 AM   #15
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As usual, you peeps are a great resource for me while I build this new bike.

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Originally Posted by jethro56 View Post
Keep us informed as to your selection.
I will. I have plenty of time to mull this one over, as I do not have my 5303 motor yet. I'll be ordering that in about a week.

So far, I like those big apples. They look tough, and fast. I also like the hookworms, they look like they would get incredible traction. However, I'm not sure they would fit on my frame. I have 2.35" wide tires on there now and they are a tight fit. It would be close.

Tires are important. They are the only thing on the bike that meets the ground. Two little spots on the ground, each the size of an iPod nano. That's all the contact and control you get.

Speaking of iPods, I'll grab my iPod and make a short video real fast. Let's see if you think these 2.5" wide Hookworms will fit. =P

Give me a few minutes. My ADSL uploads slowly to YouTube.
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Old 03-07-11, 12:09 PM   #16
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Here is where I got my big apples tires. I got them in a week with shipping from the East coast to the West.

http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_...ducts_id=30821
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Old 03-07-11, 12:12 PM   #17
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Here is the video.

Okay...


I didn't mention in the video that I'm also planning to do a gear conversion, to make this a single speed bike. (Free-Wheel, obviously. A Fixed gear would be a BAAAD idea. lol) Never the less, I don't need 4623434 gears with a 48 Volt 5303. =P
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Old 03-07-11, 01:53 PM   #18
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Nice bike Good video. One of the Hubs that Ebike.ca sells has a 4mm offset to get the disc brake in the proper position. So I dont know if that's a problem or not. I didn't see what your front tire is like. If it has more clearance and the hookworms are too big for the back maybe swap?? Just an Idea.
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Old 03-07-11, 03:03 PM   #19
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How much extra weight are you talking? If it's 50 lbs more ... that's the difference between a 150 lb and a 200 lb rider.

My road bike (non electric, about 20 lbs) was perfectly happy with 700x23 tires and me, a 200 lb rider ... (though I do like the 28mm tires I have on it now better.)

If you want fat tires, get them for all the reasons people get fat tires for -- but unless your electric bike is like 100 lbs, I don't think there's any need to get fat tires just because of that.

Probably good advice.
A couple things to think about:

The contact patch on a 23-622 tire is about one square inch, so with your 220lb rider/bike combo, if you were using the average 110PSI tire - your tires probably weren`t near as happy as you think they were. In fact you would have had to be running 130PSI tires to have any safety factor at all to deal with normal road irregularities and that still wouldn` be enough to deal with even a small pothole. Thats just the math.

The problem with ebikes is that they can sustain a higher average speed than ANY rider can sustain for a longer period of time. ie 35km/hr for a 2hr stretch. The higher speeds mean that the tires need to deal with higher loads from surface irrigularities and will be expected to deaccelerate more often from those higher speeds in the same distance. Thats just the way people drive them. And in addittion to the extra weight of the battery and motor, an ebike typically has a heaver frame and rim construction for the same reasons. If that wasn`t already enough - people tend to load them with saddlebags, trailers and other things that they would be reluctant to put on a regular commuter. Tires have a load rating and its a good idea to match that with the expected use of the bike.
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Old 03-07-11, 04:36 PM   #20
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A couple things to think about:

The contact patch on a 23-622 tire is about one square inch
Actually, the contact patch size doesn't really vary much based on the size of the tire. What matters is the air pressure -- 220 lbs of rider and bike on 110 psi tires = 2 square inches of contact patch total (between both tires), whatever the size of the tire.

Which is about what you said, but if the rider + bike is 150 lbs, the contact patch is about 1.4 square inches total.

Of course, on most upright bikes, most of the weight is on the back tire, so the back tire has a larger contact patch ...

Quote:
and that still wouldn` be enough to deal with even a small pothole. Thats just the math.
Small tires don't deal well with potholes. That's a strong argument for larger tires on any bike.

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Tires have a load rating and its a good idea to match that with the expected use of the bike.
Absolutely. But size of the tire is only one of many factors that go into that load rating.
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Old 03-07-11, 06:11 PM   #21
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Well I guess we almost agree

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Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
Actually, the contact patch size doesn't really vary much based on the size of the tire. What matters is the air pressure -- 220 lbs of rider and bike on 110 psi tires = 2 square inches of contact patch total (between both tires), whatever the size of the tire.

Which is about what you said, but if the rider + bike is 150 lbs, the contact patch is about 1.4 square inches total.

Of course, on most upright bikes, most of the weight is on the back tire, so the back tire has a larger contact patch ...

Small tires don't deal well with potholes. That's a strong argument for larger tires on any bike.

Absolutely. But size of the tire is only one of many factors that go into that load rating.
I think you`ll find the contact patch of a 50-622 closer to 2.5 square inches per tire. Which is the only reason they can run 55PSI and still handle a 220lb load. And also the reason they have MUCH more effective braking performance than a skinny tire, regardless of the kind of brakes used.
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