corkscrew

Hi guys.

I'm looking into a 500 watt mid-drive Cyclone motor kit for my recumbent T1 trike.

I have a commute of 10 miles (both directions). I might be able to charge the battery at work, but worst case scenario, I'd like to have a range of about 30 miles.

I plan on using it as a pedal assist, as it ties in to the existing drive train.

What's the best way to figure out what battery would get me those results?

jethro56 

There's so many variables here. Best guess 35 watt hrs/mile

Sangesf

35wh/mile * 30 miles = 1050wh
36v 20ah is 720wh or 20.5 miles
48v 20ah is 960wh or 27.5 miles

Both those fugues are no pedaling whatsoever.
Figure $350 for 36v
Figure $550 for 48v

FFR Trikes

I would expect about 20 wh/mile with the mid drive. Here's the deal:

If you're going with Lithium-based chemistries, you can safely use 80% of the total capacity.

So if you're looking for 30 miles, 20 wh/mile * 30 miles = 600wh.

600 wh/.8 =750 wh.

750 wh/ 48 volts = about 15 amp hours. So a 48V 15 Ah pack would be your best bet, or a 36V 20Ah pack, but it might come up a mile or two short of 30 miles.

Good luck!

corkscrew

Thanks guys. Sounds like a 36V 20Ah pack would do it for me then, as I plan on pedaling along. If I'm sneaky, I can probably charge it at work too.

Mabman

I routinely get 40 miles out of a 48v/12ah Lifepo4 battery using lots of throttle and pedaling on top of the motor in hilly terrain averaging about 20 mph. Your conventional gear ratio's should cover your ability to do that.

It will cost about $.10 to charge your battery so if they complain about that at work then just give them a few bucks to cover it per month.

Sangesf

20wh per mile is definitely with pedaling..
With mid drive and gearing, I'm totally clueless.. LOL

rscamp

FWIW I'm using an eZee hub on an ICE trike and the way I ride I use between 4 - 12 Wh/km which is about 6 - 20Wh/mi. I wouldn't be pedaling much at 20Wh/mi...

dumbass 

Well you can go ahead and bye that 36v pack but if memory serves me correctly yhe Cyclone 500w setup is only 24v. So I would highly recommend you verify the voltage of the motor before buying the pack. Personally I would not assume a 20 or 35wh per mile range. I would be thinking no less then 50wh per pile and in some cases 75. Why? Because you are going to have those days when you are not up to doing quite as much peddling or there's high winds. Remember your heading to work on this thing. Do you really want to arrive looking like you just ran the marathron? But of course it's just an opinion. BTY, I was getting about 35wh per mine on my Chclone 360 on a hard tail but I was only traveling at 12 to 15 MPH on bike trails. My peddle to motor input was 35%/65% of the total bikes power. But there were those days when it slipped down badly and I was only getting 75wh per mile.

Bob

chvid

I'm averaging around 15 watt hours per mile on my trike using it in "pedal assist all the time" mode. That gives me about 40 miles of range, 45 on a good day if I'm strong, on my 720 watt hour battery (Ping 48V 15 Ahr), using the battery to around 85% depth of discharge to not stress it. I think you would like the very quiet performance of a hub motor - the Cyclones make a lot of noise, and could have problems in wet weather as well, I gather...the Crystalyte 4xx series is dead silent on my bikes. The NineContinent has some perceptible sound. The Cyclones would be too loud for me.

corkscrew

I will look into that. I was looking at 24v packs before this post lol, where everyone suggested 36v & 48v. The manufacturer sells it with a 24v 8amp/hr pack - and he just answered my e-mail saying it gives a range of roughly 20 miles. Seems questionable, but where it ties into the drive train, it would certainly vary. Although it seems that 24v 30amp/hr packs are similar in price to the 36v 20 amp/hr ones.

As to arrive hot and sweaty, I already ride the 10 mile one way commute several times a week. I'm blessed with a shower and a locker room at both ends of the ride though. I figure with an EV assist, I'll be more likely to ride when I don't feel like pedaling for 45 minutes, or am hungover.

Also, they list the motor as having a top speed of about 32mph - wouldn't the top speed in a mid drive kit be determined by the actual gearing between crank and cassette?

corkscrew

I am concerned about the weather proofing of the unit. I was hoping to build some sort of splash guard system, but it's all rather conceptual right now, as I know these units need airflow to stay cool.

However, I am rather fond of the 9 speed rear end currently on my trike, I didn't like that the hub motor kits use freewheels. According to what I read I'd have to come up with a special spacer and cold set my dropouts to run the new 14-34 megarange 7 speed I have sitting around.

As far as the noise, so long as the 500watt Cyclone is quieter than the 2 stroke gasoline units I see everywhere, I think I'll be fine with it.

15rms

corkscrew I have put several miles on a cyclone LWB recumbent bike. It is 24 volt. Be carefull about what the seller is telling you about range. The cyclone 500 watt motor is known to eat amps. It is not a motor that runs well on a small amp battery. 20 amps is the smallest I would suggest for this motor. The bike I ride is my sons. When we ride together we often go 30 miles. I peddle a lot with the motor. He has a 30 amp ping battery.

I would suggest this exact set up. The ping 30 amp battery is known to be a very good value. The 30 amps will get you there and back even if you don't want to peddle. If you want a smaller maybe 20 amp battery consider the cyclone 360watt system. Not as much power and works ok with just 15 amps.

Also the cyclone I ride runs just great in the 20 -22 mph ranger without peddling. 30 mph is peddling as fast you can.

corkscrew

Yeah, I was rather suspect about the 8amp battery they sell with the motor. Doesn't seem like near enough juice! I will for sure be looking at the 24v 30amp battery when the stars align and I can afford the battery & motor (+cycle analyst) at once.

Thanks for the info. I'm still getting my recumbent legs, but I seem to be able to cruise around 15mph when I'm pushing things. 20mph without pedaling would speed my commute up in a hurry.

corkscrew

Quick question:

I've got a budget of $1300 to electrify my trike.

I've since realized you can order the Cyclone motors from a US supplier, which cuts down on shipping.

Is it worthwhile to step up to the 960w motor and a 36v 20amp/hr Ping battery?

I've heard questionable things about Cyclone too by spending more time on the endless sphere sites. Such as the 500 motor is the same as the 960 only using an exterior controller.

Would I be better off going the RC route? Or perhaps a 9 continent hub motor?

Synopsis: $1300 to get my recumbent trike a range of 25-30 miles with no pedaling, with a top speed of around 35mph. (Local restrictions be damned, I just want to know I CAN do it. )

FFR Trikes

Corkscrew,

I attempted to send you a PM, but unfortunately the forum won’t allow me to send one since I have less than 50 posts.

In order to use a RC drive, you will need a throttle interface unit (basically a servo tester integrated with a power supply and wired to a throttle). You can get those from either Matt or us.

As far as battery selection goes, I can share with you our experiences. On our Astro-powered Transition One trikes, we typically see anywhere from 18-30 wh/mile. That's a 4kW motor geared for 30 mph. The Turnigy outrunners are about 85% efficient, while the Astro's are about 93% efficient, so I would expect about a 5 wh/mile increase with the Turnigy. One of the first upright bikes we set up used a Turnigy 80-100-B.

30 wh/mile would be a good figure for calculating the size pack you need with the 80-100, no pedaling, geared for 35 mph. We always go with LiPo, because the RC setups can pull a lot of current, up to ~200A peak with the HV160. The Ping packs unfortunately won't support that, and have a much higher internal resistance.

So for 30 miles at 30 Watt-hours/mile, you'd need 900 Wh of usable capacity. At a standard 80% DOD, this would be a 1,125 Wh pack. In other words, ten 6S 5000 mah LiPo packs.

Here's a couple things you could do to reduce the size of your pack:
1. Gear down a touch to 30 mph
2. Use a more efficient motor
3. Make sure you have the pedal gearing to pedal with the motor at full speed, if not, use a Schlumpf HSD

Hope this helps! Feel free to ask any more questions you might have.

Thanks,

Tommy
FFR Trikes
717-360-0726
tom@FFRtrikes.com

corkscrew

@FFR

I can give on the top speed. I'm not up to date on what gear inches = what speed, but a quick visit to Sheldon's site lists my 50/39/30 crank & 11-34 9 speed rear end with a min of 24 gear inches and a high of 123.5.

I'm willing to gear for 30 (Matt's calculator gave me a top end of 28ish with a 80-100 A, and a 44v 20 amp/hr pack as described on Matt's site. , and if the range was even 20-25 miles it would be ok too. Technically a 12 mile range would get me to work so long as I bought a second charger and the pack was removable and could sit on my desk.

The one thing I'm concerned about with going RC is staying within my budget, as it requires the most parts to order. I'll have to build or buy a new rear wheel too, as my current 700c rear doesn't have a disc mount. (Might convert it to 26" to make that easier).

Turnigy 80-100 (Why did you guys use the 80-100-B vs the A?

FFR Trikes

Just ran your numbers for that gearing on a 26" wheel, and at a cadence of 80 RPM, you're good to go for 34 mph in your tallest gear, so no worries there if your motor is geared for 30 mph, will probably run ~33 mph hot off the charger.

The nice thing about the Astro-based RC componentry is that they really are top-quality parts that will last for thousands and thousands of miles. The Turnigy 80-100 is a great value, but low quality bearings and low-temp magnet glues have been their achilles heel. Individuals who have tried to remedy these issues end up either spending a handful of hours making upgrades to the motor, or they eventually get frustrated and go to an Astro. The more efficient Astro also allows for the purchase of less batteries, which makes a for a cheaper and lighter power system.

With the Astro 3210, a 44.4V 15Ah pack would likely average about 26 miles of range @ 20 wh/mile. That would allow you to stick with a single charger and simplify the whole charging process.

We used the 80-100-B because of the lower kV @ 130. The lower rpm of the B makes for simpler gearing than the higher RPM A.

Thanks again,

Tommy

corkscrew

I'll have to build an RC build next time. For my first time around I've ended up building a LIPO 44.4v 20A/h battery, coupling it with a 9C hub motor. Thank's for the help with the RC stuff though!

dumbass 

Here's a dumb question for you. Considering you are reading the ES site why don't you tal to this guy? He has a very slightly used Cyclone setup that may work perfect for you and it's only $375 shipped and it's a 960w setup. And he has been advertizing it for sometime now so he may take an offer. Be carefull though. I know the Cyclone motors with an internal controller is a PITA to reverse direction on. This one is an external controller though. But I would still check the direction of rotation to be sure it matches what you need. Or at least find out how to change it before you buy.

Bob

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...hp?f=9&t=25012

corkscrew

I saw that post. For some reason didn't think it was still available. Either way, for my trike I'd want a mid drive cyclone unit - don't particularly care to have a freewheeling crankset, and I'd have to dump my 165mm cranks for the 170s in the kit.

corkscrew

So any estimates on my incoming setup's watts/mile?

40amp Controller, 44.4V LIPO 20C 20A/h pack, 2806 9 Continent motor in a 700C wheel with a 700x35tire.

rscamp

Your fuel economy depends almost totally on how you ride, Corkscrew. The equipment you have and your environment only play a role in the minimum fuel economy you can achieve.

Ebike 'fuel economy' is measured in watt-hours per mile (or km) which is the amount of energy consumed per unit distance. You can't consume watts/mile. That would be power per mile which doesn't make sense.

Best case = 0 Wh/mi - you pedal without turning on the motor
Worst case = maybe 30Wh/mi - you never pedal, ride fast, use the brakes a lot and climb a lot of steep hills

jveitch

I have Cyclone 500W motor with a 24V 16 Ah LiFepo4 battery supplied by Cyclone. The battery tested out at 17Ah when I received it.
The Cyclone 500W does make some noise due to the internal gearing in the motor head (the square area when you look at the pictures) but I wouldn't call the noise a big deal. But if you want silent, its not.
Before I bought and mounted my Cyclone (mid-drive) I had all the same questions about range and speed. The answer depends on many things like the gearing of your bike, your wheels, the terrain you ride and especially how you pedal the thing. So no one who gives an answer here is going to give you a totally accurate answer. My observation is that the 500W motor is good for climbing hills and acceleration but not for top speed. Just sitting there watching the world go by without pedaling I can only get about 25 mph on my home built trike with 26 inch back wheel. On the good side I can climb hills like a goat. Another thing I like is the performance in tight traffic situations like at an intersection. I can concentrate on the traffic and use my Cyclone to punch the power to it when I need it.
I thought I'd use the motor a lot but I've found I use it a lot less than I had expected. I like to pedal, fun, exercise, what ever and I feel like a weenie if I lean on the electric throttle too much. So now I truly use the electric to augment my ride. The motor flattens the hills and helps at intersections. For speed, it's me on the pedals.
The mid-drive set up is a great idea. It lets me use all 27 gears as normal. I have a Sram Dual Drive II with a 11-34 cassette. With power pouring out of the electric motor I can step up through all the gears with no hesitation. When coming down through the gears I need to slack power when stepping down through the Dual Drive hub but can keep power on stepping down through the cassette.
The twist throttle supplied by Cyclone has worked fine but I put a thumb adapter on it to make it easier to twist. Over all I'm very happy with my Cyclone 500W, it suits me fine because I live in a hilly area. If I were to try to go as far as I could, only using electric, I'm guessing I could go 40-50 kilometers. Pedaling maybe triple that.
Not all good news though. I have a double-free-wheel on my motor, supplied by Cyclone, mounted between front crank and rear (I've got a tadpole trike). After 300 miles the double-free-wheel crapped out on a hill. Motor goes but no power coming out of the double-free-wheel. But the good news, I emailed Cyclone in Taiwan and they will send me a new free-wheel for the cost of postage, fair enough me thinks.
So, I'm sure I've added little to this discussion except to advise you are going to have to give it a try and see how it goes your you. It's hell being at the cutting edge of technology....the bleeding edge.
Good luck,
JV

jethro56 

jveitch: Great post! Good to have you here.