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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypedal View Post
    http://ypedal.com/recycle/recycle.htm

    Gave that up back in 2011..... i need to update that page with recent info.. but as you can see.... yes i've done my share of testing with used cells..
    I see no laptop cells on that page or testing ?

    Is this more E.S. style battery debating ?

    Have you ever built a recycled ebike battery from recycled laptop cells and used them to ride out ?

    I have.
    http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=37952

    Won't post about any of my testing on E.S. anymore.
    Last edited by biker; 12-24-13 at 11:17 AM.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Ypedal's Avatar
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    They are the same cell format, laptops and power tools both use 18650's ... and yes, i've capacity tested lots of various brands, new and used, salvaged from laptop and power tool packs... laptop packs tend to be made with higher capacity / lower C rate cells.. while power tool packs are lower capacity / higher C rate ( lower internal resistance )..

    I built a few smaller packs for low powered ebike projects, they worked, but during that time i was also playing with RC lipo and quickly abandonned the the used 18650's for new RC pouch cells... less time building.. more time riding.

    what's your point ?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypedal View Post
    They are the same cell format, laptops and power tools both use 18650's ... and yes, i've capacity tested lots of various brands, new and used, salvaged from laptop and power tool packs... laptop packs tend to be made with higher capacity / lower C rate cells.. while power tool packs are lower capacity / higher C rate ( lower internal resistance )..

    I built a few smaller packs for low powered ebike projects, they worked, but during that time i was also playing with RC lipo and quickly abandonned the the used 18650's for new RC pouch cells... less time building.. more time riding.

    what's your point ?
    Tesla uses 18650 cells. What is your point ?

    Are you here just to trash Dk angl's work ?

    Is the trashing he gets on E.S. not enough so you come on bikeforums and trash him here too ?

  4. #29
    Senior Member Ypedal's Avatar
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    it's not talking trash, it's speaking out about safety... very big difference.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypedal View Post
    it's not talking trash, it's speaking out about safety... very big difference.
    Thank you for your safety concerns.

    Merry Christmas , happy new year and all.

    I have been reading and geeking out heavy duty on html. css and javascript and am building websites. Have not had a lot of time to do posting.

    Hope you are doing well.

    Hang in there !
    Last edited by biker; 12-24-13 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #31
    Senior Member DrkAngel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypedal View Post
    They are the same cell format, laptops and power tools both use 18650's ... and yes, i've capacity tested lots of various brands, new and used, salvaged from laptop and power tool packs... laptop packs tend to be made with higher capacity / lower C rate cells.. while power tool packs are lower capacity / higher C rate ( lower internal resistance )..

    I built a few smaller packs for low powered ebike projects, they worked, but during that time i was also playing with RC lipo and quickly abandonned the the used 18650's for new RC pouch cells... less time building.. more time riding.

    what's your point ?
    Just curious ...
    I'm interested in your (Ypedal's) safety rating of various battery types:

    Personally, I would rate:
    1. RC Lipo as most hazardous (Numerous fires, "explosions" etc.)
    2. SLA - Lead Acid (explosion danger from short or hydrogen gas ... acid leakage etc. )
    3. High output 18650 cells
    4. Laptop 18650 cells, "replacement" packs, from "unknown" manufacturers
    5. LiFePO4
    6. Laptop 18650 cells, from reputable manufacturers, as safest (except some 20th century builds and 2006 contaminated Sony cells)
    Last edited by DrkAngel; 12-25-13 at 05:34 AM.
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  7. #32
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    this ad popped up on the side.

    http://tuv-sud-america.com/Landingpa...FcFj7AodVh8A1w

    The less ev battery fires the better for the ev movement for sure.

    It is so common for people on E.S. to promote using rc lipo on evs.

    When E.S. started promoting putting a cheap bms on rc lipo to make the rc lipo safer was when E.S. battery forum hit bottom safety wise.

    Ypedal your forum is a mess battery safety wise,
    Last edited by biker; 12-30-13 at 10:10 AM.

  8. #33
    Senior Member Ypedal's Avatar
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    I've been pondering a proper reply to this thread without writing a book...

    I agree, RC Lipo has the most potential for a dramatic release of energy compared to lower power cells when things go seriously wrong. It all comes down to the user, knowing enough about batteries to spot a problem before it turns into an accident.

    A pack is only as good as it's weakest cell, in a perfect world, all cells would be equal and die at the same time after a specific number of cycles or calendar months/years, they do not.

    I have built dozens of ebikes for friends and customers, depending on each person's level of understanding, i've set them up with what was best suited to their needs... for some .. it's money.. for others it's reliability.. and everything in between. That being said, i have met and dealt with some people who simply do not have the required diligence to own anything but a completely protected battery pack to protect them from themselves... ( the things some people will do.... oh man... i worked 16 years in a call center doing Tech Support.... i could write a book. ) ... and .. there are also some very intelligent people out there who " get it " and understand regular common sense, with enough education they can operate a high power, high voltage, dangerous ebike as well as myself and many other 1%'ers ...

    Got a big box of BMS's, from all sorts of suppliers, large majority of them suck, however there are finally now some passable units, but i have spent / wasted 1000's of dollars looking for the one " Perfect BMS " .. and it's not here yet... at least not an affordable one.

    Building a pack with " End of Life " recycled cells, is stacking all the odds against yourself from the starting line.... yes it's possible.. no it's not a good idea, for all the reasons i have listed already.

  9. #34
    Senior Member Ypedal's Avatar
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    I consider a pack made of New, Tested RC Lipo cells safer than a pack made of previously used 18650 cells mixed together.

  10. #35
    Senior Member technoD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrkAngel View Post
    Just curious ...
    I'm interested in your (Ypedal's) safety rating of various battery types:

    Personally, I would rate:
    1. RC Lipo as most hazardous (Numerous fires, "explosions" etc.)
    2. SLA - Lead Acid (explosion danger from short or hydrogen gas ... acid leakage etc. )
    3. High output 18650 cells
    4. Laptop 18650 cells, "replacement" packs, from "unknown" manufacturers
    5. LiFePO4
    6. Laptop 18650 cells, from reputable manufacturers, as safest (except some 20th century builds and 2006 contaminated Sony cells)
    I've been lurking and reading all the posts here for awhile now.
    I am contemplating a pack rebuild using my 2 existing SLA cases on my 2008 currie Izip mountain trailz AL. My current controller has to stay below 36volts to work properly on this model unless I order a newer controller so from your choices numbered above, I assume to consider the LIFEpo4 technology to be safe as a power source??
    Just gathering data for my build at the moment...

    Thanks for your input and efforts here too.
    Last edited by technoD; 12-30-13 at 12:59 PM.
    Ride to live, live to ride!

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypedal View Post
    I consider a pack made of New, Tested RC Lipo cells safer than a pack made of previously used 18650 cells mixed together.
    That would depend on who builds the packs ?

    Cheap lowest price rc lipo can not compare to a carefully built homemade battery pack.

    When a new laptop pack sits too long the little bms in it will kill 2 cells making the whole pack useless even if it was never used.

    Take the other 4 cells, test them and reuse them for other battery packs. It is very common to do.

    Some cells say Panasonic or Samsung on them. Some of the best li ion cells made.

    If you know how to spot good cells then you can get ebike li ion for cheap ! Cheaper than HK lipo.

    Spotting good cells is a battery pack building skill that can take awhile to develop.

    The rc lipo packs from HK prove that the people at HK lack those skills.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by technoD View Post
    I've been lurking and reading all the posts here for awhile now.
    I am contemplating a pack rebuild using my 2 existing SLA cases on my 2008 currie Izip mountain trailz AL. My current controller has to stay below 36volts to work properly on this model unless I order a newer controller so from your choices numbered above, I assume to consider the LIFEpo4 technology to be safe as a power source??
    Just gathering data for my build at the moment...

    Thanks for your input and efforts here too.
    I have been using 2 of these on my Currie setup for about a year now.

    http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-...thout-PCM.aspx

    I put balance leads on them so they could be charged with a balance charger.

    You can buy balancers for them if you want.

    Best ebike battery deal going that I know of if you want new cells that are easy to connect.

  13. #38
    Senior Member technoD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biker View Post
    I have been using 2 of these on my Currie setup for about a year now.

    http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-...thout-PCM.aspx

    I put balance leads on them so they could be charged with a balance charger.

    You can buy balancers for them if you want.

    Best ebike battery deal going that I know of if you want new cells that are easy to connect.
    Thanks for the link! I bookmarked it since that's a source I don't have yet.
    Do you have any pics or links as to how you balance them??
    The only charger I use at the moment is my 24v 1.8amp SLA charger.
    I'm still learning how to make the mod as this is my first electric bike. Throttle was changed to a military momentary switch, so I want to go back to the PAS/TAG set up.
    Ride to live, live to ride!

  14. #39
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    I am using a Hyperion 1420 rc charger.

    Look on that page where it says options for a charger and balancers for that battery.

    Chargers http://www.batteryspace.com/smartcha...terypacks.aspx
    Last edited by biker; 12-30-13 at 01:53 PM.

  15. #40
    Senior Member DrkAngel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypedal View Post
    I consider a pack made of New, Tested RC Lipo cells safer than a pack made of previously used 18650 cells mixed together.
    "New, Tested RC Lipo cells" ... ?
    New, (manufacturer) Tested RC Lipo cells are a major source for damages, fires, "explosions" etc.!

    You must mean tested by you ... the 1% Elite?

    Seems like almost daily there is some report of another RC Lipo meltdown, fire, or worse.

    I've been building and recommending recycled laptop cell builds for 6+ years and have yet to have, or hear of, anything anywhere near so dangerous happening.
    Dozens of others report success and happiness with their builds and, probably, many many times that number also have succeeded.

    Maybe we should all apply for membership in your 1% Elite?
    Last edited by DrkAngel; 01-01-14 at 11:09 AM.
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  16. #41
    Senior Member Ypedal's Avatar
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    Elite is not the correct choice of word...... more like anally retentive.. obsessive compulsive.. paranoid ..

  17. #42
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    For the people that can get the non working laptop packs for free or cheap it sure is a low cost way to learn about battery pack building.

    Also the more I do it the faster I get at putting a pack together.

    I suggest using a good rc charger like the Hyperion hooked to a display so you can study the pack while charging and discharging.

    Also data logging the pack using cell logs during a ride gives good feedback about your homemade pack.

    Unattended charging appears to be the cause of many ebike lipo fires.

    Using a bms leads to unattended charging. I see more ebike lipo fires on the way thanks to E.S. and their cheap lipo bms ideas.

    Ypedal, Justin ? Where were you when this started to happen and why did you not stand up and say something on the E.S. battery forum ?
    Last edited by biker; 01-02-14 at 09:21 AM.

  18. #43
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    I like to put on an old record, ride the exercise bike and watch the display while charging.

    Attended charging can be fun !

    Unattended charging can burn down your life.
    Last edited by biker; 01-02-14 at 09:53 AM.

  19. #44
    Senior Member Ypedal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biker View Post
    Unattended charging appears to be the cause of many ebike lipo fires.
    Not at all, but being present allows you to take action right away...

    And it's Gaston, not Justin, ES is not " my " forum, i am moderator there, but that's it.. i spend insane amounts of time reading on there as well as many other forums, including this one ( lots to learn in the bicycle mechanic section .. i like it very much )..

    There are many more people using Lipo than recycled-laptop-cell-packs, and yes, there have been fires, and there will be more in the future.. all we can do is give as many warnings as possible and leave it up to individuals to make educated decisions regarding their actions.

    Look at RC forums, there are threads dedicated to fires... Doing our best to document how they started, how to improve things, etc etc etc.. all in the name of progress.

    I personally have not yet had an accidental fire, and i've used dozens of packs made from every chemistry available.. and yet.. i still feel it's important to remind readers of the dangers on a regular basis... always better safe than sorry.

  20. #45
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    I know of more laptop cell ebike packs than rc lipo packs in the Tampa Bay area.

    And I know many ebikers in the Tampa Bay area and none are members of E.S except floot and his house burned down because of an unattended lipo charging fire ?

    E.S. seems to be its own little ebike world with its own rules about battery safety.

    Who is paying the bill for E.S. to promote using a cheap bms for cheap rc lipo on ebikes ? Justin ?

    I think the whole ev world would be better off if that person quit paying the bill to promote such unsafe ebike battery ideas.

    You know what else you will see at the rc forums ?

    How to solder together a lipo brick using A123m1 cells.

    Tell the lost kids.
    Last edited by biker; 01-02-14 at 10:08 AM.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Ypedal's Avatar
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    ES is owned by Justin, but he is not an active member, and is not actively marketing it for profit using adds etc... one of the reasons i like that place so much, no clutter, no banners, no flashy...

    Yes, the large majority of the members are running high-powered ebikes, there are not too many options for powering them other than RC lipo unless you want to lug around a HUGE and heavy pack... to claim that es is promoting the unsafe use of lipo with cheap BMS's is totally wrong...... it's a discussion forum, not unlike this one, with members of all sorts, who do what they do and talk about it for the benefit of all. If you don't like it, don't read it..

    aaanyways.. this is going nowhere.. so .. moving on. have a good day.

  22. #47
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    It appears that the people promoting using a cheap bms on cheap lipo are also selling them on E.S. ?

    Justin is getting pimped ?

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypedal View Post
    ES is owned by Justin, but he is not an active member, and is not actively marketing it for profit using adds etc... one of the reasons i like that place so much, no clutter, no banners, no flashy...

    Yes, the large majority of the members are running high-powered ebikes, there are not too many options for powering them other than RC lipo unless you want to lug around a HUGE and heavy pack... to claim that es is promoting the unsafe use of lipo with cheap BMS's is totally wrong...... it's a discussion forum, not unlike this one, with members of all sorts, who do what they do and talk about it for the benefit of all. If you don't like it, don't read it..

    aaanyways.. this is going nowhere.. so .. moving on. have a good day.
    Tell that to this kid. His bike uses headways ?

    http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=51944

    E.S. is the box you need to think outside of.

  24. #49
    Senior Member Ypedal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biker View Post

    E.S. is the box you need to think outside of.
    LMAO.... dude...

    edit to add : The makers of the Stealth Bomber got most of their data from being members of ES... and Headcase batteries are far from the ideal battery solution.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypedal View Post
    LMAO.... dude...

    edit to add : The makers of the Stealth Bomber got most of their data from being members of ES... and Headcase batteries are far from the ideal battery solution.
    I read E.S. a lot and I did not know headways went that fast !

    That info got lost in the debates ?

    E.S. was great back in the day.

    Now they don't know the safe lipo voltages and are putting cheap bms on hk lipo ?

    http://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...38a6ba#p838190
    Last edited by biker; 01-02-14 at 12:10 PM.

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