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  1. #1
    Senior Member DrkAngel's Avatar
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    Cool eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

    There are differing expectations and uses of eBikes.

    I, personally, would like to sub-categorize "eBikes", into 3 categorizes.

    1. eaBikes - electric assist bikes
    <750 watt output motor ?
    Healthy man is capable of sustaining 20%, or more, of the eBikes propulsion

    2. eBikes - electric bikes
    >750 watt output motor ?
    Where healthy man is capable of reasonable contribution - but, essentially, only during limited throttle use.
    Due to wind resistance, a tucked position increases range, better than a "proper" pedaling position.
    Somewhere near 30 mph, the cyclist, (<10-15% contribution), is detrimental, to speed and range, compared to a more aerodynamically positioned, (non-pedaling), rider.

    3. eMotorcycle - incapable of any "reasonable" % pedal assist
    Pedals are "ornamental", if they even exist!

    Note: 750w (watt) = 1hp = USA, Federally recommended, eBike limitation.
    Last edited by DrkAngel; 07-25-14 at 05:48 PM.
    "Best of all! ... I get to play. ... http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...&thumb=1&stc=1
    Sorry! ... I'm addicted to improving enhancing.
    With side orders of inspiring enlightening!"

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  2. #2
    Senior Member DrkAngel's Avatar
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    Cool eaBikes

    Quote Originally Posted by DrkAngel View Post
    There are differing expectations and uses of eBikes.
    I tend to group them into 3 major classifications - based on degree of pedal assist.
    I, personally, would like to sub-categorize "eBikes", into 3 categorizes.

    1. eaBikes - electric assist bikes
    <750 watt output motor ?
    Healthy man is capable of sustaining 20%, or more, of the eBikes propulsion
    Electric assist bike.
    Self-explanatory!
    A bicycle with additional power when wanted or needed.

    The most common and popular. Pedal use is a major motivation factor.

    Electric motor assist is applied to:
    Help make it up hills
    Maintain a higher sustainable speed
    Commute at a reasonable speed ... without getting tired and sweaty

    Motor watt output limitations, in much of the world, make this the most common and popular(?) type.

    To prevent motor drag, during pedal only, a motor with freewheel is recommended.
    Sadly, this excludes most of the typical hub motors.
    Most hub motors produce a noticeable drag when not powered ... like pedaling a normal bicycle with the brakes dragging.
    (Probably more similar to running with dangerously low tire pressure)

    Ideal assist motor might be a front geared hub motor.
    Your favorite bike, expensive drivetrain intact, with additional assist up front for the hills, extra acceleration or a bit more sustainable top speed - without drag when idle.
    or
    The inexpensive external drive motor.
    Advantages are that it produces no drag, (with freewheel), and is regearable and revoltable to provide substantial assist at low speed or some assist at top speed.

    For the eaBike ...
    The cyclist is the primary force and the motor is an enhancement.
    Last edited by DrkAngel; 07-25-14 at 07:31 AM.
    "Best of all! ... I get to play. ... http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...&thumb=1&stc=1
    Sorry! ... I'm addicted to improving enhancing.
    With side orders of inspiring enlightening!"

    Acronyms

  3. #3
    Senior Member DrkAngel's Avatar
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    Cool eBike

    Quote Originally Posted by DrkAngel View Post
    There are differing expectations and uses of eBikes.

    I tend to group them into 3 major classifications - based on degree of pedal assist.

    I, personally, would like to sub-categorize "eBikes", into 3 categorizes.

    2. eBikes - electric bikes
    >750 watt output motor ?
    Where healthy man is capable of reasonable contribution - but, essentially, only during limited throttle use.
    Due to wind resistance, a tucked position increases range, better than a "proper" pedaling position.
    Somewhere near 30 mph, the cyclist, (<10-15% contribution), is detrimental, to speed and range, compared to a more aerodynamically positioned, (non-pedaling), rider.
    Typically the motor is the driving force.
    Pedal assist is possible and recommended to increase acceleration or to extend range.

    But pedaling is not required.
    In fact ... at higher speeds, seating in a proper pedaling position and providing substantial pedal power is less effective than motor only in a lowered tucked position.

    A high power front hub motor is not recommended!
    Spinning the rear tire is called "fun"!
    Spinning the front tire produces a nearly immediate ouch situation.

    Most popular type is the rear hub motor.
    Limited by a single gear range but ideal for sustained output at cruising speed.

    The up and comers are the mid-drive systems. This allows high speed assist with substantial starting torque.

    For the eBike ...
    The cyclist becomes a secondary force.
    Last edited by DrkAngel; 07-25-14 at 11:04 AM.
    "Best of all! ... I get to play. ... http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...&thumb=1&stc=1
    Sorry! ... I'm addicted to improving enhancing.
    With side orders of inspiring enlightening!"

    Acronyms

  4. #4
    Senior Member DrkAngel's Avatar
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    Cool eMotorcycle

    Quote Originally Posted by DrkAngel View Post
    There are differing expectations and uses of eBikes.

    I tend to group them into 3 major classifications - based on degree of pedal assist.

    I, personally, would like to sub-categorize "eBikes", into 3 categorizes.

    3. eMotorcycle - incapable of any "reasonable" % pedal assist
    Pedals are "ornamental", if they even exist!
    Enough power that the cyclist becomes a passenger.
    Larger motor provides enough acceleration and speed that trying to pedal becomes hazardous.

    Near 30mph, a proper pedaling position becomes an aerodynamic hindrance.
    Even providing substantial pedal assist does not make up for the increased wind resistance.

    Personal note:
    I tend to despair at the builders who tend to to upgrade - reinforce - rebuild a bicycle, (at great expense), ... rather than modifying a gas motorcycle as an electric.
    Much simpler, safer and ... street legal!

    For the eMotorcycle ...
    The cyclist is turned into a passenger.
    Last edited by DrkAngel; 07-25-14 at 02:43 PM.
    "Best of all! ... I get to play. ... http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...&thumb=1&stc=1
    Sorry! ... I'm addicted to improving enhancing.
    With side orders of inspiring enlightening!"

    Acronyms

  5. #5
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    There are a lot of true e-motorcycles that are quite a bit faster than 30mph, but these need tags, registration, same as a gas motorbike.

    ZERO MOTORCYCLES ? The Electric Motorcycle Company - Official Site (SR is 100+mph, 10k to 17-18k)
    Buy Brammo (10k to 19k, but some as low as 8k for 60-70mph)

    I like the Stormers or the Specialized Turbo, but 3-6k for a bike with Sora-level components is hard to swallow. If the major bicycle manufacturers can come down into the 1-2k range, then that is completely different matter! (I am discounting the kits, as there I don't have the time or skills
    Last edited by JCNeumann; 07-25-14 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Additional Info
    2012 CAAD 10 4 / 2011 Masi Speciale Fixed Drop / 2010 Novara Matador MTB / 2008 BMW cruise bike / 1979 Schwinn Varsity (flat handlebar)

  6. #6
    Senior Member DrkAngel's Avatar
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    Cool Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by JCNeumann View Post
    There are a lot of true e-motorcycles that are quite a bit faster than 30mph, but these need tags, registration, same as a gas motorbike.
    I was more concerned with the danger of using bicycle components at motorcycle speeds, torques etc.
    Even if you upgrade, reinforce, overbuild every component ... you'll, likely, not come close to the strength or durability of an old motorcycle carcass.
    And
    An over built bicycle is only as strong as its weakest component ... don't overlook anything!

    But, it is a good point that an eMotorcycle has tags and registration and most importantly insurance!
    Insurance ... why?
    Hit someone with a hopped up monster eBike and you will face legal and possibly criminal liabilities.
    Much better idea to have a legally insured motor vehicle!!!
    "Best of all! ... I get to play. ... http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...&thumb=1&stc=1
    Sorry! ... I'm addicted to improving enhancing.
    With side orders of inspiring enlightening!"

    Acronyms

  7. #7
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    You are absolutely right about the components! Bike frames, brakes, wheels and tires are not meant for sustained 40-50 mph speeds, in particular with the extra weight of large motors, batteries and other accessories. At 245 I am on the edge with a number of components when pushing hard.

    I hadnt thought of the insurance.

    /off topic

    Having said all that, for s***s and giggles I did try an ST1 Stormer and was very impressed. Took a little while to get used to the extra weight, but this would make an ideal long-range commuter. I've tried pure pedal from CT to NYC and round trip is a little much. But with a little assist to "flatten the hills" it becomes a viable proposition - and not having to pay for a train ticket might be a nice.

    /off topic
    2012 CAAD 10 4 / 2011 Masi Speciale Fixed Drop / 2010 Novara Matador MTB / 2008 BMW cruise bike / 1979 Schwinn Varsity (flat handlebar)

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