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Rear lights - Anywhere on bike/ body/ clothing - Law

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Rear lights - Anywhere on bike/ body/ clothing - Law

Old 10-11-16, 02:04 PM
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Jungle bells?
Yeah that would irritate the heck out of me. I use a bell about once a week. Before a month ago, I rode for 10 years without ever having the need for one.
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Old 10-11-16, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
Bike laws have hardly been enforced in this part of the country until recently. I've even heard of citations for not having a bell. That never would have happened before.
I've heard that Port Authority police have recently ticketed some people on the George Washington Bridge for not having bells. I've hear people in NYC have been cited. Even if it happens, I suspect the risk (overall) is very low.

Originally Posted by noglider
You're probably right that it will annoy me. As for what use it offers, think of bear bells.
I got the similarity to bear bells. The assumption there is that the bears will hear it from fairly far off and that they will hear the bells before you even see the bear. Not the same sort of thing expected when dealing with pedestrians.

Last edited by njkayaker; 10-11-16 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 10-11-16, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers
A lot of times that's one of the big reasons, another reason is it allows companies who sell bells to sell more of them. Imagine how many more bells you're going to sell when bikes are required by law to come with them.
It's highly unlikely that the bell-requirement laws were written with this motivation.
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Old 10-11-16, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
It's highly unlikely that the bell-requirement laws were written with this motivation.
Are you familiar with the Mylan EpiPen scandal? Epi-pen is a device for people who have severe allergic reactions to the point where if they accidental encounter whatever they're allergic to, they'll die. An epi-pen injects them with a drug that - well stops from from dying if used as soon as their reaction starts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...4fa_story.html

Mylan lobbied lawmakers — both directly and indirectly — to increase the availability of epinephrine autoinjectors in U.S. schools. Although these legislative efforts were not supposed to benefit a particular company, the brand has such a lock on the market that when President Obama signed the School Access to Emergency Epinephrine Act in 2013, a news announcement simply called it the “EpiPen Law.”

A provision in the Federal Aviation Administration reauthorization bill that passed the Senate in April requires the agency to update its regulations to ensure that airlines carry epinephrine autoinjectors on board.

In 2012, Mylan announced the EpiPen4Schools program, providing the drug free, which doctors said created a kind of social marketing pressure. Since then, it has given away more than 700,000 free EpiPens to schools nationwide.
It's not always been this expensive, they lobbied for it then raised the price through the roof:
EpiPen Prices: 5 Signs Mylan's EpiPen Pricing Is a Ripoff

That’s based on estimated prices of around $100 for an EpiPen two-pack in 2008, up to around $500 (now $600 after the article was published I believe) today.
If a law is based requiring "mandatory xyz", then the companies that make product xyz have most likely paid money to lobby for the law.

A mandatory bell law isn't going to kill or seriously injure anyone. It's just a bell. But if bike shops are required to sell their bikes with bells, someone is going to make more money selling them. It's not a super secret backroom conspiracy - it's an out in the open (well a lot of it) regular thing businesses do.
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Old 10-11-16, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers
Are you familiar with the Mylan EpiPen scandal? Epi-pen is a device for people who have severe allergic reactions to the point where if they accidental encounter whatever they're allergic to, they'll die. An epi-pen injects them with a drug that - well stops from from dying if used as soon as their reaction starts..
???

So, the bicycle bell industry is like the pharmaceutical industry?

Really?

Originally Posted by PaulRivers
That’s based on estimated prices of around $100 for an EpiPen two-pack in 2008, up to around $500 (now $600 after the article was published I believe) today.
??? What does this have to do with bicycle bells?

Originally Posted by PaulRivers
If a law is based requiring "mandatory xyz", then the companies that make product xyz have most likely paid money to lobby for the law.
Okay...

If you have to go to a completely different industry to make your argument, you aren't likely to be very convincing.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers
A mandatory bell law isn't going to kill or seriously injure anyone. It's just a bell. But if bike shops are required to sell their bikes with bells, someone is going to make more money selling them. It's not a super secret backroom conspiracy - it's an out in the open (well a lot of it) regular thing businesses do.
If it's "not some super secret conspiracy", you should be able to find some sort of evidence for it.

Bike shops are not required to sell bikes with bells.

Last edited by njkayaker; 10-11-16 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 10-11-16, 07:26 PM
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Bicycle Bells, Epi-pens? Did I fall through a rabbit hole into an alternate universe?
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Old 10-11-16, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Well, maybe you forgot something; protocol. Passing without warning, while it may seem to make sense to you, could have legal repercussions if indeed you happened to run into someone OR if someone runs into you. If you call out "on your left" or ring a bell and the people do something stupid like jump in front of you...Hey, then it's on them...to a degree. I say to a degree because when passing you still have a responsibility to control your bike. That means you have to pass, "safely", even if that means slowing to a crawl. Now if you don't give audible warning when passing you can still have people suddenly move into your path, it can happen. That's how commuter paths are and why the rules state you MUST give warning when passing. If you give no audible warning you risk danger to yourself and others. If the people don't hear your warning that doesn't give you the right to ignore potential danger. You still have the responsibility to pass safely even if that means riding by realllllllly slow. When I pass on commuter paths I give a warning at about fifty feet. If I see no response I slow and repeat when I'm at about 10ft. As I see it you are ignoring safety rules simply because you find it inconvenient to safely control the bike. I've walked commuter paths before and I know what it's like to get buzzed by a cyclist. That said, it's one of the reasons why I hate to ride commuter paths when they are busy.

Yeah, walkers are a PITA because they are often distracted. Keep in mind it works the other way as well. Some months ago I almost ran into a jogger on a commuter path because I was looking at my GPS map........Stupid Me!....Taught me a lesson though, " I will never mess with an app again while riding on a commuter path"!
If a moron has earbuds on and they can't hear me it's their fault for not being able to hear me. If they don't have earbuds on then they're in the wrong for not riding or walking on the right. There are other issues to that can be brought up too.
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Old 10-11-16, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
??? So, the bicycle bell industry is like the pharmaceutical industry? Really?
You...are having trouble comprehending that they're 2 businesses? That doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
??? What does this have to do with bicycle bells? Okay... If you have to go to a completely different industry to make your argument, you aren't likely to be very convincing.
I mean feel free to move on to an actual argument rather than just increasing hysteria. Not sure what else to say there, you really didn't add anything.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
If it's "not some super secret conspiracy", you should be able to find some sort of evidence for it.

Bike shops are not required to sell bikes with bells.
...

Wrong. Here's 2 sources from a quick google search -

Bikes with bell attached law to be scrapped after DfT Red Tape Challenge | road.cc
A requirement for all new bikes to be fitted with a bell before they leave the shop is one of 142 transport-related regulations likely to be scrapped by the Department for Transport (DfT) in response to a ‘Red Tape Challenge’ launched in May.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra..._annoying.html
“I have a bell on my bike. I wouldn’t use it other than to avoid getting a ticket for not having a bell,” said Stehr, referring to the provincial law requiring them.

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Old 10-12-16, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
If a moron has earbuds on and they can't hear me it's their fault for not being able to hear me. If they don't have earbuds on then they're in the wrong for not riding or walking on the right. There are other issues to that can be brought up too.
Actually It's your responsibility to control your bike ( and follow path rules ) no matter what the circumstances. Even if you see someone who is highly distracted or otherwise impaired ( be they blind with a seeing-eye dog, hearing impaired ( with earbuds or hearing aids ), deaf, weaving as on drugs, chatting with someone else present or on a phone, walking a dog with too long a leash, walking with little kids who are all over the place or just being distracted for whatever reason )...it doesn't matter, run them down and it's your fault if you aren't following common safety guidelines for riding on a paved commuter pathway. Last time I checked, pedestrians ALWAYS have right of way. You can rationalize your actions all you want and do whatever you think makes sense to you but if you hurt someone by being careless you might have to answer for it if you end up getting sued. Not to mention if a good lawyer finds your postings it won't bode well for you if it goes to court.

About two weeks ago I had to walk to a rent-a-car office because my car was in the shop. ( about 1.2 miles ) Luckily for me most of the walk was on a paved commuter path. Been years since I've walked a commuter path. I got passed several times either by runners or by cyclists. Nowadays my hearing ain't what it used to be so a couple times I was jumping out of my shoes when suddenly buzzed. Thankfully most of the people passing me gave audible warnings. Sometimes when you put the shoe on the other foot it will give you a different perspective of a given situation. You might try going for a walk sometime on a heavily used commuter path and see what the people walking have to deal with.
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Old 10-12-16, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers
You...are having trouble comprehending that they're 2 businesses? That doesn't make any sense.


No, that they are completely different businesses means you have to put some effort into show how, exactly, what the Mylan thing has to do with selling bicycle bells.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers
I mean feel free to move on to an actual argument rather than just increasing hysteria. Not sure what else to say there, you really didn't add anything.
Using the Mylan situation to talk about bicycle bells isn't an argument. It's just bizarre.

Saying there's an industry conspiracy to sell bicycle bells (without any evidence) is "increasing hysteria".

Originally Posted by PaulRivers
Wrong. Here's 2 sources from a quick google search -

Bikes with bell attached law to be scrapped after DfT Red Tape Challenge | road.cc
A requirement for all new bikes to be fitted with a bell before they leave the shop is one of 142 transport-related regulations likely to be scrapped by the Department for Transport (DfT) in response to a ‘Red Tape Challenge’ launched in May.
One law in England. That's being scrapped.

It appears to be an exception.

It's easy and common for people in the US to buy bikes at shops and not leave with a bell.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra..._annoying.html
“I have a bell on my bike. I wouldn’t use it other than to avoid getting a ticket for not having a bell,” said Stehr, referring to the provincial law requiring them.
This is not describing a law requiring bicycles to be sold with them. There are, as I said, laws that require riders to have them.

Last edited by njkayaker; 10-12-16 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 10-12-16, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Actually It's your responsibility to control your bike ( and follow path rules ) no matter what the circumstances. Even if you see someone who is highly distracted or otherwise impaired ( be they blind with a seeing-eye dog, hearing impaired ( with earbuds or hearing aids ), deaf, weaving as on drugs, chatting with someone else present or on a phone, walking a dog with too long a leash, walking with little kids who are all over the place or just being distracted for whatever reason )...it doesn't matter, run them down and it's your fault if you aren't following common safety guidelines for riding on a paved commuter pathway. Last time I checked, pedestrians ALWAYS have right of way. You can rationalize your actions all you want and do whatever you think makes sense to you but if you hurt someone by being careless you might have to answer for it if you end up getting sued. Not to mention if a good lawyer finds your postings it won't bode well for you if it goes to court.

About two weeks ago I had to walk to a rent-a-car office because my car was in the shop. ( about 1.2 miles ) Luckily for me most of the walk was on a paved commuter path. Been years since I've walked a commuter path. I got passed several times either by runners or by cyclists. Nowadays my hearing ain't what it used to be so a couple times I was jumping out of my shoes when suddenly buzzed. Thankfully most of the people passing me gave audible warnings. Sometimes when you put the shoe on the other foot it will give you a different perspective of a given situation. You might try going for a walk sometime on a heavily used commuter path and see what the people walking have to deal with.
Yup, I ride completely out of control for the last 40 years and by luck I've only had two accidents but none involved peds...
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Old 10-12-16, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
Yup, I ride completely out of control for the last 40 years and by luck I've only had two accidents but none involved peds...
But did any involve Epi-pens??
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Old 10-12-16, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
Yup, I ride completely out of control for the last 40 years and by luck I've only had two accidents but none involved peds...
Good for you. This doesn't tell me though how many peds almost turned and walked into you because you didn't warn them. Not to mention that no one keeps track of how many close calls "they" have when on a path ( regardless of who would of been at fault ). I have close calls with people on paths myself and that's when I give warnings and try to ride safely. I don't keep track of those myself I just know they happen. Anyway, point I'm making is that you aren't going to know what almost happened to someone else because you didn't warn someone that you passed. I can't speak for others but when I ride I try my best not to piss people off by sneaking up behind them. It's just not the polite thing to do but that's just my take on it. ( I should also mention here that some of the times I give warnings that many of the people thank me for doing such. Nice to know that being polite sometimes has some positive feedback )
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Old 10-12-16, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Good for you. This doesn't tell me though how many peds almost turned and walked into you because you didn't warn them. Not to mention that no one keeps track of how many close calls "they" have when on a path ( regardless of who would of been at fault ). I have close calls with people on paths myself and that's when I give warnings and try to ride safely. I don't keep track of those myself I just know they happen. Anyway, point I'm making is that you aren't going to know what almost happened to someone else because you didn't warn someone that you passed. I can't speak for others but when I ride I try my best not to piss people off by sneaking up behind them. It's just not the polite thing to do but that's just my take on it. ( I should also mention here that some of the times I give warnings that many of the people thank me for doing such. Nice to know that being polite sometimes has some positive feedback )
you won't give up will you? I've had NONE, not nun, but NONE, ever! Why is that you scream, or perhaps you're screaming impossible, not at all. Besides I always look for a way out, there's always grass I can ride onto should someone get too close for comfort. See, I ride fully aware of my surroundings and thus plan escape routes when necessary. My biggest conflict on bike paths have been with cyclists coming toward me who can't maintain their lane and I've had to take an escape route to avoid a collision.
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Old 10-12-16, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
you won't give up will you? I've had NONE, not nun, but NONE, ever! Why is that you scream, or perhaps you're screaming impossible, not at all. ....
There's no need to argue this point. There are many people who are very concerned about what MAY happen, and focused on the multitude of POSSIBLE negative outcomes.

OTOH - I suspect that you're more like me and pay more attention to what does or does not happen, and accept the small risks of some sudden untoward event as part of life. So, yes, someone may get a notion and do something at any time, but that's always true, and what are the odds that they'll pick that exact moment where I'm too close to react.

On the MUP, I may or may not announce my presence based on my perception of the situation; how much room there is, how consistent pedestrians or cyclists were as I approached, or any number of other things we all use when making judgement calls. I should point out that I'm probably insensitive to the quiet pass issue since I'm a 50 year road rider and used to being passed by cars without warning.
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Old 10-12-16, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
There's no need to argue this point. There are many people who are very concerned about what MAY happen, and focused on the multitude of POSSIBLE negative outcomes.

OTOH - I suspect that you're more like me and pay more attention to what does or does not happen, and accept the small risks of some sudden untoward event as part of life. So, yes, someone may get a notion and do something at any time, but that's always true, and what are the odds that they'll pick that exact moment where I'm too close to react.

On the MUP, I may or may not announce my presence based on my perception of the situation; how much room there is, how consistent pedestrians or cyclists were as I approached, or any number of other things we all use when making judgement calls. I should point out that I'm probably insensitive to the quiet pass issue since I'm a 50 year road rider and used to being passed by cars without warning.
Exactly, nice way of wording it. I'm older too, 63 to be exact, and experience does count for something. Sometimes I do announce my approach and sometimes I don't, like you said we read the situation and make a decision. I've actually ran into more close encounters with peds when I announced I was coming then when I don't because people get confused where left is. But there are times when it is necessary to announce and wait for the peds to figure out where left is and move to the right.

I'm pretty good at handling a bike, I have no problem handling grass, gravel, or dirt on 700x23/25 tires. Before there were mountain bikes myself and a gang I knew would ride mountain dirt trails on just road bikes! So that experience taught me a lot about bike control.
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Old 10-13-16, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker


No, that they are completely different businesses means you have to put some effort into show how, exactly, what the Mylan thing has to do with selling bicycle bells.

Using the Mylan situation to talk about bicycle bells isn't an argument. It's just bizarre.

Saying there's an industry conspiracy to sell bicycle bells (without any evidence) is "increasing hysteria".

One law in England. That's being scrapped.

It appears to be an exception.

It's easy and common for people in the US to buy bikes at shops and not leave with a bell.

This is not describing a law requiring bicycles to be sold with them. There are, as I said, laws that require riders to have them.
Are we just going to compete on who can be the most pendantic and hysterical? I mean if you want to, here's a great post describing how I feel about your posts -

Brain-Dead Teen, Only Capable Of Rolling Eyes And Texting, To Be Euthanized
Brain-Dead Teen, Only Capable Of Rolling Eyes And Texting, To Be Euthanized - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

You've done nothing but empty eye rolling, then loudly declaring that no bike shops were required to sell bikes with bells - which you obviously had no idea what you were talking about, because in 60 seconds with google I was able to find links contradicting your claim. Not to mention the previous poster(s?) in the thread that said they lived somewhere where it was required.

1. Paid lobbyists and campaign contributions are not even illegal. They also buys ads and hire PR people to convince the general public that it's a good idea. The epi-pen company did it, and they're screwing over people who could actually die without their product. With bells we're just talking about a small cost.

2. Behind the scenes payouts and bribes also happen, but I'm not even talking about those. I'm talking about the things that are legal and commonly done to get laws passed that benefit them.

3. If you run across a seemingly bizarre law mandating that something additional must be purchased or used, there's a good chance the bizarreness is because some company that sells those products lobbied for laws to be passed requiring them. "good chance" is not 100%, but it's a good chance.

I'm not sure what your beef is with trying to get angry at people talking about how politics and business and lobbying work, and pretend I guess that all politicians are upstanding people of great moral character (riiiiight), but if there's a seemingly senseless law that says that bikes legally have to be sold with bells, there's a good chance that some business contributed money somewhere to help make that happen. I don't even have to get into shady illegal arrangements - which also happen.
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Old 10-13-16, 04:06 AM
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Bells are not required by law to be put on new adult bicycles when sold, they are however required on bikes for kids, and at least one company, the Electra puts them on for adult bikes too, but you won't find them on adult bikes. Reflectors on the other hand are required on all bikes adult and kids alike. So even though there is a law in most states requiring a bell it hasn't gotten to the federal level as reflectors have. And I haven't heard f any state ticketing adult riders without a bell on, in fact I haven't even heard of that happening with reflectors that most adult riders remove after purchase. There may some local towns that for the sake of needing money might be that anal but as a whole ticketing isn't happening.

HOWEVER, a word of warning, at least this is happening where I live. If you are involved in and accident with a motorist and it's technically not your fault, but it's deemed due to conditions at the time of the crash that you were riding without the required safety stuff, which is the reflectors stuff because it mandatory on bikes, that riding without reflectors may have been a contributing factor in the crash you may lose any case you might try to press against the motorist. Regardless of the word of warning most of my bikes do not have reflectors, I do have shoes with built in reflectors but that won't count because it's not considered part of the bike equipment.
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Old 10-13-16, 05:27 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers
1. Paid lobbyists and campaign contributions are not even illegal. They also buys ads and hire PR people to convince the general public that it's a good idea. The epi-pen company did it, and they're screwing over people who could actually die without their product. With bells we're just talking about a small cost.

2. Behind the scenes payouts and bribes also happen, but I'm not even talking about those. I'm talking about the things that are legal and commonly done to get laws passed that benefit them.

3. If you run across a seemingly bizarre law mandating that something additional must be purchased or used, there's a good chance the bizarreness is because some company that sells those products lobbied for laws to be passed requiring them. "good chance" is not 100%, but it's a good chance.

All this crazy stuff and you still have no evidence.


This is about the weirdest stuff I've ever seen in these forums.
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Old 10-13-16, 01:00 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
...There's no need to argue this point. There are many people who are very concerned about what MAY happen, and focused on the multitude of POSSIBLE negative outcomes. ...
Absolutely correct. That's why there are standards of safety for almost every conceivable activity. I'm just quietly and politely trying to say that there are good reasons for following the cycling protocols when riding on a MUP. I realize that people are not always going to follow rules. I was just endeavoring to show why it is important. I think I did that so I'll let it go at that.

Keep in mind people come on forum all the time and argue over following rules. I'm sure there are people who could come on here and say, "...I've been riding for 40 yrs....I ride against traffic...I never wear a helmet...I use no lights or reflectors on my bike and I've never caused an accident or had one...I ride through intersections regardless of whether the light is red or not"....etc, etc. Yep, some people you can't reach because they are just going to do it "their way" and then beat their chest and justify their actions based on their own history. Now the person who does all those things I just mentioned doesn't care what other people think who see them breaking all the rules because they are just going to do it their way because it's just what they want to do. Mr. rekmeyata, I'm not saying you are one of those or are irresponsible. When you said you didn't give warnings I though you meant you did that all the time. I now read that you "sometimes" give warnings. Okay, didn't say that before or I missed it. This shows me you have concern for others and that's good enough for me. Keep in mind there are people who post here who don't give a hoot about others and I was responding as though you might have been one of them. Sorry if I misjudged you.

Last edited by 01 CAt Man Do; 10-13-16 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 10-13-16, 08:02 PM
  #71  
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01 Cat Man Do; thanks for being more civilized in your response.

I did in fact state that sometimes I yell which I eluded to in post 57; and it post 30 I gave conditions in which I may yell or not.

Experience of riding for over 40 years has enabled me to read a situation quickly. There are two groups of people generally; the first is a group walking, I can't pass those without saying anything because they take up the entire path; the second is a single or a couple walking most of the time, unless they are taking the whole path or walking down the center I pass without warning. And again keep in mind that at all times I have my eye on an out, if a walker suddenly were to move into my path of travel I will go into the grass. I don't make a hazardous pass without an exit plan; but I've been doing this for 40 years and haven't yet had a conflict where I had to use the exit plan.

Encountering cyclists is slightly different, I will almost always yell at a cyclist because they are traveling at close to the same speed as I am, so if they were to suddenly move into my path a conflict possibility is higher vs whizzing by someone at 15 or so mph greater.

Again keep in mind that times have changed a lot over the last at least 10 years. Prior to so many earbud people I could yell more often then I do today because about 99% of earbud users can't hear you until you're right beside them which by then is too late anyways, so to prevent the possibility of a late response then have the person go left instead of right because people don't know their lefts and rights anymore, it's just safer to pass fast without warning. Obviously my biggest conflict with people occur on weekends, during the weekdays there are very few people on the bike path.

It's these moronic earbud wearers is the reason why I try to stay off the bike paths especially on the weekends which is ironic since the bike paths are suppose to make it safer for cyclists to ride on vs the street!
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Old 10-13-16, 09:53 PM
  #72  
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ok, this thread is totally off the rails now. Closing
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