ViperZ

So after case, batteries, chargers etc, it's more what I got the 200L on sale for...

Knock yourself out and make a few

Cyclist0383

Actually a little further in the thread the guy who said that changed his mind and thought it to be a bit brighter. Either way, the flashlight geeks over at CPF seem to be impressed with it.

Although it isn't ideal for a bike it give a good indication to where LED lighting is going cost and brightness wise. If Fenix decided to enter the bike and SCUBA markets they could own them rather quickly with their low cost/good quality and brightness lights. Hopefully someone will step up to the plate and prices will drop considerably.

ViperZ

You can use a longer self supplied velcro strap to secure the battery case

If a person can't solve that problem themselves, how can you expect to build your whole system from scratch?

ViperZ

Sure enough, all I wanted to point out is state of the art emitters and drivers in the +600 Lumens class still seem relatively expensive.

A person can no doubt cobble together a LED system that is great to awesome, however cost is still a factor even in DIY as you reach for the higher powered units with variable operating modes, and doesn't look like a science fair project.

operator

Oh snap. Back handed comment for the win. The problem is not with the length of the strap - it's with the fact that even when tightly strapped, the pack is still able to move around on the top tube.

Why does the consumer have to jury-rig his own solution to something that should've been 100%, "tried and true" (these are your words) out of the box? I think your love for Dinotte is starting to blind you to any criticism they can face.

Seeing as how the 200L on sale did not include battery, chargers and helmet mount for $99USD, I don't think you have a case here.

ViperZ

Are you upset at me with something outside of this thread to make that Dinotte love statement? Sorry Operator, I didn't mean to insult you or backhand you in anyway as you indicate. Really I meant no harm.

I understand the battery bag may not be perfect, however to gripe about it as if it is a real tangible argument in the context of this thread seems off base. All you have to do is strap the supplied Velcro strap around the bag and frame and it's as secure as any other battery bag I have used. Even on the slippery gloss carbon frame it seems secure enough.






You may have a point there, please build one for the same price and if it works well, I'll be in line to build one too, or buy one from you.

Cyclist0383

^^^^

It seems like you are arguing apples and oranges ViperZ. Folks keep on mentioning ready made flashlights and you keep on mentioning building something from scratch. As it stands the $45 300-400 lumen flashlight is a lot less expensive than the Dinotte, but of course comes with it's on set of problems. I think what operator is trying to say is that there are better values for the money from a pure lumens standpoint than the Dinotte, and I have to agree with him. Both times I've been ready to buy a Dinotte with a little searching I've been able to find a comparable product for less money. They might be great lights, and I even might buy some one day, but right now they seem a little on the pricey side.

ViperZ

Really I'm not arguing anything....

All I did was price out a build using parts that would attain +600 lumens, showing a example of a cost break down to the Operator's original question "Where does most of the cost come from in LED systems? I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics? "


In the original system I spec'ed it would seem the Array+Driver, housing and Batteries are all equally the same expense.

All of a sudden people are on me for some unknown reason just because I said the Cree 3-Mode Regulator isn't for me, and it's $28.27 cost may not place it in the same league as the Cree MR11 at $90.

I agree, the 200L isn't the best thing going for it's retail asking price, there is better bang for buck, however it's still a nice little light.

The 600L on the other hand is one of the best bang for bucks going, I was drawing a cost break down comparison to what it may cost to build something similar, using a similar quality scratch build for pricing, showing where the cost are distributed in regards to the original question... That is all.

Cyclist0383

^^^

The flashlight ViperZ, the flashlight......

ViperZ

Got it I misunderstood, I thought he was refering to the Cree 3-mode part. Sorry....

However he did say "I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics? "

That can cover more than flashlights

znomit

LEDs cost you and I 10$ each for the latest, including worldwide shipping. Last gen a few dollars less. Optics are a buck each from kai if you buy 10.
Lets take a triple cree Q5 setup for 600lm and say wholesale is about $25 then.

Batteries are cheaper than an equivalent halogen system(for same run time, same battery type).
Half the batteries, half the cost. 30$ will get you 4 NiMH AAs and charger. Wholesale 25?

The drivers on DX and kai are around 3$ each. A really good driver from taskled is 30. Lets say 25 wholesale.

Ok, so we have 600lm with an hours run time for 75$.
Cateye make a nice 4aa led light, the el530 for 37$. Its nicely made, has a magnetic switch and supposedly dunk proof, quick release handlebar bracket... Im sure they could design a nice housing and build it all for 25$ since we are already providing the leds and batteries and driver.
So there is your 600lm light. 100$

I am sure the wholesale prices on this stuff will be way less than I have quoted. So there is nothing really expensive parts wise here.
400$ is perhaps a little expensive for a 600lm light. Even with a li-ion battery, 3hrs runtime and super high tech o-ring mount.
BUT... until there are cheap alternatives people will still be buying these, cause not running into things in the dark is worth 400$!

acroy

The engineering & capital equipment needed for production are the expensive parts.

The componenets are cheap.

mrbubbles

I like to chime in here. My setup puts out the same amount of light as the Dinotte 600L, except that I don't have a strobe option (don't need it when the light is that bright).

My setup cost me $80, that was before the Canadian dollar was on par with American dollars.


Total reported lumens by Seoul is 720lm, we all know that's just marketing bs. Realistically, it's probably around 650 if I'm lucky maybe pushing 700.
Runtime is 2.5 hours, up to 60 hours on low with 2650mAH battery. With Li-Ion 7.2V 4000mAH or more, the runtime will be significantly extended.

The good stuff about my setup is I can actually change the beam pattern just by removing the lens and slotting in a different one.

User interface is a lot easier, just a knob to turn and that is it.

The mounting option is very, very good, none of that o-ring crap.


Exact same setup for me today would cost around $60 without the battery.
Cost break-down
- Seoul P4 U-bin $15
- Lens from Kai, $5
- Aluminum, $3
- Fatman driver from Taskled, $27 (cost saving from this can be significant if you manage to find another driver for cheap)
- Potentiometer $2.50
- Power plug $2
- Cube 6AA holder with 9v snap, $1.50

I already have batteries and charger, a 6AA 2AAA NiMH 2500mAH Sanyo package cost $15 from Costco is pretty cheap, and adds just $15 to the whole assembly cost.

There's nothing wrong with people choosing to buy commercial systems, it took me 2-3 hours to build this, and that's not counting the time for gathering the material. For some people, the economics of spending their time to build a system is just not worth it when they can buy a readily made one.

Mr. Fly

I am not sure what this thread is about. Is it a genuine, curious inquiry to how much light parts cost, or a veiled bash at the commercial manufacturers of "boutique" bike lights and their customers? A cursory reading of the two pages thus far indicated to me that it is more of the latter.

I am not sure many of you fully considered the cost of being in business for a small manufacturer like Dinotte. If, as many implied, the analysis for bicycle light cost was so biased towards a healthy profit margin, why don't you consider offering us an alternate, lower-cost solution, that is specially designed for bike use?

One must also consider that more frequently than one would expect, component costs for commercial off-the-shelf products are typically a small fraction of its retail value. Does a US-made custom steel bike really cost $1200 and up, given that the best tube sets are only a couple of hundred dollars? Does a cold-forged name-brand crank really need to cost more than the $5 worth of aluminium it is made of? How many yards of Cordura fabric and commodity nylon parts can one buy for the $80+ charged for a typical messenger bag?

Finally, one should consider whether the premium that was charged over the price of the parts worth the trouble of DIYing. For many, the answer is no as can be seen from the (assumably) profitability of Dinotte and its likes. The value I extracted from my commercial lighting system is high enough for me, that I did not feel the need to critically analyze how much the components cost the manufacturer.

Cyclist0383

^^^

I think the point that some, including myself are getting at is that there are more and more low cost options out there which produce massive amounts of light. Sadly none of these are bicycle specific, but the technology is the same and hopefully someone will step up and produce bike specific lights in these lower price points.

znomit

I think we are just waiting for large scale production of cheaper brighter lights.
The problem is they are still botique builders, not large scale mass production runs which reduce overheads per unit to very little. We want toyotas not feraris.

I wonder how many more bikes we will see out at night in 5 years when we can buy a 400lm light for 50$...?

operator

Yes. If you've ever read my posts, this is as genuine as any of my questions get.

That was actually my next question: if someone could offer their plans for their low cost DIY system (free or not). I'm prepared to eat the "opportunity cost" as I have loads of time to spare after work. I don't have the necessary EE background to design circuit boards/pcb's but I can follow instructions for putting together circuits.

Actually I just went to walmart last night. They were offering 4xAA Nimh's 2500mah + charger for $19.99 canadian. I'm going to guess the wholesale is a bit less. Thanks for the added info.

Sorry no. I'm just a jackass. You can safely ignore me most of the time - my apologies.

ViperZ

Good Post... I'm sure it started off in ernest, however stepped over to the dark side because human nature will dictate that it does

ViperZ

You would think somebody like Cateye, who has been in the mass production market for a long time would be leading the charge, however even they currently charge a premium for their best offerings (Double & Triple Shots) which aren't really at the top of the class either.

ViperZ

NP, same goes for me That was evil VZ that got a hold of the keyboard with reading comprehension problems....

Cyclist0383

True, and it rather makes my point - theFenix LD2 is brighter, has more spill, and better throw that my Cateye DoubleShot and is far cheaper, although it only has half the runtime.

ViperZ

There's that catch again... Everything can always be brighter, however at the expense of run time in a constrained design

I think we need to amend that Bontrager quote for now.

Runtime, bright, cheap...... Pick any two

Cyclist0383

Actually the Fenix is a better design than the Cateye, no wires to deal with, and two and a half hours is a decent runtime.

With the improvements in LEDS and batteries in the next year or two things should be quite even in regards to flashlights and specialized bike lights.

operator

I have a feeling it's going to take more than 2 years for prices to become affordable at the lumens we want.

ericy

I expect that the next change we will see is another doubling of the lumens for a given wattage of LED. Price will probably stay about the same though.