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  1. #76
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    Ziemas just got added to my "ignore list". I don't appreciate his grumpiness and negativity.


  2. #77
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    ^^^

    I'm grumpy and negative because we differ on whether or not a super bright tail light is needed? Um, okay.

  3. #78
    robertlinthicum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Lewis View Post
    The Dinotte tail light always makes drivers give me a wide berth even when its flashing during the day,it's like having eyes in the back of your head . You wouldn't ride in traffic without a helmet I wont ride in traffic without it and it's really easy to slip off when you get to the track.

    Jon
    X1.

    I don't like to do it, but with my Dinotte flasher I will ride on high-speed roadways in a pinch. It gives motorists *lots* of early warning & was worth the $240 I paid for it (NiMh rechargeable).

  4. #79
    robertlinthicum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammyboy View Post
    bright lights in the wrong hands can be a bad thing.
    With Dinotte fronts, a reduced output setting is just a button-push away. (You should see the new European cars around here with the bluish HIDs--you've got to look away, day or night.)

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccd rider View Post
    And I stand by my argument that the lack of clearly defined quantitative evidence that "brightest" is necessarily better than "brighter" makes the whole discussion quite subjective.
    I've personally driven (in a car) behind cyclists using SFs and Dinotte's. There's a huge difference. The Dinotte is so bright that the cyclist automatically gains a level of respect that's normally accorded only to cars (in addition to being visible at a greater distance). Yes it is somewhat blinding and yes it is somewhat painful to look at--but not any moreso than the LED taillights luxury cars are sporting these days. Personally, I was also a skeptic until I saw this for myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccd rider View Post
    And don't try to argue that Dinotte, in magnanimous fashion, put all the "extra cost" into making the light brighter. Really? That much more money?
    Certainly, there's a part of the extra cost that exists as a premium for owning the latest and greatest, but it doesn't mean we're getting cheated. That's the way it's been with consumer electronics for quite some time.
    Quote Originally Posted by ccd rider View Post
    And if you hear of someone who gets hit by a car from behind with Dinotte ablaze, will you simply scoff at the whole notion of it being that someone STILL didn't see them
    If someone got hit from behind and was using the Dinotte, I would rule out the possibility that the driver was looking at the road straight ahead of the car and still did not see the cyclist. In fact, I would conclude that the driver was probably not looking at the road at all (applying makeup, reaching into the backseat, etc.). With the SF, I would be less confident making these conclusions.
    Quote Originally Posted by ccd rider View Post
    I've made my judgment....just like many other judgments from day to day in this scary world we live. I feel very comfortable with my decision.....I guess I just like to argue.
    The SF is an excellent light. I think most Dinotte users were at some point SF users. Myself, I still use an SF for leisurely rides on slower roads. But at night on +40mph roads, I break out the Dinotte. I appreciate being able to modulate my response to the level of risk on the road, instead of tying myself inflexibly to one system for all situations. That's the decision I'm comfortable with (As a sidenote, before the Dinotte, I used twin SFs--which I find to be a good compromise for those who won't buy the Dinotte).

  6. #81
    ROM 6:23 flipped4bikes's Avatar
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    Catfight!

    I own both the Dinotte 140TL and SF. Love them both, the SF running as a secondary/backup to the Dinotte. I REALLY love running the Dinotte during the day. I also run a Dinotte 200L up front, both on some sort of blink pattern. Of course it can be overkill. I have them, and am perfectly comfortable running them during my commute day and night.

    Ultimately, do what's you feel is best for you. My suspicion is that no matter what lights anyone runs here at BF, it's more than a bit of whipping out the ruler and seeing who's bigger, brighter, longer, cheaper, whatever. Not that I need a ruler to prove anything...

    Pfft! -Bill the Cat
    Every time we let a vehicle pass there is a little bit of compromise. But compromise allows the city to function and allows cyclists to function in the city. The trick is not to eliminate compromise but to learn how to work safely within it.

    --Robert Hurst

  7. #82
    Senior Member Inthe10ring's Avatar
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    I was sure that I wanted a Dinotte Tail Light until I passed one at night in a car... There IS such a thing as too much light. It may be a combination of a bright assed light and a poor job aiming the light properly, but it was not safe. The amount of glare on the windshield alone (dirty from camping), made it difficult to maintain my bearings in my lane. I found myself driving by braile as I passed the chap.
    A combination of a PBSF, TL-LD1000 and a blinkie 3 (on the back of my helmet) have served my purpose thus far... Saving my money for other toys...

  8. #83
    The Legitimiser Sammyboy's Avatar
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    I still believe there's such a thing as too much light. I bought the Dinottes, and set them up as below. I think this is unlikely to cause anyone problems.


  9. #84
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    There IS such a thing as too much light. It may be a combination of a bright assed light and a poor job aiming the light properly, but it was not safe. The amount of glare on the windshield alone (dirty from camping), made it difficult to maintain my bearings in my lane. I found myself driving by braile as I passed the chap.
    A DiNotte taillight still puts out far less light than a single car headlight (or a full lightbar on a police car). If your windshield's so dirty that a DiNotte makes it impossible to see through, you'd better hope you don't meet any motor vehicles (or emergency vehicles) Best bet: wash your windshield... most cars have windshield washers nowdays.


    As for me, even if I could get by with a SuperFlash or LD1100 at night, the DiNotte or Nova still hold all the aces in the daytime. Out on the highway, I definitely appreciate being visible from 30+ seconds back, particularly to people who intend to decelerate and make a right turn onto an intersecting highway. So I have no regrets about the DiNotte, or the Nova either.

  10. #85
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    A DiNotte taillight still puts out far less light than a single car headlight (or a full lightbar on a police car). If your windshield's so dirty that a DiNotte makes it impossible to see through, you'd better hope you don't meet any motor vehicles (or emergency vehicles) Best bet: wash your windshield... most cars have windshield washers nowdays.
    Car headlights aren't aimed at the windshields of other cars; they're aimed at the ground. I've read posters on this very board discussing him they would aim their DiNotte taillights directly and intentionally into driver's eyes.

  11. #86
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    Car headlights aren't aimed at the windshields of other cars; they're aimed at the ground.
    I'm sure you've seen what happens when an oncoming car comes over a rise at you. Its headlights are now aimed directly at your windshield. I live in an area with lots of rolling terrain, so this is just a fact of life. If my windshield is so dirty that this is a problem, then I better stay off the road until I get it cleaned, because it's not realistic to expect that no bright lights will evar hit my windshield.

    I've read posters on this very board discussing him they would aim their DiNotte taillights directly and intentionally into driver's eyes.
    And so would I. Take a look at a semi trailer with four Peterson Manufacturing Barracuda taillights, which easily put out double the power of a DiNotte 140R in brake mode. Where are those taillights aimed? Yeah. Straight back at the people who need to see them. Take a look at a police car or highway-patrol car. Where are its light-bar strobes and auxiliary strobes aimed? Yeah, you got it... straight at the people who need to see them.

  12. #87
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    I'm sure you've seen what happens when an oncoming car comes over a rise at you. Its headlights are now aimed directly at your windshield. I live in an area with lots of rolling terrain, so this is just a fact of life. If my windshield is so dirty that this is a problem, then I better stay off the road until I get it cleaned, because it's not realistic to expect that no bright lights will evar hit my windshield.



    And so would I. Take a look at a semi trailer with four Peterson Manufacturing Barracuda taillights, which easily put out double the power of a DiNotte 140R in brake mode. Where are those taillights aimed? Yeah. Straight back at the people who need to see them. Take a look at a police car or highway-patrol car. Where are its light-bar strobes and auxiliary strobes aimed? Yeah, you got it... straight at the people who need to see them.
    Why would you want to be a dick and blind drivers?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    Why would you want to be a dick and blind drivers?
    I agree. Much more effective if you cast a pool of red light on the road behind you.

  14. #89
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    Why would you want to be a dick and blind drivers?
    Blinding drivers with a 140-lumen light? Maybe if I had a >1000-lumen red fog light on the rear, a la some fancy European cars, or, I dunno, a firetruck covered with 50 strobes that all have more power than a DiNotte taillight does. Yeah, we got to do something about those firetrucks. Then there's the setting sun in my eyes... I mean, who does God think He is, anyway?

    OK, so you don't want a DiNotte, you don't think you need one... we get it. But some people do want/need one. I just finished a 60-mile / 96km commute home via state and rural highways, starting at 6PM and finishing at 9:45, and there were plenty of places where I was glad to have "too much" taillight power to help me show up against the setting sun (among other things).

    Having used both the DiNotte and the even more powerful Nova quite a bit, I've received nothing but positive remarks. Strangers opening their window to tell me it was easy to spot me in traffic. Strangers wanting to know what kind of taillight that is / where can they get one. Co-workers giving me enthusiastic reports about how well I show up. And on my ride tonight, the lady in the blue Subaru slowly passing me in downtown Cheney and yelling "NICE LIGHT! " as she went by. You'd think if I were a "dick," as you put it, someone would've said so by now If you do a Forum search for "DiNotte," I think you'll see that other BF members also get compliments for theirs, too.

    I agree. Much more effective if you cast a pool of red light on the road behind you.
    Umm, wrong. In daylight, or anything close to daylight, that's a worthless tactic. Did you think we only use them in the dark?



    And in the dark, you still want it aimed towards the driver, not down. Especially if you have heavy traffic to be seen in...



    What is the real story here, anyway... are you guys worried that you'll be blasted with DiNotte taillights on the MUP, or what? And to answer the question in the original post, yeah, there's something with the power of a DiNotte for less money. A Nova or Whelen baby-sized emergency-vehicle strobe.


    Tangentially, this all reminded me of a guy who came into the bike shop last year, and the manager was showing him taillights. The guy was offended at the SuperFlash. He said the SuperFlash was MUCH too bright, my goodness, only a terribly rude person would ever use one of those! What would people think if he went around blinding people with a SuperFlash?! Fortunately I didn't talk to him in person

  15. #90
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    Blinding drivers with a 140-lumen light?
    Why don't you go set up your 140l light at eye level, back off 20 or 30 meters and tell me if it's blinding.

    A focused LED produces a totally different light and beam pattern from a defused halogen. It's not a fair comparison.

  16. #91
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    Why don't you go set up your 140l light at eye level, back off 20 or 30 meters and tell me if it's blinding.
    I don't think I've ever had a battery-powered light that I didn't examine in that fashion It's powerful, but certainly not blinding when driving a car with about 2500 lumens out the front, or in daylight/twilight. Given the cagers' compliments to me and other BF members, and the fact that they don't actually exhibit any signs of being blinded in the real world, I don't see your hypothesis (it's too intense/bright!) being supported by the empirical evidence. And you know what that means

    A focused LED produces a totally different light and beam pattern from a defused halogen. It's not a fair comparison.
    The DiNotte has a pretty broad flood pattern, actually. It's far less focused than, say, my L2D Premium Q5 (which has, OMG, a blinding 180 lumens). Beam shot:



    Take a look at a police LED deck/dash strobe, some of them have 8 to 16 emitters jammed in there, not just one. And yet, people survive having looked at them, and stuff Here's a sample:


  17. #92
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    I don't think I've ever had a battery-powered light that I didn't examine in that fashion It's powerful, but certainly not blinding when driving a car with about 2500 lumens out the front, or in daylight/twilight. Given the cagers' compliments to me and other BF members, and the fact that they don't actually exhibit any signs of being blinded in the real world, I don't see your hypothesis (it's too intense/bright!) being supported by the empirical evidence. And you know what that means



    The DiNotte has a pretty broad flood pattern, actually. It's far less focused than, say, my L2D Premium Q5 (which has, OMG, a blinding 180 lumens). Beam shot:


    Take a look at a police LED deck/dash strobe, some of them have 8 to 16 emitters jammed in there, not just one. And yet, people survive having looked at them, and stuff Here's a sample:
    You are not an emergency vehicle clearing the roads of traffic to get somewhere quickly. As I'm sure you know, when an emergency vehicle has it's lights on traffic stops.

    When you aim it directly in someones eyes it is blinding. I don't know why you wish to argue that fact. The Fenix is blinding too, which I have both tested myself and been told by a friend. If you wish not to respect drivers by intentionally shining a very bright light in their eyes which you know is blinding don't be surprised when they have a lack of respect toward you. The road is to be shared, at that mean that you must try and respect the others on it.

    It's clear by your attitude and willingness to intentionally shine a very bright light in the eyes of drivers that you somehow think that your right to the road supersedes others. Check out Sammyboy's photos for a picture of respectful use of a very bright light.

  18. #93
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    You are not an emergency vehicle clearing the roads of traffic to get somewhere quickly. As I'm sure you know, when an emergency vehicle has it's lights on traffic stops.
    That's quite incorrect. Haven't you ever seen a police car stopped with its lights on, or a firetruck? Does everyone nearby stop and just sit there? Nope

    When you aim it directly in someones eyes it is blinding. I don't know why you wish to argue that fact.
    I don't agree, and if I hadn't lent out my camera, I'd be happy to shoot some in-vehicle footage to demonstrate that. As a worst-case scenario, here's the Nova in complete darkness, without any of the foreground lighting that a motorist would have: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3cy6KSr8wk It's bright, it's attention-getting, but you'll notice that you (and the camera) have no difficulty seeing past it to the area lit up by the headlight. The Nova has three emitters and I consider it more powerful than the DiNotte.

    The Fenix is blinding too, which I have both tested myself and been told by a friend. If you wish not to respect drivers by intentionally shining a very bright light in their eyes which you know is blinding don't be surprised when they have a lack of respect toward you. The road is to be shared, at that mean that you must try and respect the others on it.

    It's clear by your attitude and willingness to intentionally shine a very bright light in the eyes of drivers that you somehow think that your right to the road supersedes others. Check out Sammyboy's photos for a picture of respectful use of a very bright light.
    Feel free to explain why everyone I've talked to about my taillights says only good things like "NICE LIGHT," that I showed up well on the road and was easy to see, and where did I get it / where can they get one It's clear that you've already picked out your position, and don't intend to be deterred by mere facts and evidence, so... whatever dude That's trolling, in my book, so you may get added to another Ignore list if you insist on keeping it up.

  19. #94
    The Fenix Shillboy varuscelli's Avatar
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    Wow, I hadn't realized how controversial this subject had become!

    Think I'll just watch from the safety of the stands.

    Ringside!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by varuscelli; 06-29-08 at 06:32 PM.

  20. #95
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    Feel free to explain why everyone I've talked to about my taillights says only good things like "NICE LIGHT," that I showed up well on the road and was easy to see, and where did I get it / where can they get one It's clear that you've already picked out your position, and don't intend to be deterred by mere facts and evidence, so... whatever dude That's trolling, in my book, so you may get added to another Ignore list if you insist on keeping it up.
    Trolling because I don't think it's cool to intentionally shine a bright light in someones eyes? You like to blather on about cop lights and all sorts of other non-sense, but what about the driver who posted about being blinded by a Dinotte taillight? Is that suddenly immaterial?

    I love it how there is a group of cyclists who complain about the lack of respect they get on the road and then feel the need to retaliate. If you intentionally shine a 140l LED light in a drivers eyes you are just as disrespectful as the worst drivers out there.

    Why do you think Dinotte recommends pointing their taillight down?
    http://www.dinottelighting.com/manua...nstruction.pdf

  21. #96
    sic transit gloria mundi rfomenko's Avatar
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    Dinotte rear light

    I point it down at night & keep it level during the day. I doubt it can blind the drivers when it's sunny outside. This way everyone is happy, lol.
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  22. #97
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    but what about the driver who posted about being blinded by a Dinotte taillight?
    As he himself said, the problem was that he'd left his windshield dirty, making it difficult to see through it when it was hit by a strong source of light. The solution to that problem is (dare I say) blindingly obvious: clean the windshield. On my car, that involves pushing on the end of the turn-signal stalk with my finger. If I didn't, I'd have no one to blame but myself for my negligence.

    As I mentioned before, there's some self-righteous guy in our area who's adamant that a Planet Bike SuperFlash is "blinding" and grossly irresponsible to be using in public. Are you going to point your LD1100 down at the ground, since it's even more powerful than a SuperFlash? I didn't think so. You can't go through life fretting that some loud-mouthed, self-appointed critic on the Internet disapproves of something, or you'll be paralyzed.

    If you were talking about MUP usage, then I'd say you had a point. A DiNotte 140R is out of place on an MUP, for reasons that ought to be self-explanatory (no motor vehicles, lack of rear-collision danger, very little speed differential by anyone overtaking you, and people with weak or non-existent lights who are relying on night-adapted vision in an unlighted environment, etc). In that scenario, I'd use a low-powered taillight on steady-burn. But I avoid MUPs like the plague. Out on the highways, on city arterials, and in downtown traffic, it's a different situation.

    If you intentionally shine a 140l LED light in a drivers eyes you are just as disrespectful as the worst drivers out there.
    The cagers in my area don't seem to agree with you, judging by the praise they've heaped on my Nova and DiNotte so far. Deal with it.

  23. #98
    Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped. BarracksSi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    As he himself said, the problem was that he'd left his windshield dirty, making it difficult to see through it when it was hit by a strong source of light. The solution to that problem is (dare I say) blindingly obvious: clean the windshield. On my car, that involves pushing on the end of the turn-signal stalk with my finger. If I didn't, I'd have no one to blame but myself for my negligence.
    +1 A dirty windshield is the sign of a stupid, ignorant, unsafe driver.

    If you were talking about MUP usage, then I'd say you had a point. A DiNotte 140R is out of place on an MUP, for reasons that ought to be self-explanatory (no motor vehicles, lack of rear-collision danger, very little speed differential by anyone overtaking you, and people with weak or non-existent lights who are relying on night-adapted vision in an unlighted environment, etc). In that scenario, I'd use a low-powered taillight on steady-burn. But I avoid MUPs like the plague. Out on the highways, on city arterials, and in downtown traffic, it's a different situation.
    The good thing about Dinotte's taillight mount is that it's easy to tweak its aim while on the move. It's basically a friction mount rather than something you'd screw down, and it stays put unless you decide to move it. I've switched mine to its dim setting and aimed it nearly at the rear wheel, then swung it back to level once I got back onto the streets.

  24. #99
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    As I mentioned before, there's some self-righteous guy in our area who's adamant that a Planet Bike SuperFlash is "blinding" and grossly irresponsible to be using in public. Are you going to point your LD1100 down at the ground, since it's even more powerful than a SuperFlash? I didn't think so. You can't go through life fretting that some loud-mouthed, self-appointed critic on the Internet disapproves of something, or you'll be paralyzed.
    What a paranoid delusion. Millions of people safely commute every day with a Dinotte tailight and somehow make it home safely with all limbs working.

    I'll post this again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    There is a small minority of almost paranoid posters here who claim that if you don't have the absolutely brightest light you are in grave danger. The funny thing about this is that before the Dinotte came out the 'I must have the absolutely brightest light' crowd warned of imminent danger if one didn't have the NiteRider tail light, as it was the brightest at the time.

    Then the Dinotte came out and the 'I must have the absolutely brightest light' suddenly warned of imminent danger if one didn't have the Dinotte tail light. Suddenly the Nite Rider light that was a 'life saver' was down right dangerous because there was something brighter on the market.

    Some time in the future something brighter than the Dinotte will come along and we'll hear from the 'I must have the absolutely brightest light' crowd of the imminent danger we are putting ourselves in if we don't use this new light.

    If you like really bright lights, great use them, (hell, I have a collection of really bright flashlights, so I can see the fun in futzing around with bright lights) but don't go around trying to scare people that horrible things will happen unless they have the brightest light possible. Many of the taillights on the market like the Cateye TL-1100 and the SuperFlash are extremely visible to drivers.

    I've even seen posts here by people saying that they want to hit drivers square in the eyes to BLIND them with their Dinotte taillights. Take these folks with a grain of salt.



    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    The cagers in my area don't seem to agree with you, judging by the praise they've heaped on my Nova and DiNotte so far. Deal with it.
    I'm very happy that I don't need to deal with inconsiderate people like yourself who don't take others into account and somehow feel that they have the right not to respect others because of their own fears. I can't wait to see you gush all over the next brightest light.

  25. #100
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarracksSi View Post
    +1 A dirty windshield is the sign of a stupid, ignorant, unsafe driver.
    Wow, in a perfect world we'd all have a clean windshield. But guess we should take that into account since it's not a perfect world......


    Quote Originally Posted by BarracksSi View Post
    The good thing about Dinotte's taillight mount is that it's easy to tweak its aim while on the move. It's basically a friction mount rather than something you'd screw down, and it stays put unless you decide to move it. I've switched mine to its dim setting and aimed it nearly at the rear wheel, then swung it back to level once I got back onto the streets.
    So it is blinding. Thanks for clearing that up.

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