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  1. #551
    Senior Member Kingshead's Avatar
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    At $8.99 what's there to lose, I'll judge for myself and report later what I found.

    Found 2 lights on ebay that may be the one you're talking about.

    This one looks ok.


    This one looks like dog............
    Last edited by Kingshead; 11-20-11 at 03:00 AM.
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  2. #552
    "LOGIC!" lopek77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingshead View Post
    At $8.99 what's there to lose, I'll judge for myself and report later what I found.

    Found 2 lights on ebay that may be the one you're talking about.

    This one looks ok.


    This one looks like dog............
    $8.99! ;-) front and rear light is a piece of crap... The red/black torch is just perfect... I have 5 of these and I was very happy with it. I use one as a backup now...After few months of using it, it wasn't enough light for me anymore. I believe that around 900 lumens is what you need, and 250-300 lumens is an absolute minimum when dark (It wont cut through other cars lights or even some street lights...)
    Last edited by lopek77; 11-20-11 at 09:31 AM.
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  3. #553
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingshead View Post
    Apparently you didn't read my post or you would have read about my experience with rechargeables in a toy train, it was a disaster, and a waste of a lot of money.
    I read your anecdote, but noted that it was totally contrary to my own experience with many different motorized devices, with rehargeables performing far better (and being far cheaper) than alkalines.

    The main exception would be poorly designed devices that require voltages higher than 1.4 volts to function -- but even these stop working when the alkalines are slightly discharged. (The other exception would be devices that use very very little current -- TV remotes, for example, where the self-discharge rate becomes dominant.)

    The new LED lights use voltage regulation but continually running them with low voltage will shorten it's lifespan.
    So, 90,000 hours rather than 100,000 hours? I'll take the risk, but I'd still like to see your citation.

    And just what do you think the discharge curve of an alkaline looks like? Do you think it's flat? According to the curves given at here it looks like alkalines drop off significantly faster than NiMH cells, especially at high discharge rates. If your light really does use 5 watts with AAA batteries (about 1 amp), the discharge curve is likely roughly comparable to a 2 amp rate with AA batteries (the cells are twice the size) -- and it's under 1.0 volts quite quickly. If you're really worried about wearing out your voltage regulator with lower voltages, maybe AAA alkalines aren't the way to go either -- their voltage is only higher for a small portion of their lifetime for high discharges. (Unless you buy the much more expensive "lithium" alkalines, of course -- which do better but cost 2-3x as much.)

    I don't want to argue about this but as my life's work has been dedicated to electricity (Electronics Engineer, Master Electrician since 1987, College professor teaching Industrial Electricity, etc) I'll overlook your thinking I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not going to get into the technical aspects, it's just not that important.
    It's never a good sign when somebody has to resort to listing their educational credentials to support their argument -- it tends to indicate that their argument can't stand on it's own.

    I'll leave my education out of it, but my life's hobby (R/C planes) has intimately involved batteries (especially once I went with electrics about ten years ago) for nearly as long as your career. And I've had lots of toys and devices that used batteries over the decades. My experience disagrees with yours, including my experience with bicycle lights.

    I've most likely worn out more rechargeable handtools than you've ever seen
    Ha! The old "I've forgotten more X than you ever knew!" argument.
    so I'm no stranger to how they work. Their design takes into account the voltage the supplied batteries output, and the new Lithium Ions drop off rate is outstanding, but the older Ni Cads run longer and have a longer useful lifespan.
    If by lifespan you mean how many years until the battery pack has lost most of it's capacity, then maybe.

    But beyond that, per unit mass, lithium ion/lithium polymer cells contain significantly more energy than NiCds, and the good modern ones have significantly lower internal resistance. (I've got a LiPo pack right here that's rated up to 70C! It weighs less than one pound, and can put out 2000 watts -- for a little less than a minute.)

    If the power tool maker takes advantage of this to put in a smaller battery, that's nice, but it doesn't mean that NiCd is superior to LiPo. Your anecdote doesn't qualify as scientific data.

    Try putting a higher voltage rechargeable into your hand drill and see how much faster it runs.
    Yes, unloaded motor speed is roughly proportional to voltage. This has little to do with the brightness of lights, however.

    But initial voltage is only one part of the discharge curve.

    Numbers don't lie, do the math, 20% less voltage is still 20% less voltage no matter how you want to spin it.
    But, as I said already, it's *not* 20% less voltage. Try 7%. Alkalines start at 1.5 volts. NiMH starts at 1.4 volts.

    And again, at high discharge rates (over 1C), alkalines drop down below 1.0 volts very quickly where NiMH cells do better.

    In short, you're largely wrong about rechargeable batteries.

  4. #554
    Senior Member Kingshead's Avatar
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    I own an Electrical contracting business and we were quick to jump on the LI wagon with disastrous results. 50% of the batteries from Dewalt failed to accept a charge within the first month, none lasted more than 3.

    I own several Rigid rechargeable tools running NiCads that came with a lifetime battery replacement guarantee and 6yrs later we still can’t kill them. These tools have seen abuse you can’t even imagine with 362 days/yr service. No other battery has come close, and we’ve tried them all over the last 21yrs.

    This comes from Sanyo's own testing lab, as you can see the batteries drop to just above 1.2 volts almost immediately, maybe you will accept their own literature. This is a waste of time and energy better used for riding, have fun.

    The voltage makes the difference

    One of the main features of eneloop is the higher voltage level. Many applications switch off or show the low battery signal if the voltage is lower than 1,1 Volt. A traditional NiMh battery will lose its voltage constantly and runs under this critical level very soon. eneloop however will keep the voltage level over 1,1 Volt for a long time, and only just before becoming empty will fall under that limit. That's one of the reasons why you can take more photos with eneloop than with a 2700 mAh battery.


    www.eneloop.info/home/performance-details/voltage.html</SPAN>


    Last edited by Kingshead; 11-20-11 at 07:55 PM.
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  5. #555
    Super Moderator no1mad's Avatar
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    Okay, y'all need to table this 'discussion' over cell chemistry pronto. This ain't the thread for it.
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  6. #556
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingshead View Post
    This comes from Sanyo's own testing lab, as you can see the batteries drop to just above 1.2 volts almost immediately, maybe you will accept their own literature.
    Yes, the discharge curves I gave showed similar results. (Are you replying to me or to Kingshead?)

    But as for the alkaline vs. NiMH (eneloop or not) argument, note that alkalines drop even faster than NiMH cells do at high discharge rates. For example, at 2 amps with AA cells, their best non-"lithium" cell was down under 1.0 volts after about nine minutes, and totally dead after about 35 minutes. Their non-eneloop NiMH cell was down to 1.2 volts very quickly (just a few minutes), but took about 54 minutes to get down to 1.0 volt, and was dead after about 65 minutes. Looking at your chart (which has the same 2 amp discharge rate and seems to also cover AA batteries, very convenient) it took 42 minutes to get down to 1.2 volts, and was dead in about 55 minutes.

    At high discharge rates (1C or so), NiMH (and especially Eneloop NiMH) cells will provide higher voltages than non-"lithium" alkalines for the vast majority of their discharge curves. And will cost and waste less.

    If one really still needs more light and thinks that the extra 7% initial voltage of an alkaline is what makes the difference, I'd suggest getting a second light, or a brighter light. Or maybe getting those NiZn rechargeable cells that start out at 1.8 volts or so (which hopefully isn't so much as to fry things.) (Though I have no experience with these cells.)

    This is a waste of time and energy better used for riding, have fun
    Kid duty, makes going out for a ride hard but sitting on the computer easy.

    As for your lithium ion tool experiences, hopefully things have improved since. The only lithium ion tools I have are a dremel (it's every bit as good as the plug in version) and a screwdriver (which is fine, but not remarkable.) I've got a few NiCd tools too and they're fine, though the dremels are anemic. (But that doesn't mean that NiCd is better than Li-ion, just that they didn't give it enough NiCd cells or pick the ideal motor for the cells chosen.)

    I do have some of the Dewalt power packs -- for a time, they were the cheapest way to get batteries for R/C planes, buy a pack and tear it apart. But they never performed nearly as well as the dedicated R/C packs, and now the R/C packs have come down in price enough that it's cheaper to just buy them.

    NiCd cells certainly do handle abuse better than NiMH or Li-ion cells, and weight isn't so important with power tools (as opposed to say a model airplane), so it makes sense to keep using them in power tools, especially the heavy duty ones that would be used lots every day.

  7. #557
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Here's a comparison of NiMH and alkaline in the same light. Lumens and runtime are plotted. As you can see, NiMH wins hands down.






  8. #558
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    Here's a comparison of NiMH and alkaline in the same light. Lumens and runtime are plotted. As you can see, NiMH wins hands down.
    Nice. Looks like this particular light (Fenix L2D CE) uses two AA cells and is rated at 135, 80, 40 and 9 lumens -- so it looks like the Y axis is lux, not lumens. (Not that this changes the graphs at all, only the units.)

    Just how well the E2 lithiums perform is quite interesting too. But I'll stick with rechargeables for my bright/commonly used lights -- the cost savings is quite substantial.

  9. #559
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Nice. Looks like this particular light (Fenix L2D CE) uses two AA cells and is rated at 135, 80, 40 and 9 lumens -- so it looks like the Y axis is lux, not lumens. (Not that this changes the graphs at all, only the units.)

    Just how well the E2 lithiums perform is quite interesting too. But I'll stick with rechargeables for my bright/commonly used lights -- the cost savings is quite substantial.
    Jaa, the E2s are quite expensive. Rechargables win hands down.

  10. #560
    Hills! speedlever's Avatar
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    Very interesting discussion. Thanks for the good info and graphs.

  11. #561
    Senior Member Kingshead's Avatar
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    This graph, which shows the disposable producing more light (for the first hr) as I said, would also be more illuminating (pun intended) if it included rechargeables after 1, 2, 5, 10, 50, 100, etc charges (if they still functioned at all that is). This is the only way cost per use could be realistically analyzed. Considering the eneloops cost 6 times the price not including the charger, then factor in the run time loss with each subsequent charge it might suprise you.
    Last edited by Kingshead; 11-20-11 at 08:12 PM.
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  12. #562
    Super Moderator no1mad's Avatar
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    Seriously?!? The two of you have a running feud over the same subject in two of the sticky threads here! Threads have been locked because of 'debates' like this one. I don't want these community threads to be locked from future users. Take it to Trollheim or the Chat Room or even Xanadu for all I care, but quit this bickering.
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  13. #563
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1mad View Post
    Seriously?!? The two of you have a running feud over the same subject in two of the sticky threads here! Threads have been locked because of 'debates' like this one. I don't want these community threads to be locked from future users. Take it to Trollheim or the Chat Room or even Xanadu for all I care, but quit this bickering.
    The important thing is that bad info isn't out there unchallenged. That does a disservice to all who are looking for helpful info.

  14. #564
    I am a caffine girl colleen c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    The important thing is that bad info isn't out there unchallenged. That does a disservice to all who are looking for helpful info.
    I agree with this. When it comes to <$50 light system, there is an overlap in the window dealing with the choice of standard Alkaline AA, rechargeable battery and LiIon where unlike high power light system where LiIon is standard. These info are good for a first time buyer who is deciding on which system to pick. Unlike other abstract debate, this one is more contrete with facts that support the claim.
    Last edited by colleen c; 11-21-11 at 08:02 AM. Reason: Added clarification.
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  15. #565
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingshead View Post
    This graph, which shows the disposable producing more light (for the first hr) as I said, would also be more illuminating (pun intended) if it included rechargeables after 1, 2, 5, 10, 50, 100, etc charges (if they still functioned at all that is). This is the only way cost per use could be realistically analyzed. Considering the eneloops cost 6 times the price not including the charger, then factor in the run time loss with each subsequent charge it might suprise you.
    OK, given that eneloops work significantly better the first time (longer life, more light during that life) and cost 6x as much as cheap alkalines (a 4 pack of eneloops costs $10, with a 4 pack of name-brand alkalines being about $4 and a cheap pack about $2 (but we'll assume a sale and bring that down to $1.50) and assuming that you already have a charger, the eneloops only need to work six times without significant degradation to beat the alkalines -- anything after that is gravy.

    And in my ample experience with them, they work at least many dozens of times without any noticeable reductions in capacity or capabilities. The manufacturers claim hundreds of cycles, and I have no reason to doubt these figures.

    I don't keep track of the number of cycles on my loose cells like I do the battery packs I use for my R/C planes, but I've bought a bunch of eneloops and clones (perhaps 40 cells?) for all my gadgets, lights, toys, controllers, etc., starting a few years ago, and I have not noticed any reductions in capacity, and only one cell has failed (and that was due to accidental abuse rather than any failure with the cell.)

    And before that I had regular NiMH cells, and indeed many of them have since worn out over the years -- but it did take years and probably hundreds of cycles. But now I only buy the low self discharge rate batteries (like the eneloops) -- they're better and only cost a little more.

    You aren't really trying to argue that alkalines are cheaper than rechargeables in the long run, are you?
    Last edited by dougmc; 11-21-11 at 12:43 PM.

  16. #566
    Senior Member Kingshead's Avatar
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    Purchased a charger and 4 batteries, should arrive in a few weeks. I'll run some experiments and let you know the outcome. One way or another one of us will gain some insight, it's a win win.
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  17. #567
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingshead View Post
    Purchased a charger and 4 batteries, should arrive in a few weeks. I'll run some experiments and let you know the outcome. One way or another one of us will gain some insight, it's a win win.
    Excellent. I think you'll be surprised by how newer rechargables perform. Exactly which batteries and charger did you get?

  18. #568
    Senior Member Kingshead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    Excellent. I think you'll be surprised by how newer rechargables perform. Exactly which batteries and charger did you get?
    The eneloop AA's and AAA's. Will try them in different devices to see how they perform in different equipment. I'll run tests at different charge intervals to include amperage draw of the charger to include power consumption per charge. I'm rooting for the rechargeables believe it or not, this is the whole reason I adopted them so many yrs ago only to be let down, hope it doesn't happen again.
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  19. #569
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingshead View Post
    The eneloop AA's and AAA's. Will try them in different devices to see how they perform in different equipment. I'll run tests at different charge intervals to include amperage draw of the charger to include power consumption per charge. I'm rooting for the rechargeables believe it or not, this is the whole reason I adopted them so many yrs ago only to be let down, hope it doesn't happen again.
    I had the same experience years ago, and was quite surprised when I switched to modern rechargables. The lack of massive self-discharge is a huge step forward.

    On a side note, are you familiar with the Maha 9000 charger? It's for AA/AAA and lets the user select the current input, amongst many other things. It's a great little charger for properly charging cells and extending their life. http://www.mahaenergy.com/store/view...r=features#mid

  20. #570
    Senior Member Kingshead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    I had the same experience years ago, and was quite surprised when I switched to modern rechargables. The lack of massive self-discharge is a huge step forward.

    On a side note, are you familiar with the Maha 9000 charger? It's for AA/AAA and lets the user select the current input, amongst many other things. It's a great little charger for properly charging cells and extending their life. http://www.mahaenergy.com/store/view...r=features#mid
    The problem wasn't self discharging, it was their lower voltage output, so we'll see.

    Looked at many chargers, some costing hundreds of dollars. Purchased the basic Sanyo charger until the batteries prove themselves to be of value.
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  21. #571
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingshead View Post
    The problem wasn't self discharging, it was their lower voltage output, so we'll see.
    In high discharge situations (say over 1 A for AAs), their voltages will typically be higher than that of alkalines rather than lower.

    The self discharge is indeed a pretty big problem. I'm not saying it was *your* problem, but after a month NiMH cells would be nearly dead. NiCd cells could last a few months, and the low self discharge rate batteries (sold as "precharged") like the Eneloops are good for six months and beyond.

    Looked at many chargers, some costing hundreds of dollars. Purchased the basic Sanyo charger until the batteries prove themselves to be of value.
    Hundreds of dollars? I'm not aware of any consumer chargers for loose cells that cost that much -- though I haven't gone looking for them either. Even the good R/C chargers typically don't cost that much . In any event, Ziema's suggestion of the Maha MH-C9000 charger is a good one.

    But any of the basic chargers will work, though the cheap ones only turn off based on a timer, not on how charged the battery is. If the battery starts getting warm and the charge rate isn't particularly high, that probably means it's fully charged and it's time to turn it off. Overcharging a little at a low rate won't hurt the batteries, but if it's done over and over and over it will begin to degrade their performance.

  22. #572
    Senior Member Kingshead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Hundreds of dollars? I'm not aware of any consumer chargers for loose cells that cost that much -- though I haven't gone looking for them either. Even the good R/C chargers typically don't cost that much . In any event, Ziema's suggestion of the Maha MH-C9000 charger is a good one.

    .
    Ansmann Professional 16 Battery Charger

    SKU: 5907039
    Price: $645.00
    Sale Price: $579.99
    In Stock





    This model below is for 9 volt batteries.

    Ansmann Professional 8 Battery Charger
    Price: $655.00
    Sale Price: $587.99
    Last edited by Kingshead; 11-24-11 at 02:07 PM.
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  23. #573
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingshead View Post
    Ansmann Professional 16 Battery Charger

    SKU: 5907039
    Price: $645.00
    Sale Price: $579.99
    In Stock



    This model is for 9 volt batteries.


    Ansmann Professional 8 Battery Charger
    Price: $655.00
    Sale Price: $587.99
    The model for AA/AAA is around $60, not $600....... http://www.amazon.com/Ansmann-540702.../dp/B00017LRCM http://www.horizonbattery.com/batter...y-charger.html

  24. #574
    Senior Member Kingshead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    Totally different charger and not in the same league. Posted these to show there are megabuck chargers as I stated in an earlier post which was questioned.

    www.horizonbattery.com/ansmann-horizon

    Then click on "Battry Chargers" and a list of all their chargers will appear.
    Last edited by Kingshead; 11-24-11 at 02:05 PM.
    http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/a...ikeforum-1.jpg
    1980 Motobecane Grand Jubile'

    Welcome to the horde!
    Martin

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    Blackburn Mars Click Voyager 2.0 Combo Kit - $35.00 at my LBS. Very bright, very effective. The headlight acts as a "be seen light" and a light to help you see. The tail light is bright and just as effective.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. - Jiddu Krishnamurti

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