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  1. #26
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    So what's YOUR qualifications for questioning MY credibility regarding lighting technology and group riding experience? It's SO easy to type a few words of criticism, but without background they're as empty as the ramblings of a drunk at the bar.

  2. #27
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert View Post
    So what's YOUR qualifications for questioning MY credibility regarding lighting technology and group riding experience? It's SO easy to type a few words of criticism, but without background they're as empty as the ramblings of a drunk at the bar.
    Enough...more than enough.

  3. #28
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    You want another beer?

  4. #29
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Sorry, I don't drink...but knock yourself out...after a few more you can sleep it off and you'll feel much better.

  5. #30
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert View Post
    Hey Ziemas, learn how to read! I recommend against putting high poweered headlights on HELMETS, not against using them. I recommend against TOO MUCH light, and I'll add blinking headlights (which only paranoid cyclists use, and for no good reason).

    TOO MUCH headlight is inconsiderate to everyone comming toward you, other bicyclists included, and dangerous to everyone they encounter while temporarily blinded. Not ALL cyclists using high powered headlights adjust them propeerly. Just like not all helmet wearers adjust THEM properly.

    I don't care whether you like my recommendation or not. My words are for those who CAN comprehend my points and aren't blinded by their own paranoia about getting hit from the front. Nor do I care about the opinion of a pseudo-"scientist" who demonstrates his ignorance about light in general as he pontificates about it. Perhaps he should read a bit longer on the Wikipedia before posting such wordy drivel.
    How much is too much light? If we go by the 'claimed' light output of the P7 emitter, you are running 900 lumens. That's serious light. If we go by the more realistic estimate of users (I happen to be one of them), it's closer to 500 lumens. Still a serious light output. If you are soooo concerned about blinding other drivers (we'll save discussing your own paranoia for another day), why aren't you using a lower power light? It is highly hypocritical of you to claim that a bicyclist can use 'TOO MUCH light' and then turn around and use one that gets the biggest bang for the buck available.

    Most cyclists are going to aim their light properly. It makes little, or no, sense to spend money and carry the weight of a lighting system and then aim it down the road so that it doesn't illuminate where you are riding.

    Finally, for someone who is an 'expert on light' you have certainly presented your self in a very unprofessional manner. You have offered no counter arguments to what I have said. All we get out of you is a bunch of non sequiturs and the electronic equivalent of sticking your tongue out. If I have said something in error...according to you everything I have said is in error...then show me what is wrong and I'll learn from it. I'm not so hide bound that I can't learn. But don't call me a pseudo-"scientist" unless you are willing to back up the claim. If you are truly an 'expert', you know what kind of charge that is. One could even say that that rises to the level of violating forum rules.
    Stuart Black
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  6. #31
    Air conditioned Hippie ebonyresearch's Avatar
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    wow...this thread got interesting fast. so to the original poster...where did they pass a light law? If I understand you correctly. Interesting that a city council would pass such a law.

  7. #32
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebonyresearch View Post
    wow...this thread got interesting fast. so to the original poster...where did they pass a light law? If I understand you correctly. Interesting that a city council would pass such a law.
    Many states and municipalities (most?) have light laws. Most of them that I've seen require lights that can be seen from 500 feet or some other distance. I suspect that these guys were just wanting to be more specific. A little misguided but their hearts are in the right place.
    Stuart Black
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  8. #33
    Air conditioned Hippie ebonyresearch's Avatar
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    So police are riding around with photo sensors, or what, seems some people will make a law about anything. Although If I had a light I would laugh if I got a ticket for it not being bright enough. I can just imagine the court room debate over the math of the law being based on the electrical consumption rather than the lumen output. That would be a pretty barney police officer.

  9. #34
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebonyresearch View Post
    So police are riding around with photo sensors, or what, seems some people will make a law about anything. Although If I had a light I would laugh if I got a ticket for it not being bright enough. I can just imagine the court room debate over the math of the law being based on the electrical consumption rather than the lumen output. That would be a pretty barney police officer.
    It would be better if they were to use lumen output but the general population isn't familiar with that term (I wasn't really until a few years ago). They are familiar with wattage (even when used incorrectly) because that's how bulbs have been sold forever.
    Stuart Black
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  10. #35
    Seņor Member ericy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    It would be better if they were to use lumen output but the general population isn't familiar with that term (I wasn't really until a few years ago). They are familiar with wattage (even when used incorrectly) because that's how bulbs have been sold forever.
    But let's say that someone was riding with a cheap flashlight strapped to their handlebar. How would you know how many lumens or watts the thing puts out. Most aren't labeled or marked at all.

    The old standard of 1-watt probably meant about 15 lumens or so, and virtually any LED flashlight will far exceed this. So perhaps they shouldn't be specifying a minimum lighting level at all, and just require that people have a light of some sort.

  11. #36
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericy View Post
    But let's say that someone was riding with a cheap flashlight strapped to their handlebar. How would you know how many lumens or watts the thing puts out. Most aren't labeled or marked at all.

    The old standard of 1-watt probably meant about 15 lumens or so, and virtually any LED flashlight will far exceed this. So perhaps they shouldn't be specifying a minimum lighting level at all, and just require that people have a light of some sort.
    I agree that just about any LED will exceed what wastan's city council had in mind. It would be better if all lights had a lumen output on them rather than a wattage rating. It does tell you more information about what you are getting...at least for some unspecified distance away from the light source. Lux would be even better since it tells you more about how much light you are getting where. But people in the US, at least, are very slow to adopt ways of measuring things. Look at how resistant they are to the metric system

    And if a specific lumen output on bicycle lights were required, it would probably as ridiculously low as the 1 watt minimum.
    Stuart Black
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  12. #37
    Senior Member duppie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericy View Post
    But let's say that someone was riding with a cheap flashlight strapped to their handlebar. How would you know how many lumens or watts the thing puts out. Most aren't labeled or marked at all.
    That is exactly why a number of European countries have established standards for lighting. Light manufacturers need to test that their light adhere to that standard and then are allowed to mark their lights as compliant. You can get ticketed if you use a non-compliant light.
    Duppie
    Last edited by duppie; 10-06-09 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Removed the statement about German bike lights law,since it was incorrect

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    It would be better if all lights had a lumen output on them rather than a wattage rating. It does tell you more information about what you are getting...at least for some unspecified distance away from the light source. Lux would be even better since it tells you more about how much light you are getting where. .
    Lumen measurement has NOTHING to do with "distance away from the light source". It's the total light emitted over time. Lux is the measurement that's distance dependant, as light in a diverging beam looks dimmer because it's spread out more.

    And to digress a bit, your use of a laser beam to illustrate light divergence was ridiculous because lasers typically diverge around 0.05 degrees, and light from bike headlights diverge around 15-20 degrees. Here's another incorrect statement: "If a laser beam were the same size from emitter to a target 50 or 60 feet away, we probably couldn't see it." Really?!? Care to be the subject of that experiment?

  14. #39
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    The bar must have opened...the drunks are back.

  15. #40
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    That's just a PERSONAL attack, against the TOC, and demonstrates your inability to add anything on topic in this thread.

  16. #41
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Hmm, if you take a general statement as a personal attack, perhaps you need another drink.

  17. #42
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    It's that kind of malicious disregard for what was said just a couple of posts up that demonstrates your disrespect for the terms of conduct here and your lack of integrity.

  18. #43
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    The only personal attacks I see are coming from you, pal. Keep em coming, tho.

    While you are at it, how about sharing with the other kids in the class what determines the divergence of a laser beam...or indeed any beam of light? Then you can apologize to Stu. Thanks, HAND.

  19. #44
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert
    So what's YOUR qualifications for questioning MY credibility regarding lighting technology and group riding experience? It's SO easy to type a few words of criticism, but without background they're as empty as the ramblings of a drunk at the bar.
    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert
    "It is best to keep your mouth shut and be presumed ignorant than to open it and remove all doubt."
    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert
    You want another beer?
    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert
    Hey, Ziemas, learn how to read!
    You know, it's that kind of malicious disregard for what was said just a couple of posts up that demonstrates your disrespect for the terms of conduct here and your lack of integrity.

    If you're going to dish it, be prepared to take it.
    Last edited by DrPete; 10-06-09 at 12:02 PM.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  20. #45
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    1. He still hasn't mentioned his qualifications to criticize me.
    2. A recommendation. Take it or leave it.
    3. A clarification, as he obviously misinterpreted what I wrote.

    I can take it if it is on topic and not gibberish as in post #43.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert View Post
    1. He still hasn't mentioned his qualifications to criticize me.
    2. A recommendation. Take it or leave it.
    3. A clarification, as he obviously misinterpreted what I wrote.

    I can take it if it is on topic and not gibberish as in post #43.
    Only those with qualifications you approve can criticize your rants?


  22. #47
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Get an old incandescent pen light like this
    ...
    and you'll probably be 2 watts over the 1 watt minimum or at about 45 lumens.
    There is no way those simple incandescent pen lights are 45 lumens or 3 watts. They're usually powered by a single AAA cell and last a few hours? 1000 mAh x 1.5 volts = only about 1.5 watt hours, divided by 2 hours, that's less than a watt (and the power goes down as the battery discharges), and the bulb isn't very efficient so it's probably a good deal less than 15 lumens.
    90 lumens is hardly sufficient. More is always better
    90 lumens more than sufficient, as long as it's focused appropriately.

    I'm not saying that more isn't better, but my Planet Bike 1w Blaze puts out something like 45 lumens, and it's sufficient. It's not awesome, but it's adequate for the roads. It only really becomes inadequate when my night vision is ruined by an oncoming car.

    (Just for the record, I do have several brighter lights -- a 135 lumen Cygo-Lite, 400 lumen P7 flashlight, 900 lumen Magicshine. They beat the Blaze handily, but even so, the Blaze is adequate.)

    Ultimately, if they wanted to make a law, they should have based it on lumens rather than watts.

  23. #48
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert View Post
    1. He still hasn't mentioned his qualifications to criticize me.
    2. A recommendation. Take it or leave it.
    3. A clarification, as he obviously misinterpreted what I wrote.

    I can take it if it is on topic and not gibberish as in post #43.
    Excuse me, but as the person claiming to be an expert, I don't think we've seen your resume yet, along with references we may contact to verify. So bout all you need to know about me until then is what I have already told you: enough. Indeed, you still haven't managed to answer my question...after which I expect an apology to Cyccommute.

  24. #49
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    <crickets>

  25. #50
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert View Post
    Lumen measurement has NOTHING to do with "distance away from the light source". It's the total light emitted over time. Lux is the measurement that's distance dependant, as light in a diverging beam looks dimmer because it's spread out more.
    In order to measure the radiant flux you have to be some finite distance from the source. A candela (lumen = cd*sr) is measured in a particular direction from the source. Direction implies some finite distance from the source or you couldn't measure the direction. That is why I said some "at least for some unspecified distance away from the light source". The distance isn't specified, is it?

    And, if you weren't blinded by your personal vendetta against me, you'd see that "Lux would be even better since it tells you more about how much light you are getting where," says exactly what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert View Post
    And to digress a bit, your use of a laser beam to illustrate light divergence was ridiculous because lasers typically diverge around 0.05 degrees, and light from bike headlights diverge around 15-20 degrees. Here's another incorrect statement: "If a laser beam were the same size from emitter to a target 50 or 60 feet away, we probably couldn't see it." Really?!? Care to be the subject of that experiment?
    0.05 degrees is not zero. Hence my statement of "even a laser beam diverges significantly over 50 to 70 feet," is still true...for laser beams. Additionally, the divergence of a bicycle headlight of around 15 to 20 degrees means that your premise of

    ... All you have to do is tilt the bike a tiny little bit, like at a stop light, and when the front wheel turns a bit the light is directed full force into the eyes of drivers waiting at the light across the intersection...
    is incorrect by your own admission.

    If a laser beam didn't diverge by a small amount, again by your own admission, do you really think that you could see a beam that is a millimeter wide (just a guess on the size, I haven't measured it) could easily be seen from 60 or 70 feet away? I don't know about you but I have a hard time finding a 1 mm dot from across a room

    The first rule of holes, sir, is to stop digging when you find yourself in one. You're down about 80 feet right now and seem to be dropping quickly
    Stuart Black
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    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
    Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
    Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
    An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.

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