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  1. #1
    Bike addict, dreamer AdamDZ's Avatar
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    Any ridewithgps.com users? Problems? Feedback request.

    I know there was a thread before but I'd like this one to be more focused. I really like this site. but I've been having persistent problems with it and I've been in touch with one of the developers. I'd like to see if/how it works for others. In particular those computer savvy riders who can provide useful technical information. They develop the site on Linux and it looks like they haven't done extensive Windows/Mac testing but it's supposed to work with Firefox better than IE.

    My problems relate to stability:

    - if I try to add a course point to a route or try to edit existing cue sheet the browser locks up and/or quits.

    - it locks up and quits often when I click on a spot where there is no routing information available and then quickly click somewhere else to correct.

    - random quits when scrolling, clicking on the map.

    I've replicated the problems under several configurations, including:

    Windows 7 Ultimate 64, Firefox 3.5.6, 3.5.7, Flash 9.x and 10.x including the latest.

    Windows 7 Ultimate 64, IE 8, Flash 9.x and 10.x including the latest (editing cue sheet works though)

    Windows XP Pro 32 SP3, Firefox 3.5.6, 3.5.7, Flash 9.x and 10.x including the latest.

    Windows XP Pro 32 SP3, IE 7 (IE6 doesn't work well at all), Flash 9.x and 10.x including the latest.

    Mac OSX 10.6.2, Firefox 3.5.6, 3.5.7, Flash 9.x and 10.x including the latest.

    So please provide some feedback. Say if it works well, or not, describe the problems, try to stay focused, if you never used this site please refrain from unnecessary comments, and include:

    Your Operating System version, including service packs and point updates.
    Exact version of your web browser.
    Exact version of Flash.
    Amount of RAM.

    If there is a decent amount of constructive feedback I'll email a link to this thread to the developers.

    Thanks,

    Adam

  2. #2
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    It wasn't a complete lockup for me, but it did take a heck of a long time to "Remove Segment" and "Add a Course Point" in the 1.04 version. The browser (both IE6 and Firefox) would freeze. If I waited about 3-4 minutes, I could actually complete the operation. It was still slow when they flipped to V1.05c, but I could actually get by. For whatever reason, I've always found it faster to redraw than edit the route anyway. Anyway, let me re-test v1.06.

    The computer's configuration is:
    Windows XP Pro SP2, Firefox 3.5.7, Adobe flash 10.

    If you really want me to give you a good test, post a link to a route that's giving you fits. Let's see if the map data has got something to do with it.

  3. #3
    Bike addict, dreamer AdamDZ's Avatar
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    Here is the last one I was working on:

    http://ridewithgps.com/routes/24410

    Also, notice how after ~42 miles it no longer calculates the distance and doesn't add any route points. I wanted to insert extra route points. I've done other rooutes too, however, didn't save them, and I had the same issues.

    Adam

  4. #4
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    XP 32b, SP3
    Firefox 3.5.7, flash 10
    2GB memory (laptop)

    Vista 64b SP1
    Firefox 3.5.7, flash 10
    6GB memory

    I have not had the problems that you've encountered. The map in question opened fine for me (but of course I am not able to edit it). I have done more complex routes before (more turns, longer distances) without any problems.

    I just added another route (manually) as a test on my WinXP machine. http://ridewithgps.com/routes/25354 Distance and elevation appear accurate & it's over 42 miles and has quite a few turns.
    Last edited by Greg_R; 01-11-10 at 04:20 PM.

  5. #5
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    Ok, testied it out on this machine (4GB). Here's my observations.

    1) The route drew ok with Cycling directions and followed the two bike paths correctly.
    2) My cue sheet looks ok, yours has some strange mileage values leading up to the No Co trailway (they should always be in ascending order)
    3) Went to add a course point - Computer hung for about 2 minutes.
    4) When I zoom out a ways, the course point thing works instantly (I think there's a problem when you're zoomed in)
    5) Remove complete segment had the same problem with #3 and #4 - also, the bike path confuses the remove complete segment, it removed the entire route from the turn onto the N Co Trail all the way til the end.
    6) The "Undo" button only appears when you create the route, not when you edit the route.

    I'll see if it locks up more on a PC with a little less RAM.

  6. #6
    Bike addict, dreamer AdamDZ's Avatar
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    Thanks. I'll see what happens when I zoom out.

    So maybe it's not crashing for me - it's just being really slow. I'll try waiting a few minutes. Still, pretty annoying. I'd like to be able to add my own course points and edit cue sheets.

    Adam

  7. #7
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    what processor and RAM are you using?

  8. #8
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    I've been using Ridewithgps for 2-3 weeks. I'd given up on the other available web-based tools and Mapsource is a joke for bicycles. RWG has been fairly solid at creating routes, but I've experienced the aforementioned problems creating course points. When zoomed in there seems to be a registration problem in addition to almost non-responsiveness in the course point designation mode. I know the designers are working this and related problems. This problem area also manifests with an inability to place a course point of one of two proximate segments.

    Another problem I've observed and reported regards the time stamps on tcx file course points which are used to sequence these points on the Garmin. The current version doesn't calculate a time stamp, but rather uses a fixed value. I expect a rapid resolution of this problem. In my case I'd like to stick with tcx files to retain the ability to look ahead at terrain.

    There is no telling whether the developers are in this for the long haul, but I believe the tool has promise and I'm going to stick with it
    Rick T
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  9. #9
    Bike addict, dreamer AdamDZ's Avatar
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    So that was a good catch: if I zoom out further I can indeed add course points. That is at least usable workaround. It is a much better tool that anything else I found on the Internet, I hope they stick with it. I'm willing to buy a paid membership if they squash the bugs. I will end up downloading the routes to my Garmin unit anyway, but yeah Map Source is useless for cycling

    A.
    Last edited by AdamDZ; 01-17-10 at 11:35 AM.

  10. #10
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    2013 BMC TMR01 custom build, 2013 Cannondale F29er, 2012 Cannondale CAAD10 custom build
    2011 Specialized Crux, 1980 Palo Alto custom build

  11. #11
    Bike addict, dreamer AdamDZ's Avatar
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    Yeah, I pretty much gave up on ridewithgps.com, too buggy. I'll check out bikeroutetoaster, thanks!

    Adam

  12. #12
    Codemonkey @ ridewithgps
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    Hey all, it's been a while since I have lurked on the forums, and finally noticed this post. We have been hard at work the last several months improving the stability and speed of our service. Many existing problems have been quashed.

    Additionally, I have started working on the project full-time. This is really speeding up our response times as well as our development. I really encourage anyone who had problems to come back and give us another shot. If you do have any problems, I should be able to get back to you and get everything squared away in a short amount of time. Before, I was finishing up my degree. Now I am all done, moved and settled in to take ridewithgps to the top!
    I love biking and I love programming, so I reallllly love working on http://ridewithgps.com

  13. #13
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    I like RidewithGPS better than bikeroutetoaster. Whoever the BRT guy is, he sort of spent a few weeks throwing up a site, then never improved on it. However, as far as making a .tcx or .gpx for an Edge 305 or 605/705 - well, bikeroutetoaster does that better.

    I'm not sure what BRT does in their GPX files, but the Turn by Turn functions on the Edge 705 are spot on every time. On the RWGPS routes, the Garmin gets a bit confused and tries some short cuts.

    On the courses, it's just plain easier to have the course points show up as a list and edit the list as Bikeroutetoaster has designed. Even being able to rename the course points is very handy, since the Edge 305 doesn't display the description.

    I sort of get the impression that the bikeroutetoaster designer owned an Edge 305 and designed the site around that. I'm not sure that the RidewithGPS folks are designing specifically with a Garmin Edge in mind. Anyway, they're both designing a hamburger - BRT has great meat and nothing on it. RWGPS has a lot more options to dress up your burger, but the meat isn't quite as good.

  14. #14
    Codemonkey @ ridewithgps
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    MarvelousMark: thanks for the praise and the breakdown between the differences. I first want to state that we are working towards greatly improving our export options. It's kinda tricky and is the biggest suggestion/question/complaint from users with every imaginable type of Garmin GPS unit. I have purchased a few of them out of pocket in order to make sure we can work with them, and that I know how to help a user with the most popular models. However, we plan on making a guide for each of the Edge bike computers explaining what the various file formats do, and we may tweak those file formats to work better with the individual types of Edge bike computers.

    As far as the BRT/RWGPS GPX route difference, I feel like you have just had better "luck" on BRT than on RWGPS, because neither can avoid the Edge 705's mind of its own. However, if I were to guess, I would say that if you use the "notify me 20 meters before turn" feature on BRT, that might make your 705 behave better as it has reinforcement to take the correct route. However, the silly engineers at garmin have no idea on what constitutes "good functionality" that they designed a damn bike GPS unit that attempts to cut your bike ride as short as possible if it sees a better way, and there is no way to turn it off! Zack has the 705 and has found the best way to avoid that is to use a GPX Track, and then follow the compass - when you have a turn approaching, the compass will point in the direction of the turn. You do however lose the turn-by-turn aspect, but you at least always know where to go. I have a 305 and a 500 myself, and much prefer the 305's way of handling turn by turn directions: it just beeps at you when you come near a turn, it doesn't attempt to route you to the next point!

    Also, you can edit the course points on RWGPS - click any row in the cuesheet to the left and that point will be highlighted on the route, within an editable box. Renaming it, changing the description and removing it are all possible. However, I do understand that working with cuesheets, as well as editing existing routes are both clunky and definitely pain points within our application. I am working towards improving them progressively over the next month.
    I love biking and I love programming, so I reallllly love working on http://ridewithgps.com

  15. #15
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    Yeah, Cullen. I'm trying to be constructive. Even if it's dumb luck, BRT just plain works consistently for routing. But I could pick on a bunch of other stuff, like no good way to organize or sort the routes. No way to share or post routes to social networks, no activity logging, no route editing, no color coding, etc that your site provides.

    My latest trick that works pretty well was to write my own VB script that takes your .tcx files and convert them to the .gpxx format that the bikehike.co.uk site provides. That makes the Garmin route between all the points on the .tcx vs just the turns/coursepoints on the GPX route. It also reduces the file size by 90%. Unfortunately, this method only works on certain units, such as the Edge 705.

    Otherwise, I can always load the course and the route at the same time, and if they differ, just stop navigation on the 705 and rely on the course. Anyway, I do recommend that people check out your site. I know you folks have been at it a while and the functionality is really coming along!

  16. #16
    Codemonkey @ ridewithgps
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelousMark View Post
    Yeah, Cullen. I'm trying to be constructive. Even if it's dumb luck, BRT just plain works consistently for routing. But I could pick on a bunch of other stuff, like no good way to organize or sort the routes. No way to share or post routes to social networks, no activity logging, no route editing, no color coding, etc that your site provides.

    My latest trick that works pretty well was to write my own VB script that takes your .tcx files and convert them to the .gpxx format that the bikehike.co.uk site provides. That makes the Garmin route between all the points on the .tcx vs just the turns/coursepoints on the GPX route. It also reduces the file size by 90%. Unfortunately, this method only works on certain units, such as the Edge 705.

    Otherwise, I can always load the course and the route at the same time, and if they differ, just stop navigation on the 705 and rely on the course. Anyway, I do recommend that people check out your site. I know you folks have been at it a while and the functionality is really coming along!
    I am actually playing with the GPXX format as part of improving our export options. Additionally, I am working on a cool feature - save your average speed at each grade for all activities you have uploaded, and use that to generate TCX files for virtual partner, and allow for a modifier. So, use your historical average speed at each grade, plus improve by 5% and export a TCX for a good virtual partner file. That'll be better than anything else out there, and pretty fun to write
    I love biking and I love programming, so I reallllly love working on http://ridewithgps.com

  17. #17
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    Okay, but... is there a way to get the "delete a section" feature to work? I was filled with glee when I successfully shifted the middle of a route to eliminate a turn by dragging -- but now there's a completely useless "turn here, ride half a mile, turn around" segment. I actually entertained thethought that *this* might be a place where that feature would actually work (it didn't on other routes). If I knew which part of the process was where to say a Hail Mary so it could think about it, that would help... or just to know that it works on X browser on Y OS so I shouldn't bother.
    I like the site -- but it's painful, rather often.

  18. #18
    Randomhead
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    seems like they have defeated some of the power of google maps because you can actually manage to move a route by dragging on vanilla google maps. I need to figure out how to delete points and keep the site from posting things on my facebook.

  19. #19
    Codemonkey @ ridewithgps
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    Woa, talk about back from the dead

    In regards to deleting a section from the map: we have 'mothballed' our original planner (the one on the site currently) and have been working hard on a complete ground-up rewrite of the mapping stuff. This time we are using Google's javascript version of their maps, so it will be compatible with ipads and the like. So, in a week or so we'll have gotten the new stuff live on the site and you should be able to chop things up much better.

    In regards to click/drag editing. We didn't "defeat" google maps, google maps actually doesn't come with a drag/drop editing feature. You have to write it by hand, and the one on the site right now isn't my finest work. We just finished implementing it in the new version of the planner which, like mentioned above, should go live in a week or so. It's much much more robust than the existing one.

    All said and done, the new version of the planner solves many outstanding bugs, and is providing us with a much more solid base to move forward with. It's hard to build on top of the existing mapping stuff because it's like a treefort that grew into a mansion. I don't want to keep adding stuff on! Instead, we've re-architected an actual mansion this time

    Sorry for the hassles!
    I love biking and I love programming, so I reallllly love working on http://ridewithgps.com

  20. #20
    Randomhead
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    thanks, I really like the site. I wouldn't complain, but I was trying to do variations on one route, and it was easier to start over. I guess I'll wait for the upgrades to do any more edits. No pressure or anything.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cullenking View Post
    Zack has the 705 and has found the best way to avoid that is to use a GPX Track, and then follow the compass - when you have a turn approaching, the compass will point in the direction of the turn. You do however lose the turn-by-turn aspect, but you at least always know where to go.
    I use gpx tracks created on third-party websites (BRT, RWGPS, GPSies, MMR, etc..) almost exclusively on a 705 (3.1 software) and it navigates them generating turn-by-turn instructions pretty well. The problem is it will occasionally take an off-road straight-line short cut between two arbitrary trackpoints skipping over lots of intervening on-road trackpoints for no apparent reason. It often even says, "Turn right(left) off-road" when it does this. AFAIK, nobody has figured out the reason or a solution to this problem.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
    I use gpx tracks created on third-party websites (BRT, RWGPS, GPSies, MMR, etc..) almost exclusively on a 705 (3.1 software) and it navigates them generating turn-by-turn instructions pretty well. The problem is it will occasionally take an off-road straight-line short cut between two arbitrary trackpoints skipping over lots of intervening on-road trackpoints for no apparent reason. It often even says, "Turn right(left) off-road" when it does this. AFAIK, nobody has figured out the reason or a solution to this problem.
    I've learned the hard way. Don't use the "cycling" option unless you have a mountain bike. Choose the "driving" option if you don't mind taking a longer route that keeps you on the pavement. Road bikes can't do some of the routes that the "cycling" choice will select.

  23. #23
    Codemonkey @ ridewithgps
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    You can also experiment with "Recalculate" in the routing settings menu. If you turn off recalculate, my understanding (I don't have a 705, this is from riding with people who do though) is that it will no longer do those shortcuts, but it will get confused and stop navigating you in the event you end up on a bike path that the internal maps don't have. After getting off the path, the GPS needs to be able to "recalculate" your position to get back on course. The newer firmware versions have a "prompted" setting for this, so you can keep it from doing it in non-optimal times.
    I love biking and I love programming, so I reallllly love working on http://ridewithgps.com

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